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The Problem of Free Will

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I come from a science background and am now studying philosophy (an introductory course) at another university. I find philosophy extremely interesting, but as I come from a science background, I sometimes find it hard to grasp some of the philosophical concepts and arguments raised in my course.

I was wondering whether this forum could help explain to me some of the arguments for and against the concept of 'Free Will' and whether you yourself believe we as humans have free will and why you believe this. It will be interesting to hear your thoughts on this in order to help me understand this topic a bit more so I can write an essay on it.

I really hope this forum can help me! Thanks in advance to all those who do!

http://forums.philosophyforums.com/templates/images_large%20print/smilies/biggrin.gif

P.S. Are there any references that I can read to enlighten me more on this topic 'The Problem of Free Will'?

@elefunte,

elefunte, great question...

First of all I like to mention it seems a little silly sometimes how philosophy can be a course of academics. Since to put it frankly, "Is so up in the air."

Was that a bad pun? Maybe for some but I like puns...

Anyways, for me I don't like the concept of free will. To me there is no way to side step it to say yes or no to it's existence. It is similar to fate, how can you prove fate when you can't side step it or escape it? Because any time you try to change it, someone can slip in the (forehead smacking) conclusion that, "It was your fate to change."

So for me, the concept of free will is just a silly debate over weather or not our actions have a purpose or meaning. To me, the only thing our actions have is consequences and/or gratitude. But they only seem to effect each other and not outside this existence for any measure that I can see or imagine.

To put it another way, if I step on a bug, who is going to get mad at me other than a bug enthusiasts, a Buddhist perhaps? or the bug itself? Anyone else would probably not care or point fingers at me. But if that bug were another person then perhaps I would get lots of fingers, sticks or guns pointed at me. So one life is worth more or has more meaning than another but what about it gives it more value? That is a better question in my opinion than, "Do we have free will?"

~thom

@elefunte,

elefunte wrote:

I come from a science background and am now studying philosophy (an introductory course) at another university. I find philosophy extremely interesting, but as I come from a science background, I sometimes find it hard to grasp some of the philosophical concepts and arguments raised in my course.

I was wondering whether this forum could help explain to me some of the arguments for and against the concept of 'Free Will' and whether you yourself believe we as humans have free will and why you believe this. It will be interesting to hear your thoughts on this in order to help me understand this topic a bit more so I can write an essay on it.

I really hope this forum can help me! Thanks in advance to all those who do!

P.S. Are there any references that I can read to enlighten me more on this topic 'The Problem of Free Will'?

The belief that Determinism is true (that every event has some cause with is sufficient for that event to occur) is probably the main reason that philosophers have denied the existence of free will. Free will is understood by some as the theory that a person who does some action, could have done something else. Determinism is supposed to be incompatible with free will because if Determinism is true, then no one could have done anything different from what he actually did do, since given the causes of his action, his action, the effect of those caused had to occur. There are three possible positions on this matter:
1. Determinism is true, and if determinism is true, then free will is false. (This view is often called, "hard determinism")
2. Determinism is false, and thus free will is possible. (This view is often called, "libertarianism")
3. Determinism is true, but determinism is compatible with free will.
(This view is often called, "compatibilism")
Notice that 1 and 2, (above) are both incompatibilist views, since despite the fact that 1 says there is no free will, and 2 says there is free will. both say that determinism and free will are incompatible with each other. And note that although 2 is an incompatibilist view, and 3 is a compatibilist view, they both of them assert the existence of free will, while 1, an incompatibilist view, says there is no free will.

For further reading:

Free will - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Free Will (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

@elefunte,

There could be no such thing as absolute free will, because you can't choose who will be born as, and even if God or something gave you the possibility you wouldn't be anyone yet, and if you are nothing you can't make choices. I hope you understand what I'm saying, it's a bit hazy... :not-so-fast:But I think/hope there is some free will, like what I'm going to think or do. It's limited of course, I can't choose not to eat without dying and can't fly by myself and so on.

@elefunte,

Many philosophers notice this problem. Though almost all of them are right in own way. In the sense that each of their sights by and large has the right to a life as reflects any small real aspect or nuance of a problem, but within the limits of any special cases and conditions.
According to psychological part of our human being we believe that we have free will(not all people, but just these who do not think about this problem). But, e.g. theologian-fatalist thinks that the faultless divine prediction of the future is incompatible with free will that's why it defines all future events, including human acts. I think if there is no existence of free will, so all our actions - the way to "known-before" result, and so our life is

PS. You can find a problem of free will in works of St.Augustine, Spinoza
Schopenhauer, Epicur and Immanuel Kant for sure.

