The Problem of Free Will

@xris,

xris;65864 wrote:

If you want to play a game of words do it with someone else not I.You know full well what free will is and the arguments for and against.If you say you believe in free will by any accepted meaning of the term, then so be it.If you wish to clarify your point of view be my guest and let the devil take the hindmost.

Are you suggesting that there is only a single precise definition of free will? If so, could you tell me what it is? You insist I know something but refuse to tell me what that something is.

@Satan phil,

Satan;65867 wrote:

Are you suggesting that there is only a single precise definition of free will? If so, could you tell me what it is? You insist I know something but refuse to tell me what that something is.

I would suppose that when someone, for instance, says that he married his wife "of his own free will", since I understand English, I would understand him as deny that anyone, or anything forced him to marry the woman who became his wife. He married her because he wanted to do so. Isn't that what you would understand too?

@kennethamy,

kennethamy;65893 wrote:

I would suppose that when someone, for instance, says that he married his wife "of his own free will", since I understand English, I would understand him as deny that anyone, or anything forced him to marry the woman who became his wife. He married her because he wanted to do so. Isn't that what you would understand too?

@Satan phil,

Satan;65910 wrote:

In my example, there is no threat to the groom. Indeed, he wants to marry the girl, so there is not compulsion, and so, in ordinary thought and language he is marrying her of his own free will. If this were a "shotgun marriage" he would not. I am not arguing anything about "metaphysical laws" whatever those are supposed to be. It was you who were talking about definitions of "free will" and I just pointed out that what is ordinarily means is simply not being compelled to do something, but doing it because you want to do it. According to some, even if you do something because you want to do it, and you are not under compulsion, it does not matter. You are still not acting freely. I find that view hard to understand. But it seems to me that you are wrong when you say that we do not have a fairly clear understanding of that free will is. It is just that philosophers object to that understanding.

@kennethamy,

kennethamy;65919 wrote:

But it seems to me that you are wrong when you say that we do not have a fairly clear understanding of that free will is. It is just that philosophers object to that understanding.

How can I be wrong about something I never said? What I said was, "Are you suggesting that there is only a single precise definition of free will?" and since then I still have not been given that definition. You also seem to be suggesting that there is only one definition of free will and everyone else that disagrees is wrong. What gives the authority behind this judgement and what exactly is that definition that seems so elusive?

@Satan phil,

Satan;65976 wrote:

How can I be wrong about something I never said? What I said was, "Are you suggesting that there is only a single precise definition of free will?" and since then I still have not been given that definition. You also seem to be suggesting that there is only one definition of free will and everyone else that disagrees is wrong. What gives the authority behind this judgement and what exactly is that definition that seems so elusive?

Why dont you give your view of free will? why dont you explain the differing views that you have encountered? The argument against free will is that everything happens because other events influenced your power of independent thought.Its become a question of QM deciding for some bizarre reason.Please dont play the ignorant new comer, you are aware of the dispute, put your feet in the puddle its muddy enough.

@xris,

xris;66023 wrote:

The argument against free will is that everything happens because other events influenced your power of independent thought.

There's no evidence that anything happens because of anything else.

@Satan phil,

Satan;66033 wrote:

There's no evidence that anything happens because of anything else.

For the life of me i cant understand your reasons for debating this subject.I believe we have free will.If you agree OK if you dont tell me why.

@xris,

xris;66035 wrote:

For the life of me i cant understand your reasons for debating this subject.I believe we have free will.If you agree OK if you dont tell me why.

Allow me to propose an objection I have just some time posted in the beginning of the thread. Every one chooses only what appears to be better for him at the moment of choice, right? In this case, it is impossible to choose anything...

@xris,

xris;66035 wrote:

For the life of me i cant understand your reasons for debating this subject.I believe we have free will.If you agree OK if you dont tell me why.

Neither side of the debate has convinced me they know how choices are made. All I can tell you is that I experience making choices and there is no evidence that these choices are made elsewhere. I guess the default position is freedom because unless there is anything we need to be free from, we have it. I cannot detect anything controlling my thoughts.

@Satan phil,

Satan;66061 wrote:

Neither side of the debate has convinced me they know how choices are made. All I can tell you is that I experience making choices and there is no evidence that these choices are made elsewhere. I guess the default position is freedom because unless there is anything we need to be free from, we have it. I cannot detect anything controlling my thoughts.

I think you are being clever by suggesting i should propose what my oppose rs are proposing and by so doing be the devils advocate.Cut to the chase and fly your flag..

@xris,

xris;66072 wrote:

I think you are being clever by suggesting i should propose what my oppose rs are proposing and by so doing be the devils advocate.Cut to the chase and fly your flag..

I don't know what else you want me to say. Are my choices made freely? Free from what? External control? I see nothing to be free from so there is no reason to believe there is anything controlling my thoughts. :perplexed:

@Satan phil,

The problem of free will is not easy to solve. Many philosophers and scientists are doing research in the field of neuroscience, but they still haven't gotten a positive answer yet. The question is whether or not we have conscious control over our behavior or is it subconscious? Most neuroscience studies seem to show that we don't have conscious control, and that our subconscious brains make the decision before we're aware of it being made. However, some say that there is enough time for the agent to consciously veto the action. This position was upheld by Benjamin Libet after his experiments on free will.

Philosopher and Scientist Dan Dennett criticizes Libet's experiment arguing that people will have to shift their attention from their intention to the clock, and that this introduces temporal mismatches between the felt experience of will and the perceived position of the clock hand. Dennett's view of free will is compatibilism with an evolutionary twist. Dennett believes that free will is the ability of the agent to anticipate likely consequences and make rational decisions to avoid certain consequences in the absense of coercion. He argues that we cannot escape determinism and causality; and that there is no need to escape these forces to have a logical conception of free will.

I'm personally with Dennett on the problem of free will. I also don't believe in separating the self from the brain or the mind. The brain is mechanical, but the idea that we have no say in how we "program" our brains to respond to given circumstances results from the belief that we are separate from our brains. You are your brain.

@hue-man,

I think there is vast difference between gut reaction,automatic reactions ,like someone throwing a ball at you and the considered actions of the "I".I think we all know those moments.

@elefunte,

elefunte wrote:

I come from a science background and ... I was wondering whether this forum could help explain to me some of the arguments for ...the concept of 'Free Will' and whether you yourself believe we as humans have free will and why you believe this.

Hi, elefunte

You will probably want to read this thread at The Ethics Forum which is highly-relevant to your concern:
http://www.philosophyforum.com/forum/philosophy-forums/branches-philosophy/ethics/4765-place-determinism-freedom-ethics.html
I trust you will find it quite helpful.

As to a reference to those dimensions of value that are mentioned in my first post in that thread, see: http://tinyurl.com/2mj5b3

or http://tinyurl.com/24swmd
Some have said the latter is easier to read. It is a briefer summary of major concepts from the document of the first-mentioned link. Both of them explain the value dimensions in an early chapter.

I would love to hear your opinion of the project suggested in the first treatise, and in the preface to the second essay, since you have an intimate acquaintance with (natural) science.

@elefunte,

This is a great problem. Not much I have read about. Sartre talks about free will or freedom as choices that we have. Whitehead talks about freedom as a point inside every being. This point has infinite rays pointing outwards in all directions giving each being unlimited direction.

@elefunte,

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