Is the Death Penalty Justifiable?

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kennethamy
 
Reply Tue 1 Dec, 2009 09:17 pm
@Aedes,
Aedes;107491 wrote:
No, it cannot supercede anything unless a cogent case can be made to explain it. Finding a hair on someone's dead body that matches his wife doesn't make her the killer -- a coherent, plausible story needs to come together. Even if (for the sake of this argument) DNA doesn't give false positives or false negatives, the problem is that DNA doesn't answer the question "Did Mr. Y kill Mr. X?" It only tells you who this or that sample belongs to.


Accused people, and even those convicted, have been released on the basis of DNA evidence. Of course other facts have to be there as well. But that is a given.
 
SSInvictus
 
Reply Tue 1 Dec, 2009 09:31 pm
@IntoTheLight,
Quote:
There are two main reasons why I oppose the DP in the USA:

1) Racial inequality.

Historically, up to 2009, minorities have been sentenced to death much more than Whites (that racial majority) - which I think suggests inherent racism in the Justice system.

2) New DNA Evidence

There have been many people tired (and sentenced) for crimes they didn't comimit. New DNA evidence has freed several death row inmates in several states. One can only guess how many other inmates were put the death for crimes they didn't commit.

-ITL-


So because of our imperfection, we will have to endure our imperfection?
With that rational, we should not have lawyers, judges, politicians, armies, weapons, knifes, guns, drugs, money, whores, doctors, pharmaceutical companies, Media, Press, Newspaper, Television, and every other Tingy you could find as corruptive, filthy and ammoral. Including the last mohican man; The one and only. Human Race!

Bwaha.

T.T
 
Aedes
 
Reply Tue 1 Dec, 2009 09:34 pm
@Shostakovich phil,
Yes, I know. It's made a critical difference in countless cases. In others it has not. What's the big deal?

Maybe it's because I look at this like a clinician. I use diagnostic tests, be they x-rays or DNA-based tests (we do a lot of PCRs in my specialty). But it is the prior probability of a disease being present that influences how most tests are interpreted. A chest x-ray may look like pneumonia, but we don't treat people for pneumonia unless they've got a clinical story that fits it.

Same with DNA at a crime scene. A crime investigation is a process of putting together a story. DNA is a test of that story, but if the story is extremely strong anyway you don't need it and if the story is extremely weak the DNA evidence can't be explained.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Tue 1 Dec, 2009 09:39 pm
@Aedes,
Aedes;107498 wrote:
Yes, I know. It's made a critical difference in countless cases. In others it has not. What's the big deal?

Maybe it's because I look at this like a clinician. I use diagnostic tests, be they x-rays or DNA-based tests (we do a lot of PCRs in my specialty). But it is the prior probability of a disease being present that influences how most tests are interpreted. A chest x-ray may look like pneumonia, but we don't treat people for pneumonia unless they've got a clinical story that fits it.

Same with DNA at a crime scene. A crime investigation is a process of putting together a story. DNA is a test of that story, but if the story is extremely strong anyway you don't need it and if the story is extremely weak the DNA evidence can't be explained.


But these anomalies are not all that frequent, and DNA has added a powerful tool to forensics. It makes miscarriage of justice (in both directions) much less likely.
 
Fido
 
Reply Wed 2 Dec, 2009 08:47 am
@Camerama,
Camerama;105172 wrote:
This is a radically backwards distortion of life. It is nonsense. Your "good" divorces pride from human potential. Moral perfection is infeasible if you injure yourself to become "free of the weight of perfection." It is not "good" if it is not the highest potential you can attain, and certainly not if you do it in the name of a higher authority than your mind.

Must diasgree... Pride is not a part of human potential, but it does play a great part in human degradation....The mirror mirror on the wall only helps us so long as it tells us what we want to hear... What we are is what we are, and what we do is what we do, and perfection is an impossible goal that frustrates all and adds nothing good to the human experience... Consider how long we thought all perfect forms were the template for our imperfect reality... Humanity has never been so miserable than when trying too institute prefect, that is, ideal forms of government and economy and etc...Society was a better place when they used to periodically exclude those who thought too highly of themselves, as the Greeks used to do...Life is a cooperative effort, and it is more fun if no one gets all type A anal about perfection....

But please, do not let me lead this thread astray...I am already in bad oder with the management...

