respectful people vs obnoxious people

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kennethamy
 
Reply Fri 5 Mar, 2010 04:06 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;136048 wrote:
On second thought, I agree. "Justified" wasn't the proper word, as that would imply my action were right or just. It is still wrong to act in that way, even if my case is understandable. I should have said "excusable". I think, at times, being rude is excusable.


Some people, though, deserve rudeness. In that case, it would be justifiable. Unless you believe that no one deserves rudeness. Bernard Maidoff comes to mind as someone who deserves rudeness. I remember being intentionally rude to some people because I thought they deserved it.
 
deepthot
 
Reply Sat 6 Mar, 2010 02:30 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;136633 wrote:
...I remember being intentionally rude to some people because I thought they deserved it.


Respectfully, I would remind you, that that says more about you than it does about them.

As I see it, a person with self-respect would not stoop to such behavior.


{p.s. NO OFFENSE INTENDED; please do not take any. Do not wear any 'suit' that doesn't fit.}
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Sat 6 Mar, 2010 02:44 am
@deepthot,
deepthot;136822 wrote:
Respectfully, I would remind you, that that says more about you than it does about them.

As I see it, a person with self-respect would not stoop to such behavior.


{p.s. NO OFFENSE INTENDED; please do not take any. Do not wear any 'suit' that doesn't fit.}


Suppose someone shouted expletives at you and your family - would you feel justified being rude to that person? That is, would you feel they deserved rudeness? Does your being rude to that person after what they did mean that you don't have self-respect?

We often feel that others deserve punishment for things they do, and rudeness is just one sort of punishment. Now, I'm not saying that I often think people deserve my rudeness (as I mentioned earlier), but it is easy to see how people could consider rudeness deserved at times.

Do you think there is ever an instance when rudeness is deserved?
 
deepthot
 
Reply Sat 6 Mar, 2010 03:09 am
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;136823 wrote:
Suppose someone shouted expletives at you and your family - would you feel justified being rude to that person? That is, would you feel they deserved rudeness? Does your being rude to that person after what they did mean that you don't have self-respect?

We often feel that others deserve punishment for things they do, and rudeness is just one sort of punishment.

Do you think there is ever an instance when rudeness is deserved?


No. And no.

You raise the topic of punishment and that is an entire thread (or full-length book) in itself.
I believe we should be very careful about taking punishment into our own hands. Let a well-designed system of Criminal Justice do it. See the pointed suggestions of Dr. Karl Menninger, in his classic, THE CRIME OF PUNISHMENT.

I don't know how those speaking of what is "deserved" measure what one "deserves." I live by the precept, "Judge not that ye be not judged."
What is your definition of "to deserve" without going around in circles, such as by offering synonyms?
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
Reply Sat 6 Mar, 2010 03:11 am
@deepthot,
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Sat 6 Mar, 2010 03:25 am
@reasoning logic,
deepthot wrote:
What is your definition of "to deserve" without going around in circles, such as by offering synonyms?


It is not always wrong to use synonyms in definitions. A circular definition is one which uses the word in the definition, just for the record. But for the sake of this discussion, I am comfortable using "to deserve" to mean: to merit. Remember the definition of "deserve" and what you think people deserve or do not deserve, are two different things. If you'd like to discuss the latter, I'm not interested. I don't mean that rudely, I just do not feel like bickering over what you feel people do not deserve.

My point was that, regardless of your beliefs, I think it's easy to understand why people sometimes think rudeness is deserved. But perhaps your beliefs do not allow you to understand that. And if that be the case, then do not fret; I will not try to convince you.

Fil. Albuquerque wrote:
I could state without shadow of a doubt that all the people with who I already had a dispute on some issue, obviously fully deserve and have my respect not just as as human beings, but also as fellow philosophers and companions in search for enlightenment and self improving conditions.


Good! And I hope they feel the same about you.
 
Jebediah
 
Reply Sat 6 Mar, 2010 10:00 am
@Zetherin,
kennethamy;136633 wrote:
Some people, though, deserve rudeness. In that case, it would be justifiable. Unless you believe that no one deserves rudeness. Bernard Maidoff comes to mind as someone who deserves rudeness. I remember being intentionally rude to some people because I thought they deserved it.


Zetherin;136823 wrote:

We often feel that others deserve punishment for things they do, and rudeness is just one sort of punishment. Now, I'm not saying that I often think people deserve my rudeness (as I mentioned earlier), but it is easy to see how people could consider rudeness deserved at times.


Sure but when is it deserved? And when is it worthwhile being rude?

