respectful people vs obnoxious people

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1CellOfMany
 
Reply Tue 9 Mar, 2010 08:14 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;136823 wrote:
Suppose someone shouted expletives at you and your family - would you feel justified being rude to that person? That is, would you feel they deserved rudeness? Does your being rude to that person after what they did mean that you don't have self-respect?

We often feel that others deserve punishment for things they do, and rudeness is just one sort of punishment. Now, I'm not saying that I often think people deserve my rudeness (as I mentioned earlier), but it is easy to see how people could consider rudeness deserved at times.

Do you think there is ever an instance when rudeness is deserved?

You have brought up some interesting issues with this post!

First, if a person shouted expletives at you and your family, I think that most people (including myself) would feel an impulse to be rude in return. The real problem is, however, that most people who come on rude from the beginning WANT you to be rude in return. They made the opening move of being rude, and a rude response is very predictable, and gives them an opening for their next move. In the end, the person who started the game is going to get what they want, which could even be a good excuse to kick the **** out of you, probably with the help of his buddies, and do whatever they want to with your wife and kids. (While my example may sound extreme, it is not unheard of in some neighborhoods.) So I would say that they do not deserve the GIFT of your rudeness! Don't do them the favor of being rude!

In forums, there are many reasons why one person might be rude to another, as has been discussed: To show impatience with another person's obtuseness, to make someone reconsider what they have said, to denigrate another person's opinion or post, to start a fight (instead of a reasoned discussion), as an emotional reaction to another person's rudeness, to bully someone who seems weak, and for any number of other reasons.

I believe that it is wise look to the end of things, that is to the likely outcomes, before beginning. So my question is, are there circumstance where one person being rude to another had a positive outcome? I can think of a few, but the positive outcome arose because the recipient of the rudeness responded with reason, respect, courtesy, and even kindness. I think that the best response to rudeness is exemplary courtesy, as it will let the rude one know that you respect them despite their behavior. Courtesy is also what I like receive from others, so it is in my best interest to give it first and persistently.
 
reasoning logic
 
Reply Tue 9 Mar, 2010 08:35 pm
@1CellOfMany,
1CellOfMany;138051 wrote:
You have brought up some interesting issues with this post!

First, if a person shouted expletives at you and your family, I think that most people (including myself) would feel an impulse to be rude in return. The real problem is, however, that most people who come on rude from the beginning WANT you to be rude in return. They made the opening move of being rude, and a rude response is very predictable, and gives them an opening for their next move. In the end, the person who started the game is going to get what they want, which could even be a good excuse to kick the **** out of you, probably with the help of his buddies, and do whatever they want to with your wife and kids. (While my example may sound extreme, it is not unheard of in some neighborhoods.) So I would say that they do not deserve the GIFT of your rudeness! Don't do them the favor of being rude!

In forums, there are many reasons why one person might be rude to another, as has been discussed: To show impatience with another person's obtuseness, to make someone reconsider what they have said, to denigrate another person's opinion or post, to start a fight (instead of a reasoned discussion), as an emotional reaction to another person's rudeness, to bully someone who seems weak, and for any number of other reasons.

I believe that it is wise look to the end of things, that is to the likely outcomes, before beginning. So my question is, are there circumstance where one person being rude to another had a positive outcome? I can think of a few, but the positive outcome arose because the recipient of the rudeness responded with reason, respect, courtesy, and even kindness. I think that the best response to rudeness is exemplary courtesy, as it will let the rude one know that you respect them despite their behavior. Courtesy is also what I like receive from others, so it is in my best interest to give it first and persistently.



Yes I do believe you are right! As crazy as it may seem to some. [I think that the best response to rudeness is exemplary courtesy, as it will let the rude one know that you respect them despite their behavior.] Many rude people will calm down when they act out, when there emotions are cooled by your responce. Not all rude people are evil! who knows maybe none of them are evil. It may only be that their minds respond differently to stress than ours do and when they see that you are a careing person they do tend to show respect back. At least from my experience. I am sure that there are exemptions to this rule but I would think that it would be good advice.Smile
 
HexHammer
 
Reply Wed 10 Mar, 2010 05:07 am
@reasoning logic,
I'll divide obnoxiousness into 2 parts.

Psycosis
Constructive

Psycotic obnoxiousness (dunno if it's actually a valid psycoligically explenation)
- when obnoxiousness doesn't tak into account for ethics, moral and law, only really for selfgratification.