---------- Post added 12-02-2009 at 09:53 AM ----------

kennethamy;107500 wrote:
But these anomalies are not all that frequent, and DNA has added a powerful tool to forensics. It makes miscarriage of justice (in both directions) much less likely.

Who dunit is a part of justice; but why dunit is the key to stopping injustice, and clearly the death penalty does not get the whole society closer to that goal... If you kill one killer while training up ten more to devalue life because their lives are devalued then you are not ever going to reach a society of peace based upon justice....
 
manored
 
Reply Wed 2 Dec, 2009 04:37 pm
@SSInvictus,
[SS].Invictus;107362 wrote:
One who takes life, does not have the right to demand it back.
You mean "return life" as in "be freed"? If not, then I dont understand how that would work, since nobody can return life anyway =)

[SS].Invictus;107362 wrote:

Mordern Democracy should have adopted that instead of making the [Swearing-here] message that an unjustifable "murder, pedophile, schizophrenic" should have a second chance in Life.

Second Chance?
Not giving people a second chance is a waste, though I dont think everone deserves a second chance: some do.
 
Fido
 
Reply Wed 2 Dec, 2009 05:19 pm
@Aedes,
Aedes;105037 wrote:
Other way around...

The first question is Does anyone deserve to die for a crime? If yes, then the next question is How can we always discriminate those who deserve to die from those who don't?

The only reason any one should die is that it is expeditious...If it is not cheaper and have the desired effect and take less time than the alternative of life in prison then it has no fair justification...Government does all the right things wrong, and all the wrong things right, and it still costs too much and takes too long and does not work on anyone but the dead guy... No one feels better except the worst sort of people, and anyone with a calculator and a tax bill is bound to feel worse...The state breeds fear in all and respect in none, and capital punishment is a show piece of their failure...

---------- Post added 12-02-2009 at 06:26 PM ----------

manored;107656 wrote:
You mean "return life" as in "be freed"? If not, then I dont understand how that would work, since nobody can return life anyway =)

Not giving people a second chance is a waste, though I dont think everone deserves a second chance: some do.

I think white folks should all get a second chance, and thank God I did... When the cops work you over, deny you medical treatment so you will be in pain and partially paralyzed for life and then over charge the be jesus out of you, then a second chance is mighty handy; but I wouldn't recommend anyone blow that...The cops are all comedians- which fulfills the code of their ancient genre, but to see them as they are is to see tyranny walk on flat feet...
------------------------------------------------------------------
It has come to my attention that some people might find this last post offensive to black people or others... Naturally as a person I think I deserve a second chance... My experience tells me that black people do not expect a fair chance, let alone a second chance, and I think it is this grudge, and resentment, which so many feel that actually contributes to much crime... For all those who take offense; let me suggest that if it is necessary to spell everything out to you, that no meaningful conversation will follow... I don't deliberately try to hurt people over what they cannot change, but if I did try to jab at some one over a fact that they cannot change, I would not consider it as bad as attacking some one over a fact that they can apparantly change, and the reason is this: What people are, seemingly by choice, is not something anyone can change easily because what people are has been arrived at by degrees, little by little, time after time... To attack some one on a fact they are presumed to be able to change is to attack their moral standing, because clearly what they are that they can change must be the result of a defective morality... And that is the worst thing to do if you really seek change from people, and not injury, because it forces people on the defensive... But if you kid a person about being black, or white, or a woman, or short, what can they do about it, and why should they take it seriously because it is not a moral choice... Attack me because I am Irish and German, or American... If you judge me for the color of my skin and not the content of my character, then the judgement is on you... But, though judgement is knowledge, it is not polite to judge others at all, and worse, to seek the authority to judge without knowledge...Is it worse to judge our whole society or culture; because that is my business...And to do that requires insight into many perspectives...

If I say whites should have a second chance I am not saying what I believe; but what most of us white folks take for granted, that we will not be treated as badly as blacks by the legal system...In fact; all people who have the intelligence and will power to change should have a second chance, including whites...In reality, even to black people the legal system does offer many opportunities for rehabilitation, and many warnings, and many examples... In the distant past, it was common to march a prisoner to his execution through a maze, and I expect that it was to remind the man that through turns of fortune, and twists of fate; but mostly by choices freely made had he reached the chopping block...

