respectful people vs obnoxious people

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William
 
Reply Tue 2 Mar, 2010 06:13 am
@reasoning logic,
When someone is being obnoxious/rude/insulting/ it becomes a priority to understand why. It is impossible because for that to happen the offender must "spill their guts" and relate all that has occurred in their life that would warrant such behavior. That and only that would eliminate the behavior. Considering that then who is it that would be able to ascertain what the remedy would be? Here we have our quandary!

First one will not do that; spill their guts! It has something to do with "what you say can be held against you in a court of jurisprudence." so no confessions today. What about the court of public opinion? Well that won't work because the public can also be dupe by intelligent malfeasants within the law. We all seem to have our prejudices. Who can possibly know the truth?

I only bring all this up to illustrate the "nature" of the reality we have today. Everyone would like to speak and offer their own truth but how dare they and not suffer repercussions from those who seem to know better or more? In our competitiveness everyone wants to win so they will be recognized even if that victory is pyrrhic one. When one is rude, from their frame of mind, it is a win/win proposition. If another were to offer kindness to such a person it would be viewed as patronizing and condescending; if one were to get angry, which is expected, the person gets the recognition and the satisfaction of causing conflict from the other and it singles out that person and all thoughts are focused on them thereby giving them the attention they so desperately need they have never had? It's a way of getting even.

In this domain for conflict not to occur we must focus on "all" in our offerings; not just those who happen to agree with us. What I mean by that is to incorporate language that will not offend in any measure what so ever and that takes an uncommon sense of understanding to do that. If, and I do really mean "if", that can be done in all respects, the obnoxious person will eventually be able to understand the nature of his aggression and will find another venue to start anew. They will never fess up in that venue. The will go elsewhere in hopes their reputation doesn't follow them. Make sense? I think it does.

As long as one fights fire with fire the conflict will continue and the obnoxious one receives all the fuel they need to sustain the blaze. So the more understanding we become or at least to understand the "why", the more civil all become and the rude will eventually burn itself out and "self extinguish". If one does not have such understanding then the best thing to do is remain silent and not respond at all to that particular person in that instance only. Try not to hold grudges for even the obnoxious have their "good" points.

Hopefully, one day, when all the fires go out, we will begin to appreciate what respect is all about and the mutual benefits that can be derived there from. :a-ok:

William
 
reasoning logic
 
Reply Tue 2 Mar, 2010 04:14 pm
@William,
William;134541 wrote:
When someone is being obnoxious/rude/insulting/ it becomes a priority to understand why. It is impossible because for that to happen the offender must "spill their guts" and relate all that has occurred in their life that would warrant such behavior. That and only that would eliminate the behavior. Considering that then who is it that would be able to ascertain what the remedy would be? Here we have our quandary!

First one will not do that; spill their guts! It has something to do with "what you say can be held against you in a court of jurisprudence." so no confessions today. What about the court of public opinion? Well that won't work because the public can also be dupe by intelligent malfeasants within the law. We all seem to have our prejudices. Who can possibly know the truth?

I only bring all this up to illustrate the "nature" of the reality we have today. Everyone would like to speak and offer their own truth but how dare they and not suffer repercussions from those who seem to know better or more? In our competitiveness everyone wants to win so they will be recognized even if that victory is pyrrhic one. When one is rude, from their frame of mind, it is a win/win proposition. If another were to offer kindness to such a person it would be viewed as patronizing and condescending; if one were to get angry, which is expected, the person gets the recognition and the satisfaction of causing conflict from the other and it singles out that person and all thoughts are focused on them thereby giving them the attention they so desperately need they have never had? It's a way of getting even.

In this domain for conflict not to occur we must focus on "all" in our offerings; not just those who happen to agree with us. What I mean by that is to incorporate language that will not offend in any measure what so ever and that takes an uncommon sense of understanding to do that. If, and I do really mean "if", that can be done in all respects, the obnoxious person will eventually be able to understand the nature of his aggression and will find another venue to start anew. They will never fess up in that venue. The will go elsewhere in hopes their reputation doesn't follow them. Make sense? I think it does.

