Causal Argument, Introduction

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salima
 
Reply Sun 15 Nov, 2009 07:46 pm
@Shostakovich phil,
shostakovich-
the reason i dont like the word created is because it has that sense of something created out of nothing. to me a better word might be transformed (although i like manifested the best). how could the absolute create something when everything was already there included in it? so i would say it manufactured, built, transfigured, any number of other words to escape the connotation of creation.

in essence, nothing can be created or destroyed, right? even before becoming, there is a potential contained within the absolute. so i think using the word created often causes problems in understanding, not to mention immediate discord with people who are against Creationism as a philosophy. they dont look any further and tend to discount everything without trying to understand it within their own terms.

to me this is a wonderful argument. what about theosophists, would they understand it you think? you just need to get it to the right people...you have done me a great service in filling in some gaps and untying some knots of my own ideas.
 
Shostakovich phil
 
Reply Sun 15 Nov, 2009 09:18 pm
@salima,
salima;103710 wrote:
Quote:

the reason i dont like the word created is because ... i would say it manufactured, built, transfigured, any number of other words to escape the connotation of creation ... discord with people who are against Creationism as a philosophy. they dont look any further and tend to discount everything without trying to understand it within their own terms.


Creationists are a stain on Christianity. Nowhere in the Bible can any proof be found to substantiate their stupidity. The first two versus in Genesis allow for an indefinite period of time elapsing between them. The key is: would a Supreme Being create the world in a state of confusion and disarry, as the second verse implies. Something happened in this unspecified period of time to cause the world to become disordered.

But your point is well taken.

Quote:
to me this is a wonderful argument. what about theosophists, would they understand it you think? you just need to get it to the right people...you have done me a great service in filling in some gaps and untying some knots of my own ideas


That's what I have to do, I guess. Keep trying to get it to the right people. That may mean experts on Kant.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Sun 15 Nov, 2009 09:34 pm
@Shostakovich phil,
Shostakovich;103686 wrote:


It is the Absolute alone that avoids begging the question: What came before?


Not "begging the question"; raising the question.
 
salima
 
Reply Sun 15 Nov, 2009 10:03 pm
@Shostakovich phil,
create:
transitive verb 1 : to bring into existence <God created the heaven and the earth - Gen 1:1(Authorized Version)>
2 a : to invest with a new form, office, or rank <was created a lieutenant> b : to produce or bring about by a course of action or behavior <her arrival created a terrible fuss> <create new jobs>
3 : cause, occasion <famine creates high food prices>
4 a : to produce through imaginative skill <create a painting> b : design <creates dresses>intransitive verb 1 : to make or bring into existence something new
2 : to set up a scoring opportunity in basketball <create off the dribble>

produce:
transitive verb 1 : to offer to view or notice
2 : to give birth or rise to : yield
3 : to extend in length, area, or volume <produce a side of a triangle>
4 : to make available for public exhibition or dissemination: as a : to provide funding for <search for backers to produce the film> b : to oversee the making of <will produce their new album>
5 a : to cause to have existence or to happen : bring about b : to give being, form, or shape to : make; especially : manufacture
6 : to compose, create, or bring out by intellectual or physical effort
7 : to cause to accrueintransitive verb : to bear, make, or yield something

form:
transitive verb 1 a : to give a particular shape to : shape or mold into a certain state or after a particular model <form the dough into a ball> <a state formed along republican lines> b : to arrange themselves in <the dancers formed a line> c : to model by instruction and discipline <a mind formed by classical education>
2 : to give form or shape to : fashion, construct
3 : to serve to make up or constitute : be an essential or basic element of
4 : develop, acquire <form a habit>
5 : to arrange in order : draw up
6 a : to assume an inflection so as to produce (as a tense) <forms the past in -ed> b : to combine to make (a compound word)intransitive verb 1 : to become formed or shaped
2 : to take form : come into existence : arise
3 : to take on a definite form, shape, or arrangement

manifest:
function: adjective

1 : readily perceived by the senses and especially by the sight
2 : easily understood or recognized by the mind : obvious


these are entries from merriam webster online. i like the usage of 'make manifest'

also form=to give shape to

produce=to give birth to, yield


create implies to bring into existence something new, which could be the same as yielded from existing elements or formed from available material within the absolute as well, but most people when they hear the word create relate to a sort of "abracadabra-presto!" kind of thing where there was nothing then something.
 
Shostakovich phil
 
Reply Sun 15 Nov, 2009 11:14 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;103723 wrote:
Not "begging the question"; raising the question.


That would be better, yes.

---------- Post added 11-15-2009 at 09:17 PM ----------

Salima: I'll keep in mind the possible alternatives if and when I do another rewrite. Somehow I sense the word 'create' is not what I want. You've pointed out to me why. People are quick to pounce upon a word ... as 'begging' the question, pointed out above ... should be 'raises' the question. I agree.
 
 

 
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