Constructive obnoxiousness
- when in cutthroat enviroment it is nessesary to gain/achive a goal/purpose, else you will get nowhere and fail.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Wed 10 Mar, 2010 07:14 am
@reasoning logic,
reasoning logic;138058 wrote:
Yes I do believe you are right! As crazy as it may seem to some. [I think that the best response to rudeness is exemplary courtesy, as it will let the rude one know that you respect them despite their behavior.] Many rude people will calm down when they act out, when there emotions are cooled by your responce. Not all rude people are evil! who knows maybe none of them are evil. It may only be that their minds respond differently to stress than ours do and when they see that you are a careing person they do tend to show respect back. At least from my experience. I am sure that there are exemptions to this rule but I would think that it would be good advice.Smile


Exemplary courtesy will make them think you are mocking them, and they will get even ruder. And they will be right.
 
jgweed
 
Reply Wed 10 Mar, 2010 07:18 am
@reasoning logic,
The mark of a gentleman with good manners is to ignore the bad manners of others.
 
HexHammer
 
Reply Wed 10 Mar, 2010 07:37 am
@reasoning logic,
Uh, forgot the respectful people.

There are the gentelmen who are raised well, then there's the sissies that are just too vain to step in.
 
William
 
Reply Wed 10 Mar, 2010 11:13 am
@reasoning logic,
jgweed;138227 wrote:
The mark of a gentleman with good manners is to ignore the bad manners of others.


Yes, John but even a gentle man has limits. It is one thing here in the protective domain where one can hide behind "mommy's skirt" than in a real life situation. In real life the rude get away with it because for erroneous reasons they are in authority and to react combatively would result in greater loss and he who is the recipient of such offensive speech would not be able to meet the obligations he has for those in his care.

One thing I did learn in sales is to succeed one had to have a great deal of knowledge of other people. Now I am talking about "direct sales", not the over the counter variety. If you didn't know people, you starved to death, ha! Getting to know people is a life long chore I imposed on myself. I knew I couldj't be like them so it was imperative for me to understand them.

The rude could care less and there are reasons why they could care less. They have never been truly cared for themselves and have no conception of what the word respect means. There are some enterprises where rude is a asset. They only hire the weak who have no recourse and place them in positions that can be easily replaced by another and they are forced to "grin and bear the burden". Like I mentioned the rude are getting even in that now they are in a position where they can "dish out" what they have been forced eat all their lives. In that respect, they have my sympathy.

Yet it is the hardest thing in the world I can do is tolerate them, especially when their abuse is leveled at another. It is so very difficult for me to stand by and watch. The fact that I realize that, gives me some solace so I can continue to work on finding resolutions that will enable me to perhaps end such needless and offensive behavior. The problem is obnoxious people listen to no one. This may not be totally accurate but they offer little thanks to anyone for that would show a sign of weakness and they feel they are not weak and over compensate by being obnoxious. The inferior trying to be superior. They have been scolded all their life, now they can scald others. Sad!

William
 
Fido
 
Reply Wed 10 Mar, 2010 12:19 pm
@reasoning logic,
I can't say that civility has any natural limits... It is just a form, but it is a form with a long history among all people... One day a man might serve another his best, and the next be killing him, but the little offering of peace and hospitality may often have ended the need to attack first, or attack at all...Just as with all forms the object is common survival... What are we here for??? I think it is to find a common way toward a common goal... Civility is required, respect and equality to...If you want to let your gonads speak for you, you may be on the wrong forum...Respect is in order, and though I am kind of a joker in the deck, and I am inclined to rag on people, I hope it is taken as intended, in good spirits, wishing well to all...The truth is non partisan...It is the same for king and commoner... There is no point in getting all emotional and digging in the heels...Time will decide what the truth may be...Let everyone voice their doubts...
 
Night Ripper
 
Reply Wed 10 Mar, 2010 12:29 pm
@reasoning logic,
One can be obnoxious even with a smile, calm voice and all the other hallmarks of being polite, if one deliberately misinterprets what someone else is saying, quote it in a way so as to make it seem absurd, treat the other person as if they know nothing or just say disingenuous things in general.
 
William
 
Reply Wed 10 Mar, 2010 12:53 pm
@Fido,
Fido;138328 wrote:
I am kind of a joker in the deck, and I am inclined to rag on people, I hope it is taken as intended, in good spirits, wishing well to all...The truth is non partisan...It is the same for king and commoner... There is no point in getting all emotional and digging in the heels...Time will decide what the truth may be...Let everyone voice their doubts...


I agree Fido. Like I have offered before, intent is difficult to recognize in a venue such as this. Eye to eye, in some respects, among friends, it is tolerated when one, as you say "rags" another. Still it is a rag and only friends excuse it. That's permissible and I do that too, but all I communicate with indicates no harm intended. We don't have those here. Words and how we utilize them is all we have.

When I ventured into these domains I was angry because what came to me was rather easy; why was it so difficult for others? I have calmed down immeasurably since then and am understanding how to use and understand words. Words, in many cases, can do so much more harm than a knife in the back ever could. Those wounds sometimes never heal especially if they come from a parent. You'd be surprised how so very many do.

