So he created us for our benefit. Did he actually assume we would appreciate our existence without question. Are we allowed to question our existence or are we to be grateful without benefit of knowing.

Of course you're allowed to question but I think we must be careful of our intent behind the questioning. If you have honest questions the bible says ask and ye shall receive but if your intent is hypocritical in nature or bitterness then I think the better question lies within your own heart.

To sum up, questioning or doubting is natural and acceptable. But we must be careful to examine our own hearts for why we are questioning and the motivation/intent behind our questioning to make sure our motives are sincere/pure

Most religions have the idea that being 'good' all your life will pay for a completely selfish form of life insurance: heaven, or it's various alternatives. This also gets rid of any form of altruism.

If on the other hand you are atheist, you can still be altruistic. Yes, of course many religious people will tell you that they have done things that are purely altruistic, but I find the concept that they have not at some point thought of it as a help to pay for their ticket into heaven unlikely. Do humans really need religion to be kind?

The other problem that religion creates is the fundamentalist morals and values that it carries with it. These morals are often logically and socially economically flawed, and by that I mean they have no positive influence on society. The reason people follow them is to please God. So there again we see the selfishness of religion. Instead of helping society, religious people are thinking of their own personal gain by following absurd morals so that they can get into heaven. We only have to look back to the slave trade, which the puritans didn't see as morally wrong in any form, to see just how absurd these fixed morals can look.

It is for similar reasons that often intelligent discussions are infected by people who's morals are perverted by their selfish attention to their religion. If it wasn't for religion, we could discuss economics and logic with more ease, not bothering to stop to think about absurd morals that, from an atheist perspective, do not help anyone.

Not only that, religion represses people, and this is the most dangerous thing of all. Repression creates aggression. We can see it with the muslim extremists, and when it comes to sexual repression, it doesn't take a genius to see a link with it and serial killers such as Ed Gein. And before anyone says it, yes I know their also is a link with serial killers and the opposite extreme to sexual repression as well. But non-the-less repression is dangerous, it's unhealthy, and it's unnatural, and the only thing that creates it is religion, or someone's excuse for it.

This is why I think a world without religion would be better, to give an unadulterated and open minded look at how the world could be made a better, using economics and logic, instead of nonsense morals and values.

So what is the purpose of our existence? an honest question..Why do I exist?

is it my choice or gods ?

why should I be any less sincere through my disbelief than your faith. The question is still valid.

Can I deny my existence to stop one small child's suffering?

A gift, a gift of life, has to be accepted before it has value. This god must have desired our existence but he if he exists, restricted our ability , encouraged our failings by circumstance so that we might beg his forgiveness.

Love does not give with the need of understanding, it should be as clear as a summers day.

He did not need to but he did...Now either he wanted to or not ? What did he create us for, what purpose do we serve god. I would like an answer please.

He did not need to but he did...Now either he wanted to or not ? What did he create us for, what purpose do we serve god. I would like an answer please.

So you are saying god created us for our good not his? he had no personal gain from this creation? are you sure?

To make one thing clear: Atheism has nothing to do with religion.
Some of the worlds major religions are atheistic, such as Buddhism. And many atheists follow organized belief systems that anthropologically can be considered religions.



This argument can be easily discredited with an empiric observation. Are there lots of atheist charities doing good in the world or are there religious charities doing good? If you trust the statistics I have seen, giving to charity strongly correlates with being religious.
So claiming that atheists are better people because they don't believe in heaven is simply factually incorrect. Maybe religionists do good things because they believe in a reward in the afterlife, so their charity is technically not altruism. But that's a better force for humanity than this supposed altruism of atheism that can't be seen anywhere around.



There are very early signs in archeology of men enslaving each others. So it's been going on forever. What brought it to an end was... what was that? Might it have been Christian morales?
They might not have told you this at school, but the slave trade was ended by a re-vitalizing of Christian morales in the 19th century.
They may have done it to please their imaginary God, but who's having a positive influence on society here?

Good things happen because of selfish motivations. It is erroneous to think that good things only happen because of altruistic and rational reasons. And that we would have a better world if we could get everybody to be rational, and no longer to be selfish. Since humans are inherently selfish your cause is at it's base anti-freedom.