Is it wrong to assume that as an adult I am talking to adults, and that I need not spell out every nuance, or attempt at irony, or sarcasm???I am not a bad dog... Really...If you do not wish to understand what a person is saying there isn't much point talking...You can't say good morning to some folks if they are looking to find fault....
 
manored
 
Reply Thu 3 Dec, 2009 06:00 pm
@Fido,
Fido;107659 wrote:

Is it wrong to assume that as an adult I am talking to adults, and that I need not spell out every nuance, or attempt at irony, or sarcasm???I am not a bad dog... Really...If you do not wish to understand what a person is saying there isn't much point talking...You can't say good morning to some folks if they are looking to find fault....
It will make your life easier to not assume, its hard to detect sarcasm then you cant hear the voice, cant see the face and dont know much about who is speaking =)

Thats why I punctuate my posts with an awful lot of smileys.
 
Aedes
 
Reply Thu 3 Dec, 2009 06:24 pm
@Shostakovich phil,
Fido, friendly word of advice -- we don't know what you mean. We only know what you write. Words need to be chosen carefully, with a thought to how they will sound to others.

I tell you this having gotten in trouble for how I've come off myself in other walks of my life. Not for a black/white thing, but for sounding like a jerk when talking to colleagues on the phone earlier in my career. Took a while to realize that I never want to be in a position where I have to apologize for how I came off to someone.
 
SSInvictus
 
Reply Sat 5 Dec, 2009 03:45 pm
@Fido,
Quote:
What if it does not work, but serves to demean all life, and to spread vengeance, and resentment???


Dude are you serious?

I used to talk and write like that when I was 10. Your point is too immature to read it. And a pseudo-philosophy to say the least. Get real and wake up please.

Thank you.

---------- Post added 12-05-2009 at 04:55 PM ----------

Quote:
You mean "return life" as in "be freed"? If not, then I dont understand how that would work, since nobody can return life anyway =)


I meant not having the right to say "I want my life back"; i.e if he ends up in prison for life or ends up there with a death sentence soon to be approved.

Quote:
Not giving people a second chance is a waste, though I dont think everone deserves a second chance: some do.


My taxi money is a waste. As if I ever know were the F-[swearing] they go all the time.

~~

The drama.
 
manored
 
Reply Mon 7 Dec, 2009 05:38 pm
@SSInvictus,
[SS].Invictus;108433 wrote:

My taxi money is a waste. As if I ever know were the F-[swearing] they go all the time.

~~

The drama.
Well, wouldnt you prefer that there was a solution that didnt involve wasting money with taxis? =)
 
HexHammer
 
Reply Wed 24 Feb, 2010 10:52 pm
@Shostakovich phil,
I wonder what good it is, to have clearly psycotic serial killers haing around doing nothing but waste tax money? On the other side, it has been proven again and again that innocent people has been put to death, by faulty justice system.
 
Deckard
 
Reply Thu 25 Feb, 2010 12:31 am
@HexHammer,
HexHammer;132203 wrote:
I wonder what good it is, to have clearly psycotic serial killers haing around doing nothing but waste tax money? On the other side, it has been proven again and again that innocent people has been put to death, by faulty justice system.

It would seem the possibility of putting an innocent person to death outweighs the unfortunate economic drawbacks of keeping the unreformable around. But then keeping people alive and in prison also costs money and there are certainly at least a few innocent people in prison.

When I think of the question the death penalty or incarceration all that I can be sure of is that I must remember that I can never be sure that these people deserve what they are getting. So many arguments cling to this idea that they deserve what they get. It is much more messy than that. In the end it is a question of risk. Can we risk setting these people free because they might be innocent? Clearly we cannot.

I've heard the argument that keeping someone on death row is more costly than keeping them for a life term in the more general population. If this is indeed the case this fact says more about streamlining the execution process than eliminating it all together. But either way, can we risk spending more money to keep a possibly innocent person alive? Clearly we can.

In the end I can only take one giant step back from the problem and ask Why are there so many people in prison, death row or otherwise? Prevention of the crime would be far better than the methods we presently have that pass for cure. A society that allows so many to slip away in such a way that all that this society can think to do with them is either lock them up or kill them clearly has some deep and horrible flaws that must be addressed.
 