Thanks Fido for your very honest response. I am not sure exactly who you were addressing; I just thought I would offer my comments just in case you were referring to something I offered.

William
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Wed 10 Mar, 2010 01:05 pm
@reasoning logic,
deepthot wrote:
You have conditioned yourself to respond that way, by telling yourself things like "That's just the way it is." "I musn't let that party get away with such talk."Two wrongs make a right" ... or other fallacious beliefs that you cannot logically prove.


There is nothing I have to "logically prove", whatever you mean by that. You mean you would like me to write an argument out for you?

If someone curses at my girlfriend, I believe they would deserve my rudeness. What about that don't you understand, or do you feel has to be "logically proven"?

---------- Post added 03-10-2010 at 02:14 PM ----------

1CellOfMany wrote:

First, if a person shouted expletives at you and your family, I think that most people (including myself) would feel an impulse to be rude in return. The real problem is, however, that most people who come on rude from the beginning WANT you to be rude in return. They made the opening move of being rude, and a rude response is very predictable, and gives them an opening for their next move. In the end, the person who started the game is going to get what they want, which could even be a good excuse to kick the **** out of you, probably with the help of his buddies, and do whatever they want to with your wife and kids. (While my example may sound extreme, it is not unheard of in some neighborhoods.) So I would say that they do not deserve the GIFT of your rudeness! Don't do them the favor of being rude!


Oh, they'd receive a gift alright...
 
scdevey
 
Reply Wed 10 Mar, 2010 03:42 pm
@reasoning logic,
People only have as much power over you as you give them. I understand that rude people have had experiences that have reinforced rude behavior in their lives. I don't blame them for it, I just realize that these types of people are not the type of people I want to be around.

Although this is a great first step in eliminating most of the encounters you'd have with rudeness, rude people obviously cannot be fully avoided. I personally feel that the best reaction to a one time situation with a rude person is to just laugh it off. I feel that rudeness is very very rarely warranted, so I just look at the person and think "why?" Then it becomes almost humorous that someone would feel like being rude in this particular situation is not only warranted but downright necessary. They're my little cosmic punchline. Is that rudeness in return? I'm not sure, that's up to you to decide. I'm not laughing in their faces most of the time... although this is quite the shock to them. (Side story, you can skip this if you want. I worked at a call center that handled the payment side of a service as a manager. Obviously when you get into money issues, people get very angry. I would have to take those wonderful calls. One time I had to take a call from a guy who told me that he and his buddies were going to come skin me and anyone that worked at my company alive. At this point, I couldn't contain myself any more and I burst out laughing. I told him that if any of our employees turned up skinned alive we'd know who to look for.) I've found this is the only way that I can deal with situations like this without the poison of bitterness seeping in to me. I'm sure we've all had experiences where someone was just outstandingly rude to you and hours after the encounter you find yourself just seething with anger over the situation. What you need to understand is that in a situation like this, the rude person has won! S/he has accomplished exactly what they wanted to do. So don't give them that kind of power in your life.
 
William
 
Reply Wed 10 Mar, 2010 04:29 pm
@scdevey,
scdevey;138379 wrote:
People only have as much power over you as you give them. I understand that rude people have had experiences that have reinforced rude behavior in their lives. I don't blame them for it, I just realize that these types of people are not the type of people I want to be around.

Although this is a great first step in eliminating most of the encounters you'd have with rudeness, rude people obviously cannot be fully avoided. I personally feel that the best reaction to a one time situation with a rude person is to just laugh it off. I feel that rudeness is very very rarely warranted, so I just look at the person and think "why?" Then it becomes almost humorous that someone would feel like being rude in this particular situation is not only warranted but downright necessary. They're my little cosmic punchline. Is that rudeness in return? I'm not sure, that's up to you to decide. I'm not laughing in their faces most of the time... although this is quite the shock to them. (Side story, you can skip this if you want. I worked at a call center that handled the payment side of a service as a manager. Obviously when you get into money issues, people get very angry. I would have to take those wonderful calls. One time I had to take a call from a guy who told me that he and his buddies were going to come skin me and anyone that worked at my company alive. At this point, I couldn't contain myself any more and I burst out laughing. I told him that if any of our employees turned up skinned alive we'd know who to look for.) I've found this is the only way that I can deal with situations like this without the poison of bitterness seeping in to me. I'm sure we've all had experiences where someone was just outstandingly rude to you and hours after the encounter you find yourself just seething with anger over the situation. What you need to understand is that in a situation like this, the rude person has won! S/he has accomplished exactly what they wanted to do. So don't give them that kind of power in your life.