I don't think you can just stop at the "here is a person we all agree deserves rudeness" stage. The relevant issue for this forum is whether it you can be justifiable (or excusably) rude with regards to posts being "unclear" or "using bad arguments" or as Pyrrho put it:

Pyrrho wrote:
And there is also the possibility of someone asking for others to be rude, by deliberately provoking them. This can be done by reveling in stupid nonsensical gibberish while pretending such foolishness is profound philosophy. This may be especially provoking to someone who has devoted his or her life to the study of philosophy, as it is, in a manner of speaking, making a mockery of one's life's work.


I can understand that. But this is a forum, to scroll past a post takes a flick of a finger. There are a couple people whose posts I do that for. What I generally think if I get the urge to be snide is:


  • I don't actually want to upset this person
  • I don't know them or where they are coming from
  • On the whole, spending time being snide is unpleasant.
  • If I actually wanted to convince them to change their mind, being rude is counterproductive.


When you lay it out like that it's hard to see a good reason for being rude. Although I admit, I get some pleasure out of defeating the urge (that I see as a bad thing) and either moving on or trying to post something more worthwhile. That makes it easier.

Posting this makes me worry I said something snotty recently that I just don't remember :perplexed:
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Sat 6 Mar, 2010 10:21 am
@deepthot,
deepthot;136822 wrote:
Respectfully, I would remind you, that that says more about you than it does about them.

As I see it, a person with self-respect would not stoop to such behavior.


{p.s. NO OFFENSE INTENDED; please do not take any. Do not wear any 'suit' that doesn't fit.}



Well, I gave one example of when I thought rudeness would be justified. I think that those who were swindled by Maidoff would be justified in being rude to him. And the person I was intentionally rude to, had been trying to swindle me. I think that such persons deserved rudeness. Why don't you?
 
reasoning logic
 
Reply Sat 6 Mar, 2010 11:06 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;136871 wrote:
Well, I gave one example of when I thought rudeness would be justified. I think that those who were swindled by Maidoff would be justified in being rude to him. And the person I was intentionally rude to, had been trying to swindle me. I think that such persons deserved rudeness. Why don't you?

I can surely see why this would make you upset, as this would be a emotional responcse, but to me a eye for a eye seems conterproductive even though it may seem to relieve the stress that has been caused. but at what cost?Smile
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Sat 6 Mar, 2010 11:41 am
@reasoning logic,
Jebediah wrote:
Sure but when is it deserved? And when is it worthwhile being rude?


Isn't that a personal question? That would seem to spawn a rather long discussion, which probably wouldn't be worthwhile, by the way. I mean, I can give you examples of when I think it would be deserved, but you can easily just discard them.

reasoning logic wrote:
I can surely see why this would make you upset, as this would be a emotional responcse, but to me a eye for a eye seems conterproductive even though it may seem to relieve the stress that has been caused. but at what cost?


If someone ever curses at my girlfriend, I will curse at them back (I will be rude). That's just the way it is. Some people deserve things. If you disagree, that's fine. And I personally understand your position. But I think you should be able to understand this position.
 
Jebediah
 
Reply Sat 6 Mar, 2010 12:45 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;136881 wrote:
Isn't that a personal question? That would seem to spawn a rather long discussion, which probably wouldn't be worthwhile, by the way. I mean, I can give you examples of when I think it would be deserved, but you can easily just discard them.


How is it personal, compared to any discussion of ethics? We do more than just list rules of what we think is moral and immoral, and discard them if we don't agree.
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Sat 6 Mar, 2010 12:47 pm
@Jebediah,
Jebediah;136895 wrote:
How is it personal, compared to any discussion of ethics? We do more than just list rules of what we think is moral and immoral, and discard them if we don't agree.


I think you are correct. I just don't want to discuss it, but I'm sure everyone else in the thread will.
 
Jebediah
 
Reply Sat 6 Mar, 2010 12:52 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;136898 wrote:
I think you are correct. I just don't want to discuss it, but I'm sure everyone else in the thread will.


I see. It just seems immensely practical to me compared to the lengthy discussions we have on whether it is right send a trolley in one direction if it kills less people.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Sat 6 Mar, 2010 12:58 pm
@reasoning logic,
reasoning logic;136876 wrote:
I can surely see why this would make you upset, as this would be a emotional responcse, but to me a eye for a eye seems conterproductive even though it may seem to relieve the stress that has been caused. but at what cost?Smile


The question is not whether I was upset (which I was) nor about "eye-for-eye", but whether he deserved rudeness. Or whether you thought that Maidoff deserved rudeness from his victims. You would agree, wouldn't you, that he did not deserve any politeness from his victims. Of course, you might think that although Maidoff did deserve rudeness, still, it would be better for no one to be rude, even if rudeness was deserved. That is, of course, a different issue.
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Sat 6 Mar, 2010 01:02 pm
@Jebediah,
Jebediah;136904 wrote:
I see. It just seems immensely practical to me compared to the lengthy discussions we have on whether it is right send a trolley in one direction if it kills less people.