As long as one fights fire with fire the conflict will continue and the obnoxious one receives all the fuel they need to sustain the blaze. So the more understanding we become or at least to understand the "why", the more civil all become and the rude will eventually burn itself out and "self extinguish". If one does not have such understanding then the best thing to do is remain silent and not respond at all to that particular person in that instance only. Try not to hold grudges for even the obnoxious have their "good" points.

Hopefully, one day, when all the fires go out, we will begin to appreciate what respect is all about and the mutual benefits that can be derived there from. :a-ok:

William
That was very well said William.Smile

---------- Post added 03-02-2010 at 05:22 PM ----------

Jebediah;134397 wrote:
I actually think etiquette is a very interesting subject. It's sort of like "mini-morality". I think this is a good fit for the ethics forum. Usually it isn't discussed at all, people just say "this is rude, this isn't".

People disagree on this forum, so perhaps they should put their ideas up for debate. Is it ok to be rude to people for "being foolish" or "not posting a decent argument"? I believe HexHammer in his thread referred to it as "bursting naive peoples' bubbles".

I think a lot of rudeness comes from enforcing rules of etiquette, ironically. Like the spelling example earlier, or the bits about dismissing someones argument for not being up to forum standards. I've seen people (on other forums mostly) be angry just because someone is wrong about something.

Maybe that's just fine for them, but from my own experience, when I'm rude it's either by accident or because I've gotten miffed about something (usually someone else being rude, or me perceiving it that way). It just seems better to relax and not have as strict a rule set. Why let things get to you if you can help it? Bickering isn't exactly pleasant and doesn't accomplish much.


Very nicely put, I love it when people share [scientia] knowledge.:detective:
 
Fido
 
Reply Tue 2 Mar, 2010 09:41 pm
@reasoning logic,
Well... If I were to judge by the value judgements there is no want of little dictators to fill all the pointed hats...
 
reasoning logic
 
Reply Wed 3 Mar, 2010 03:04 am
@Fido,
Fido;135114 wrote:
Well... If I were to judge by the value judgements there is no want of little dictators to fill all the pointed hats...

Now we are starting to get some where, Maybe I should use the Thank You instead? I think that you all have pointed wizard hats that are already pointed.Laughing
 
Fido
 
Reply Wed 3 Mar, 2010 11:27 am
@reasoning logic,
I was thinking of that Prussian military design, Like fat old Bismark used to wear...
 
reasoning logic
 
Reply Wed 3 Mar, 2010 05:39 pm
@Fido,
Fido;135405 wrote:
I was thinking of that Prussian military design, Like fat old Bismark used to wear...


He was not all that bad, but
On the other hand, he deliberately restricted democracy, and the anti-Catholic and anti-Socialist legislation that he introduced unsuccessfully left a devastating legacy of distrust in German political culture. but then again like you said, [We are all moral people, even the immoral ones, because it is not a judgement, but a context in which judgements are made that none of us can escape]:detective:
 
Fido
 
Reply Wed 3 Mar, 2010 11:17 pm
@reasoning logic,
I am reading a book about him right now...I would say all that bad...Two world wars were in part, his legacy...
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Wed 3 Mar, 2010 11:43 pm
@Fido,
Fido;134145 wrote:
We are all moral people, even the immoral ones, because it is not a judgement, but a context in which judgements are made that none of us can escape...



Damn...that's a good sentence
 
Fido
 
Reply Thu 4 Mar, 2010 12:04 pm
@reasoning logic,
Do sort of hit the mark sometimes for an old unedjufied foo.
 
Pyrrho
 
Reply Thu 4 Mar, 2010 12:51 pm
@reasoning logic,
reasoning logic;133633 wrote:
[respectful people vs obnoxious people]

It does seem that we will have many people on this forum at times [emphasis added] that will be obnoxious. ...



There are at least two reasons for this. First, some people are just obnoxious people. To find out more about that, looking at them from a psychological point of view may be helpful, if one is interested in such things. Second, sometimes normally calm and rational people get irritated with pompous self-importance attached to nonsensical statements which the author proudly imagines is sublime philosophy. When irritated, people are more likely to be rude.