Thanks for that little side bar, scedvey, but that's not rude, that's anger. there's a huge difference. Oh and by they way you handled that situation well. Rude hurts without motive. Yes one can be rude and angry but the anger comes from being rude to begin with. Name calling is probably the most evident and the most common.

william
 
scdevey
 
Reply Wed 10 Mar, 2010 04:52 pm
@William,
William;138412 wrote:
Thanks for that little side bar, scedvey, but that's not rude, that's anger. there's a huge difference. Oh and by they way you handled that situation well. Rude hurts without motive. Yes one can be rude and angry but the anger comes from being rude to begin with. Name calling is probably the most evident and the most common.

william



I can see what you're saying, however... I think the motivation to be rude is always anger. I think if you watch people, you notice that the people that are quick to anger are also the people who are consistently rude. In my mind, being rude is an outlet for anger whether or not the person you're being rude to is the cause of that anger.
 
deepthot
 
Reply Wed 10 Mar, 2010 06:58 pm
@reasoning logic,
Words Can Heal

The above link is relevant to the topic.


John is very wise, as usual, when he describes the qualities of a gentleman.


Rob, You really started an important discussion. Good work.
 
1CellOfMany
 
Reply Wed 10 Mar, 2010 08:08 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;138355 wrote:
---

Oh, they'd receive a gift alright...


So, ya mean you're packin' a 38 or somthin'?

Zetherin vs Rudeboy part 2:

:big-guns: :surrender:
 
reasoning logic
 
Reply Thu 11 Mar, 2010 03:33 pm
@HexHammer,
HexHammer;138202 wrote:
I'll divide obnoxiousness into 2 parts.

Psycosis
Constructive

Psycotic obnoxiousness (dunno if it's actually a valid psycoligically explenation)
- when obnoxiousness doesn't tak into account for ethics, moral and law, only really for selfgratification.

Constructive obnoxiousness
- when in cutthroat enviroment it is nessesary to gain/achive a goal/purpose, else you will get nowhere and fail.


Be careful out there having fun with Constructive obnoxiousness as you may find someone out there that not only thinks of the same evil thoughts as you or me may be able to think up, but occasionaly there are some people out there that will even act them out.

A short story, Many years ago when I was 20 We got a new shop manager who seem to come across a little rude at times. Well it seemed that one of the other mechanics had enough of him and put battery acid in his coke. Well you can just imagine what the response from the manager was. Well anyway the disturbed mechanic seemed to be ready for such a response as he had a large cup [about a quart] of gas waiting for him and threw it at the manager and had his lighter in his hand. luckly it did not go any further than that, but you hear every day that someone dies from conflicts such as this. I hope that these kinds of things never happen to you. I have relatives that I get along with very well, that I also hope do not come into situations as this, as they seem to anger easy. I believe that they may be at a higher risk of pushing the buttons of someone who is disturbed more than what they are.Smile
Reasoning Self Logic
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Thu 11 Mar, 2010 03:47 pm
@1CellOfMany,
1CellOfMany;138484 wrote:
So, ya mean you're packin' a 38 or somthin'?

Zetherin vs Rudeboy part 2:

:big-guns: :surrender:


No, no, I give people only gifts they deserve, my friend. The person wouldn't deserve to die simply because they were rude to my family. But I would sure be rude back.
 
deepthot
 
Reply Fri 12 Mar, 2010 12:58 am
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;138716 wrote:
No, no, I give people only gifts they deserve, my friend. The person wouldn't deserve to die simply because they were rude to my family. But I would sure be rude back.


jeepers, in another thread, taught me that there is a traditional teaching that concludes with this quote: "The wise treat all with equal compassion"

....Something to consider here......


I would add this thought: The wise extend their 'ethical radius' and sweep in more, and ever more, as part of their family.


I still have not learned your criteria, Zetherin, for deserving or meriting. If I am violent to some minority - say, to Mexicans in the USA - where do I rate on the deserve scale? How about if I am rude to someone outside "your family"? Do I then still have merit? How much? What if one psychologically abuses his (or her) own child by yelling harshly at his son? Where does s/he rank on the merit-scale? Etc.
 
reasoning logic
 
Reply Sat 13 Mar, 2010 08:00 pm
@deepthot,
deepthot;138881 wrote:
jeepers, in another thread, taught me that there is a traditional teaching that concludes with this quote: "The wise treat all with equal compassion"

....Something to consider here......


I would add this thought: The wise extend their 'ethical radius' and sweep in more, and ever more, as part of their family.


I still have not learned your criteria, Zetherin, for deserving or meriting. If I am violent to some minority - say, to Mexicans in the USA - where do I rate on the deserve scale? How about if I am rude to someone outside "your family"? Do I then still have merit? How much? What if one psychologically abuses his (or her) own child by yelling harshly at his son? Where does s/he rank on the merit-scale? Etc.
Is this your quote Deepthot? I believe that this will be a famous historical quote if it is not already! The wise extend their 'ethical radius' and sweep in more, and ever more, as part of their family Smile
 
 

 
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