@Unwritten,

Unwritten wrote:

Many philosophers notice this problem. Though almost all of them are right in own way. In the sense that each of their sights by and large has the right to a life as reflects any small real aspect or nuance of a problem, but within the limits of any special cases and conditions.
According to psychological part of our human being we believe that we have free will(not all people, but just these who do not think about this problem). But, e.g. theologian-fatalist thinks that the faultless divine prediction of the future is incompatible with free will that's why it defines all future events, including human acts. I think if there is no existence of free will, so all our actions - the way to "known-before" result, and so our life is

PS. You can find a problem of free will in works of St.Augustine, Spinoza
Schopenhauer, Epicur and Immanuel Kant for sure.

I think about the problem, and I think I have free will, and do many philosophers like David Hume, and John Locke, and recent philosophers like, Daniel Dennett (in his book, "Elbow Room"). I think I have free will because I can very often do as I want, and I am not forced or compelled to want what I want. So, I can choose between vanilla and chocolate ice-cream of my own free will. Even if all of our actions were known (by whom?) before we did them, why would that mean we did not do them of our own free will? Suppose I know that you are going to have at least one meal in the next two days (as I think I do know) does that mean that it was not up to you to have that meal? My knowing what you would do does not force you do do it. Does it?

@elefunte,

In a scientific sense there is no place for speculations. According to researches our deliberate choice is caused by impulses from body and there is a certain gap between they occur and we decide to choose something, i.e. become aware of our choice...
But this cannot reject existence of free will! We don't need to believe in it, this is not a belief, just as we don't need to believe that things exist, we just perceive them. There is a contradiction between so to say micro- and macrocosmos which cannot be overcome. We can observe others and make predictions concerning their actions but no one can observe himself. Everyone knows that now he can do whatever choice.

@Eudaimon,

Eudaimon wrote:

Everyone knows that now he can do whatever choice.

Everyone knows that, but only if it is true. But, if it is not true, then no one knows it.

@kennethamy,

kennethamy wrote:

Everyone knows that, but only if it is true. But, if it is not true, then no one knows it.

I suppose here we must define what means "to be true"... There are some things that do not need proofs, they are just obvious like material objects.

@Eudaimon,

Eudaimon wrote:

I suppose here we must define what means "to be true"... There are some things that do not need proofs, they are just obvious like material objects.

I don't think so. Whatever "true" means, isn't it true that you cannot know what is not true? So unless it is true in the first place, you cannot know it? And, of course, something can be true without its being proved true. In fact, it cannot be proved true unless it is true in the first place.

@kennethamy,

kennethamy wrote:

I don't think so. Whatever "true" means, isn't it true that you cannot know what is not true? So unless it is true in the first place, you cannot know it? And, of course, something can be true without its being proved true. In fact, it cannot be proved true unless it is true in the first place.

Is the freedom of will not true "in the first place"? I cannot imagine myself without it just as I cannot imagine that this PC does not exist.

@Eudaimon,

Eudaimon wrote:

Is the freedom of will not true "in the first place"? I cannot imagine myself without it just as I cannot imagine that this PC does not exist.

I was just pointing out that you cannot argue that I know that free will exists, so it is true, since unless it is true, in the first place, you cannot know it is true.

Whether or not you are able to imagine something exists really has nothing to do with whether it exists. It has only to do with your powers of imagination.

@kennethamy,

kennethamy wrote:

So, I can choose between vanilla and chocolate ice-cream of my own free will.

I think that such a small choices, like choosing somth like ice-cream is not expression of free will, I think that is discrete small choice that can complete free will; I think expression of free will must be more fundamental. Explanation of free will must be on hard choices; people have many opportunities, and have free will to choose anything they like, but in limit of their opportunities.

kennethamy wrote:

Even if all of our actions were known (by whom?) before we did them, why would that mean we did not do them of our own free will?

I was talking about known - actions. And for example we have situation: you need to buy a chocolate, so your actions are known before: you CAN BUY, you can LEAVE this need to buy, you can buy from all that variety that shops can propose you, or you can buy one chocolate, etc etc. So we have some numbers of actions, that are known before, according to your goal.

~Ana

@elefunte,

elefunte;62233 wrote:

I come from a science background and am now studying philosophy (an introductory course) at another university. I find philosophy extremely interesting, but as I come from a science background, I sometimes find it hard to grasp some of the philosophical concepts and arguments raised in my course.

I was wondering whether this forum could help explain to me some of the arguments for and against the concept of 'Free Will' and whether you yourself believe we as humans have free will and why you believe this. It will be interesting to hear your thoughts on this in order to help me understand this topic a bit more so I can write an essay on it.

I really hope this forum can help me! Thanks in advance to all those who do!

P.S. Are there any references that I can read to enlighten me more on this topic 'The Problem of Free Will'?