I might also add, there is a difference between being correct in one's statements, and being polite. One can be either one without being the other. Of course, one might also be both or neither.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Thu 4 Mar, 2010 01:23 pm
@Pyrrho,
Pyrrho;136007 wrote:
There are at least two reasons for this. First, some people are just obnoxious people. To find out more about that, looking at them from a psychological point of view may be helpful, if one is interested in such things. Second, sometimes normally calm and rational people get irritated with pompous self-importance attached to nonsensical statements which the author proudly imagines is sublime philosophy. When irritated, people are more likely to be rude.

I might also add, there is a difference between being correct in one's statements, and being polite. One can be either one without being the other. Of course, one might also be both or neither.


I am not so sure that telling someone that he is talking nonsense is being rude. There is such a thing as telling someone the truth without any softeners. Especially when the person continues to talk nonsense when it is clear that it is nonsense. And actually revels in it.
 
Pyrrho
 
Reply Thu 4 Mar, 2010 01:40 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;136019 wrote:

Pyrrho;136007 wrote:
There are at least two reasons for this. First, some people are just obnoxious people. To find out more about that, looking at them from a psychological point of view may be helpful, if one is interested in such things. Second, sometimes normally calm and rational people get irritated with pompous self-importance attached to nonsensical statements which the author proudly imagines is sublime philosophy. When irritated, people are more likely to be rude.

I might also add, there is a difference between being correct in one's statements, and being polite. One can be either one without being the other. Of course, one might also be both or neither.


I am not so sure that telling someone that he is talking nonsense is being rude. There is such a thing as telling someone the truth without any softeners. Especially when the person continues to talk nonsense when it is clear that it is nonsense. And actually revels in it.


I am sorry that my post was not sufficiently clear. One can say to someone who is saying nonsense, "You stupid moron, how idiotic can you be?" and add in a few profanities as well. One can be rude to such a fool. Of course, pointing out that what someone is saying is nonsense is not necessarily going to be so very rude, and may not be rude at all in some circumstances.

And there is also the possibility of someone asking for others to be rude, by deliberately provoking them. This can be done by reveling in stupid nonsensical gibberish while pretending such foolishness is profound philosophy. This may be especially provoking to someone who has devoted his or her life to the study of philosophy, as it is, in a manner of speaking, making a mockery of one's life's work.

So, to recap, one may be rude or not in correcting someone's errors, and some people provoke rudeness by their foolish remarks.
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Thu 4 Mar, 2010 01:54 pm
@reasoning logic,
Pyrrho wrote:

So, to recap, one may be rude or not in correcting someone's errors, and some people provoke rudeness by their foolish remarks.


And lastly I would add, as you insinuated earlier, rudeness can sometimes be justified.
 
Pyrrho
 
Reply Thu 4 Mar, 2010 02:15 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;136032 wrote:
And lastly, as you insinuated earlier, rudeness can sometimes be justified.


I am not so sure that I would go so far as saying that rudeness can be justified. It can, however, be understandable and excusable, and therefore undeserving of censure or punishment. But that does not entail that it is the right thing to do. I am however very sympathetic to such things, as I myself have been rude upon occasion when provoked. Although it is understandable and excusable for me to have acted that way upon occasion, I am not convinced that it was the right thing to do. Perhaps, though, I am mistaken about that and am more perfect than I imagine myself to be.
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Thu 4 Mar, 2010 02:19 pm
@Pyrrho,
Pyrrho;136044 wrote:
I am not so sure that I would go so far as saying that rudeness can be justified. It can, however, be understandable and excusable, and therefore undeserving of censure or punishment. But that does not entail that it is the right thing to do. I am however very sympathetic to such things, as I myself have been rude upon occasion when provoked. Although it is understandable and excusable for me to have acted that way upon occasion, I am not convinced that it was the right thing to do. Perhaps, though, I am mistaken about that and am more perfect than I imagine myself to be.


On second thought, I agree. "Justified" wasn't the proper word, as that would imply my action were right or just. It is still wrong to act in that way, even if my case is understandable. I should have said "excusable". I think, at times, being rude is excusable.
 
William
 
Reply Thu 4 Mar, 2010 07:33 pm
@reasoning logic,
I think we are criss-crossing words here. RL, you mention respect and self righteous as synonyms. I am not sure if this was your intent for it was vague as why you used them the way you did. It appeared as though that was the case, if not, sorry. Those two words are not similar in any way.