HexHammer
 
Reply Thu 25 Feb, 2010 01:05 am
@Shostakovich phil,
Btw, another factor is also the trauma of the executioner(s). It would burden an executioner if he was in great doubt, weather if the victim would be innocent or guilty. If later evidence would be uncoverd, that the executed was innocent, the executioner would feel a great guilt, I'm sure.
 
manored
 
Reply Thu 25 Feb, 2010 03:25 pm
@HexHammer,
HexHammer;132203 wrote:
I wonder what good it is, to have clearly psycotic serial killers haing around doing nothing but waste tax money? On the other side, it has been proven again and again that innocent people has been put to death, by faulty justice system.
I think prisioners should either pay their stay or work in prision to pay it, only if they refused to do so would they be executed. I remember someone argued that this could develop into a slave-work system thanks to corruption, but its the best solution I can think on.

Deckard;132224 wrote:

In the end I can only take one giant step back from the problem and ask Why are there so many people in prison, death row or otherwise? Prevention of the crime would be far better than the methods we presently have that pass for cure. A society that allows so many to slip away in such a way that all that this society can think to do with them is either lock them up or kill them clearly has some deep and horrible flaws that must be addressed.
While its true that most crime could be prevented, there are just some hopeless cases. Some people seem to just be born to be serial killers, given how they become so even without any apparent reason.

HexHammer;132229 wrote:
Btw, another factor is also the trauma of the executioner(s). It would burden an executioner if he was in great doubt, weather if the victim would be innocent or guilty. If later evidence would be uncoverd, that the executed was innocent, the executioner would feel a great guilt, I'm sure.
I dont think that the regret would fall on the executioner, he only kills. It would most likely fall in those who decided he was guilty, and those who decided he deserved death.
 
HexHammer
 
Reply Thu 25 Feb, 2010 03:44 pm
@manored,
manored;132487 wrote:
I dont think that the regret would fall on the executioner, he only kills. It would most likely fall in those who decided he was guilty, and those who decided he deserved death.
In China last year, it was reported that soliders and policement who would execute criminals would suffer trauma doing their office.

Also in USA where in past time it only befell 1 person to execute, he would get traumatized, later befell a panel of executioners to collectivly push a button, therefore noone takes the guilt alont of taking the live.

However, I don't know the situation about doctors giving the lethal injection.


manored;132487 wrote:
I think prisioners should either pay their stay or work in prision to pay it, only if they refused to do so would they be executed. I remember someone argued that this could develop into a slave-work system thanks to corruption, but its the best solution I can think on.
Not only will it often be slave like conditions, but also cause unfair competition towards other companies. With cheap labour they can outsell any other who has to pay expensive hires to union people.
 
reasoning logic
 
Reply Thu 25 Feb, 2010 06:21 pm
@HexHammer,
I know that it is very unlikely, but if you mother lost her mind and killed a bunch of people, would you think she should be put to death?
 
HexHammer
 
Reply Thu 25 Feb, 2010 06:24 pm
@reasoning logic,
reasoning logic;132557 wrote:
I know that it is very unlikely, but if you mother lost her mind and killed a bunch of people, would you think she should be put to death?
I wouldn't hesitate to vote for that, I'm kinda above group think, and not ruled by emotion on that point.
 
reasoning logic
 
Reply Thu 25 Feb, 2010 06:36 pm
@HexHammer,
HexHammer;132558 wrote:
I wouldn't hesitate to vote for that, I'm kinda above group think, and not ruled by emotion on that point.

I am cool with that, Again very unlikely! But what if she was in a car wreck and suffered head injury and just was not the same any more but seem to function some what, at least you thought that she did and 1 month after leaving the hospital killed a bunch of people and after visiting her you could clearly see that she was not the same person she use to be. Would you kill her then?
 
HexHammer
 
Reply Thu 25 Feb, 2010 06:41 pm
@reasoning logic,
reasoning logic;132562 wrote:
I am cool with that, Again very unlikely! But what if she was in a car wreck and suffered head injury and just was not the same any more but seem to function some what, at least you thought that she did and 1 month after leaving the hospital killed a bunch of people and after visiting her you could clearly see that she was not the same person she use to be. Would you kill her then?
? ..why would I kill my own mum? We got goverment to do that, given the scenario takes place in a state/country with death penalty.

Or ..did you mean something else?
 
 

 
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