Well, I have not thought it through. I do not know exactly how I feel regarding the matter. I know for sure I think that rudeness can be excusable, not to be confused with justified. That is, even if I come to the conclusion that no one ever deserves rudeness and that being rude is never the right thing to do, I would excuse people from being held accountable for that wrong action.

For instance, if I had a daughter, and someone raped my daughter, I would find many things, like my being rude to the person who just raped my daughter, excusable.
 
reasoning logic
 
Reply Sat 6 Mar, 2010 01:11 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;136881 wrote:
Isn't that a personal question? That would seem to spawn a rather long discussion, which probably wouldn't be worthwhile, by the way. I mean, I can give you examples of when I think it would be deserved, but you can easily just discard them.



If someone ever curses at my girlfriend, I will curse at them back (I will be rude). That's just the way it is. Some people deserve things. If you disagree, that's fine. And I personally understand your position. But I think you should be able to understand this position.

I would like to see a civil conversation on this matter that zetherin is talking about, The + and - of this way of thinking. I do know that it is hard to restrain myself from this approach and I fail at times. Maybe I am wrong but if we all were rude back toward each other it may seem to be a crazy world. Think about your children and all of your descendents that will follow after you. If you teach that rude is bad no mater what to your kids then you helped to stop rudeness to a degree. I do doubt that it will ever go away completely but who knows maybe 2,000 years from now your teaching may have changed the minds of of a few thousand people all by the simple idea that you taught your kids. Could you imagine if say a few thousand other people took the same approach? Rude would almost be eradicated. No there will never be a perfect utopia but life may be a little more civilized. :detective:
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Sat 6 Mar, 2010 01:14 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;136911 wrote:
Well, I have not thought it through. I do not know exactly how I feel regarding the matter. I know for sure I think that rudeness can be excusable, not to be confused with justified. That is, even if I come to the conclusion that no one ever deserves rudeness and that being rude is never the right thing to do, I would excuse people from being held accountable for that wrong action.

For instance, if I had a daughter, and someone raped my daughter, I would find many things, like my being rude to the person who just raped my daughter, excusable.


Wouldn't you be justified (to say the least) to be rude to such a person? Why wouldn't you be?
 
deepthot
 
Reply Mon 8 Mar, 2010 08:16 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;136881 wrote:
...If someone ever curses at my girlfriend, I will curse at them back (I will be rude). That's just the way it is. Some people deserve things. If you disagree, that's fine. And I personally understand your position. But I think you should be able to understand this position.


That's not "just the way it is"; by which I mean: It doesn't have to be that way.

You are describing an automatic reaction, almost robot-like, as if the reacter is a machine who MUST do b when a occurs.

You have conditioned yourself to respond that way, by telling yourself things like "That's just the way it is." "I musn't let that party get away with such talk."Two wrongs make a right" ... or other fallacious beliefs that you cannot logically prove.

We are not bound by the generalities of Pavlov or B.F. Skinner who say we are inevitably going to fall for conditioning (by the culture - or by some deliberate manipulator or brainwasher.) We can escape those restraints. We can express individuality. We can tell ourselves that we are devine. Or we can tell ourselves that we are too dignified to stand there and shout curses aloud. Skinner taught us that the best way to extinguish (non-criminal) undesirable behavior is to ignore it. It will then tend to fade away - very much like if your phone rings and no one speaks at the other end you are likely to hang up after a while. You are not getting reinforced for holding on, for listening for something. Eventually you sign off.

In the same way, if the rude one gets NO ATTENTION eventually he tends to behave that way less and less in the future. His crudeness has no payoff. It extinguishes over time. That's what the experimental studies show.



Greetings Ken,

Those who Madoff swindled are (partially) angry at themselves, and are blowing off steam if they are rude to him. (And that, of course, is very understandable!)
He is a mental case which even a psychiatrist would be very tentative about explaining. As a former head of a psychotherapy group for a few years, I'll make a stab at it.

He is largely driven by ego; he cannot admit that he indulged in erroneous thinking. He couldn't admit to people who threw money at him that he was no better at picking stocks than they were. He couldn't admit that just because he was on the Board at the New York Stock Exchange that he didn't know how to out-guess the market. He kept telling people "Don't give your money to me. Out hedge-fund is full", but they kept insisting he take them in. So he did take them in. And he noted how the SEC let him keep getting away with it: 'So how could it be wrong?' he told himself.

He repressed any thoughts that some day it would all come crashing down on him and his employees; he de-sensitized his conscience on those topics. People didn't want to listen to him when he pushed them away. He didn't want to listen to his conscience.

His mind is far-gone -- beyond your rudeness or discourtesy. That sort of behavior only reflects on you. Sure it is irritating that anyone would even attempt to swindle us, but if we get angry we are neurotic. Deep disappointment is normal and healthy. Anger (fury) is not. Rude behavior is not practicing ethics. It is, in fact, the opposite. A lawsuit to recover as much of your "investment" as possible is rational, and an effort to solve a problem.