Might I suggest using the handy search function and perusing the 14,694 threads devoted to the (vanity of) 'freewill'.
Peace

@kennethamy,

kennethamy wrote:

I was just pointing out that you cannot argue that I know that free will exists, so it is true, since unless it is true, in the first place, you cannot know it is true.

Whether or not you are able to imagine something exists really has nothing to do with whether it exists. It has only to do with your powers of imagination.

I have to choose between two things now. In order to make that choice I need not know that free will exist.
Only side onlooker may assert that free will of others does not exist. Since I cannot be side onlooker of myself, I cannot say I do not have free will.

@Krumple,

Krumple wrote:

To put it another way, if I step on a bug, who is going to get mad at me other than a bug enthusiasts, a Buddhist perhaps? or the bug itself? Anyone else would probably not care or point fingers at me. But if that bug were another person then perhaps I would get lots of fingers, sticks or guns pointed at me. So one life is worth more or has more meaning than another but what about it gives it more value? That is a better question in my opinion than, "Do we have free will?"

~thom

Hello Krumple,
In all due respect, do you have a problem understanding the value of a human over a bug. I am sure you were trying to make a point. Do you honestly think we should question which has greater value?
William

---------- Post added at 12:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:58 AM ----------

Freewill is an all or nothing proposition. Either all have it or it doesn't exist. In a reality that gives any man the "right" to control the life of another. there is no free will. Freewill is a term that was meant to apply to the whole of mankind, not just the "privileged".

William

@William,

William wrote:

Hello Krumple,
In all due respect, do you have a problem understanding the value of a human over a bug. I am sure you were trying to make a point. Do you honestly think we should question which has greater value?
William

---------- Post added at 12:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:58 AM ----------

Freewill is an all or nothing proposition. Either all have it or it doesn't exist. In a reality that gives any man the "right" to control the life of another. there is no free will. Freewill is a term that was meant to apply to the whole of mankind, not just the "privileged".

William

Why can't I be free to have vanilla rather than chocolate ice-cream, and if I am in jail, behind bars, not be free to go to the movies if I like?

@elefunte,

This is an interesting question, of which I think merits more explanation of the phrase 'free will'... Is it simply our ability to do what we want? I want chocolate ice cream, so I'm gonna buy chocolate ice cream. Or is free will the ability to somehow ignore predestination. I am destined to buy chocolate ice cream, but i have full capability to get vanilla if I choose.

In order to ponder the question of free will, I think you also need to look at its opposite, which I think is predestination. Is everything already laid out for you? You will buy chocolate ice cream. You may want to buy chocolate ice cream, you may think it is your own choice to buy chocolate ice cream, but is it really?

I personally don't find any stock in predestination, therefore, I believe free will exists. But its a tough concept to wrap yourself around if you define free will as more than just the ability to do what you want.

@elefunte,

I don't think you can determine free will just because you can't determine it's opposite.

See the funny part here is that I can ask you, do you have a choice to neither pick chocolate or vanilla? I'll assume for a moment that you will say yes to this question.

The only time we discuss free will is dealing with some being you would call god. So I ask the same question of you, can you chose to neither accept nor reject this god? And most would say NO you fall into the category of rejection by refusing to choose.

Now how can both question 1 and question 2 have different answers when they are the exact same question? So let's be honest here, people only care about free will when the choices are neglectfully defined.

But I could nick pick and ask, well do you have the ability to not feel pain at will? No you don't. Do you have the ability to pick the time of your death? No, you don't. Do you have the ability to stop your experiencing? No, you don't.

So where is the free will in those?

@elefunte,

Ok I get your point. It all seems to be pointing to exactly what is the definition of free will?

Quote:

...I could nick pick and ask, well do you have the ability to not feel pain at will? No you don't. Do you have the ability to pick the time of your death? No, you don't. Do you have the ability to stop your experiencing? No, you don't.

If free will is defined as one's ability to do whatever they want, then as you described, the answer is obviously no.

Is free will the ability to do what you want? If so, than the answer is obviously yes.

Here's where it gets hairy. Is free will the ability want and act on that want. I'm not sure if that makes sense. Am I capable of actually wanting chocolate ice cream? Is that want really my want, or is that a feeling instilled in me by some higher power or destiny? Are our feelings our own? Do you have any control over what you want? So that more explains what I said earlier. Depending on your stand on predestination, and your definition of free will, the answer may vary.

I agree that free will usually turns up in discussions about God. The concept of free will almost seems dependent on the fact that there could be otherwise, i.e. a God that controls every thing and every emotion. If there is no God or fate or destiny, than free will as an idea doesn't really exist, although I think you would technically have it, because there is nothing to oppose it, nothing to take it away.

I'm kind of thinking out loud, so go ahead and rip that apart. I suppose I just don't understand the question. "Do we have free will?" I don't know. What exactly is free will?

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