This argument too is moot. Because religionists believe in their fairy tales they are not somehow less logically capable as people. Quite the contrary, you can observe an astounding lack of logic and skepticism in the political camp that tends to be anti-religionist. For example on the topic of global warming.



They sure had a lot of serial killers back in the medieval ages.



Well, you are wrong. Your view of the world is that good things come from rationality, and bad things come from a lack of rationality. Look at any historic event and you notice that this is not the case. Good things can come from selfishness and good intentions often cause suffering and destruction.
The French and Russian revolutions were inspired by the mindset that you support, and they both caused millions of deaths.

So he created us for our benefit. Did he actually assume we would appreciate our existance without question. Are we allowed to question our existance or are we to be grateful without benefit of knowing.

Existence certainly was imposed upon us, but we also believe that we can choose "eternal death" if we so seek it.

But our freedom is not absolute. We have the option of eternal happiness, as in Aristotle's ultimate end, or the absence of happiness and life.

---------- Post added 02-03-2010 at 10:56 AM ----------

"Its naive and simplistic to maintain these beliefs through blind faith. Your excuses for this god are born of desire not logical reasoning."

Xris,

This is an accusation, not an argument.

So your certainties through faith are what? are they convincing enough to be called knowledge, a knowledge that is beyond question?

I have the choice, what choice? You have not answered my questions merely given me the usual rhetoric of eternal damnation, if I dont see your perfect god.

What I have given you isn't rhetoric. Is it too much to ask for some mutual respect? I have no disrespect for what you believe, but all I hope to accomplish here is to develop mutual understanding. In no way am I trying to convert you. Please don't assume I'm trying to discuss these things in a "usual" way since you do not know me at all.

More to the point, Aquinas defines "faith" not as blind, but a type of mix between "Opinion" and "Knowledge."

In other words, those with faith, are those who by grace have come to know God. But that "experience" of God is not fully comprehensible since it is a mystery, and thus there is a realm of the unknown attatched to that faith. In other words, without experience of God it is irrational to believe in God. But that does not mean it is reasonable to say that God does not exist because he has not been experienced.

I have no problem with spiritual experience or the necessity to believe. Its the certainty thats wheeled out like some proven theory. The reticence that believers have in answering difficult questions, its the politics of faith that infuriates me. The side stepping, the referral to scriptures as if confirms their views. Im sorry if I have offended you, I apologize, but I would like my questions to be seriously considered and not have the usual preachers patronizing replies.

So when logic conflicts with faith how do manage to excuse faith. With my observations of the faithful, in these circumstances, they revert to rhetoric scriptures, like its hidey place where their convictions remain intact. I arrive at this critical moment from a position of a believer who stopped listening to the religious propaganda and asked pertinent questions. I cant help but ask these questions , the trouble is I see myself thirty years ago frantically trying to excuse god these anomalies of faith that I ask now and the very same answers I gave, I receive in return.

Why should any child suffer for our salvation, my salvation. Christ can die for my sins , its his choice but not the countless billions that have and will suffer for gods great cause...Its almost obscene to believe a benevolent god will allow one more child to suffer for a certain mysterious reason. Its beyond comprehension , belief, credibility , logic.

I understand death is a consequence of life and one can not be without the other. To holiday forever is more than any soul could tolerate. My suffering does not concern me, its not a selfish request. Its the billions of children that have not known life or have not been given the opportunity to discover. Why does a benevolent god let the constant years of persistent evil inflict these our little children. When will he say enough is enough, has there not been enough pain , testing . It may not be long in heavenly terms, mans existance, but it has run it course. This god is not logical.

People have a natural instinct towards religious like beliefs, you can't get rid of that. And I don't know how you would argue that religious people should be converted to atheism..

Religion is an outgrowth of having too big a brain
It roots back to our need to understand - and thereby CONTROL - our environment. To survive.
If we believe we have knowledge - we believe we have control. And that 'knowledge' can be used to control others without it. Which gives US more control. And the circle completes and begins.

I favor breaking the cycle...........

GS