I think we are mistaking obnoxious with confidence and to a degree arrogance either of which have their subtle natures. Obnoxious is insulting overt rudeness. There is nothing subtle about it. In that respect there is no excuse for it offensively or defensively.

It is often an excuse in reciprocation allowing the attacked in a defense stance justification of "putting one in their place"! That's just a war and nothing can be gained from it accomplishing nothing. There have been those occasions in which starting an argument was the device used to derail a thread or sabotage it by offering erroneous analogies. That's not being obnoxious, that just a debating tactic and why I don't debate. I have no talents in such deceitful maneuvers though I will admit it does take intelligence to pull off such a ploy. A device I call pseudo intellectual mumbo jumbo, ha! Sokal is renowned for usingsuch a device to put those pseudo-brilliant in there place, ha. Sometimes I wish a Sokal were a member here, ha!

William
 
Pythagorean
 
Reply Thu 4 Mar, 2010 11:38 pm
@William,
Re: respectful people vs obnoxious people


Zetherin;136357 wrote:
My purpose in this world?

Well, my first purpose is to help my mother out financially. My second purpose is to continue my studies not only in philosophy but critical thinking in general - I'm also in the beginning stages of learning propositional logic. My third purpose is to make sure the two women I love are happy, my mother and my significant other. My fourth purpose is to demand clarity on philosophyforum.com in a sharp, but often admittedly rude, manner. My fifth purpose to become a better Street Fighter IV player; I'm currently maining Guile, thanks for asking.

I have further purpose in this world, like my purpose at my job, but I don't feel like getting into that.

If you have any further questions, you know where to find me.
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Thu 4 Mar, 2010 11:54 pm
@Pythagorean,
Pythagorean;136367 wrote:
Re: respectful people vs obnoxious people


Boy do you have it out for me. Please stop the childishness, or at least do it through PM's. No need to clutter the forums because you disagree with my approach.

Haha, this guy is actually going out of his way to attack me in other threads now. Unbelievable stuff here on philosophyforum.com!
 
Pepijn Sweep
 
Reply Fri 5 Mar, 2010 12:09 am
@Jebediah,
:letme-at-em:
Jebediah;134167 wrote:
If people are obnoxious it would seem like it's because they think it is warranted. The person returning the item without the receipt thinks that getting their money back is justice.

People who are obnoxious a lot of the time have a weird view of what warrants the rudeness. That's the real issue. Some people believe that a post having poor spelling is such an affront that it deserves derision, for example.


I believe in afree Forum. Sorry 4 the typo. I still have the receipts of my Tax pay-ments. Can I claim money $ back ?
Reason bank-fraude in NTC ? Don't need any; would donate to Philosophy-on-line.
 
reasoning logic
 
Reply Fri 5 Mar, 2010 04:03 pm
@William,
William;136237 wrote:
I think we are criss-crossing words here. RL, you mention respect and self righteous as synonyms. I am not sure if this was your intent for it was vague as why you used them the way you did. It appeared as though that was the case, if not, sorry. Those two words are not similar in any way.

I think we are mistaking obnoxious with confidence and to a degree arrogance either of which have their subtle natures. Obnoxious is insulting overt rudeness. There is nothing subtle about it. In that respect there is no excuse for it offensively or defensively.

It is often an excuse in reciprocation allowing the attacked in a defense stance justification of "putting one in their place"! That's just a war and nothing can be gained from it accomplishing nothing. There have been those occasions in which starting an argument was the device used to derail a thread or sabotage it by offering erroneous analogies. That's not being obnoxious, that just a debating tactic and why I don't debate. I have no talents in such deceitful maneuvers though I will admit it does take intelligence to pull off such a ploy. A device I call pseudo intellectual mumbo jumbo, ha! Sokal is renowned for usingsuch a device to put those pseudo-brilliant in there place, ha. Sometimes I wish a Sokal were a member here, ha!

William

Leave it to you William to be so observant. lol You are correct I used those two words loosely hopeing to bring others into the thread. I have heard many people that anger easily and become rude:poke-eye:
use those 2 words [self-righteous and constructive criticism]
over the years.
 
 

 
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