Ethics (in the new and improved Unified Theory of Ethics) teaches us to see in everyone countless possibilities [perhaps for an uplifiting mutual benefit. Perhas just spontaneously out of pure good will] Another name for this is "love." But if you can't love an individual, at least you can respect him. And if you can't respect him, at least you can show courtesy and decorum. Anything less on your part is uncivil, and thus unethical [according to the new paradigm.] Some of the new ideas are counter-intuitive but Physics gives us lots of such ideas and hardly anyone complains too loudly. Why should Ethics be any different? (rhetorical que.)
 
Fido
 
Reply Tue 9 Mar, 2010 04:59 am
@Jebediah,
Jebediah;136895 wrote:
How is it personal, compared to any discussion of ethics? We do more than just list rules of what we think is moral and immoral, and discard them if we don't agree.

Morals are not a set of rule, but a certain feeling for ones community and the members of it.. No one is more a member of their community than they accept and follow its morality, and acceptence is a emotion...Agreement is a thing of reason, and reason is what people employ to avoid their moral responsibility...For this reason, all injustice is justified, because all justice needs no justification...
 
reasoning logic
 
Reply Tue 9 Mar, 2010 07:53 pm
@deepthot,
deepthot;137741 wrote:
That's not "just the way it is"; by which I mean: It doesn't have to be that way.

You are describing an automatic reaction, almost robot-like, as if the reacter is a machine who MUST do b when a occurs.

You have conditioned yourself to respond that way, by telling yourself things like "That's just the way it is." "I musn't let that party get away with such talk."Two wrongs make a right" ... or other fallacious beliefs that you cannot logically prove.

We are not bound by the generalities of Pavlov or B.F. Skinner who say we are inevitably going to fall for conditioning (by the culture - or by some deliberate manipulator or brainwasher.) We can escape those restraints. We can express individuality. We can tell ourselves that we are devine. Or we can tell ourselves that we are too dignified to stand there and shout curses aloud. Skinner taught us that the best way to extinguish (non-criminal) undesirable behavior is to ignore it. It will then tend to fade away - very much like if your phone rings and no one speaks at the other end you are likely to hang up after a while. You are not getting reinforced for holding on, for listening for something. Eventually you sign off.

In the same way, if the rude one gets NO ATTENTION eventually he tends to behave that way less and less in the future. His crudeness has no payoff. It extinguishes over time. That's what the experimental studies show.



Greetings Ken,

Those who Madoff swindled are (partially) angry at themselves, and are blowing off steam if they are rude to him. (And that, of course, is very understandable!)
He is a mental case which even a psychiatrist would be very tentative about explaining. As a former head of a psychotherapy group for a few years, I'll make a stab at it.

He is largely driven by ego; he cannot admit that he indulged in erroneous thinking. He couldn't admit to people who threw money at him that he was no better at picking stocks than they were. He couldn't admit that just because he was on the Board at the New York Stock Exchange that he didn't know how to out-guess the market. He kept telling people "Don't give your money to me. Out hedge-fund is full", but they kept insisting he take them in. So he did take them in. And he noted how the SEC let him keep getting away with it: 'So how could it be wrong?' he told himself.

He repressed any thoughts that some day it would all come crashing down on him and his employees; he de-sensitized his conscience on those topics. People didn't want to listen to him when he pushed them away. He didn't want to listen to his conscience.

His mind is far-gone -- beyond your rudeness or discourtesy. That sort of behavior only reflects on you. Sure it is irritating that anyone would even attempt to swindle us, but if we get angry we are neurotic. Deep disappointment is normal and healthy. Anger (fury) is not. Rude behavior is not practicing ethics. It is, in fact, the opposite. A lawsuit to recover as much of your "investment" as possible is rational, and an effort to solve a problem.

Ethics (in the new and improved Unified Theory of Ethics) teaches us to see in everyone countless possibilities [perhaps for an uplifiting mutual benefit. Perhas just spontaneously out of pure good will] Another name for this is "love." But if you can't love an individual, at least you can respect him. And if you can't respect him, at least you can show courtesy and decorum. Anything less on your part is uncivil, and thus unethical [according to the new paradigm.] Some of the new ideas are counter-intuitive but Physics gives us lots of such ideas and hardly anyone complains too loudly. Why should Ethics be any different? (rhetorical que.)


Thank you Deepthot, I never seen it that way but it seems as truth to me. [In the same way, if the rude one gets NO ATTENTION eventually he tends to behave that way less and less in the future. His crudeness has no payoff. It extinguishes over time. That's what the experimental studies show] I would also like to thank you for your anayization on Madoff's psychological makeup.Smile
 
 

 
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