Why a world without religion would be a better place

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prothero
 
Reply Sun 10 Jan, 2010 05:10 pm
@ArthBH,
Well both communist Russia and communist China tried to create societies without religion. In the peoples paradise your allegiance was to be to your society and to the state. We also had facism, nationalism and a host of other isms. Most "religious" wars are not really about "religion" at all but about political power and economic wealth. Most religons have as their basic moral premise compassion. So maybe a world without religion (even assuming such a thing possible) would not be all that great. The notion that science, reason and technology was going to perfect man and society took a beating in WWI and WWII. In fact it was disillusionment with those conceptions that led to postmodernism and in a return to religion for many.
 
starfighter
 
Reply Sun 10 Jan, 2010 07:43 pm
@ArthBH,
Just to make a point here but Judeo-Chistrian religion is what really brought a great majority of the world to civilization. I mean someone sat down, wrote and distributed a group of ideas and eventually a book on how to prepare food and stay clean, how to bury the dead, treat your neighbors good, take care of the sick, poor and elderly.

My grandfather said whether or not you believe in god you can live by the bible and you'll do alright.

Just because we have reached a point where we believe we are too civilized for religion doesn't mean we should abandon it. It has been historically a tool of progress as much as it has been a way for people shackle forward thinking.

This "form" has been useful to humanity in the past, why recently in our civilization should we abandon it?

I will admit that there have been quite a few examples where religion has been used very badly. Lets assume for the sake of argument these are people who committed these things for the sake of themselves and used religion as a tool.
 
William
 
Reply Mon 11 Jan, 2010 03:19 am
@starfighter,
starfighter;119070 wrote:
Just to make a point here but Judeo-Chistrian religion is what really brought a great majority of the world to civilization. I mean someone sat down, wrote and distributed a group of ideas and eventually a book on how to prepare food and stay clean, how to bury the dead, treat your neighbors good, take care of the sick, poor and elderly.

My grandfather said whether or not you believe in god you can live by the bible and you'll do alright.

Just because we have reached a point where we believe we are too civilized for religion doesn't mean we should abandon it. It has been historically a tool of progress as much as it has been a way for people shackle forward thinking.

This "form" has been useful to humanity in the past, why recently in our civilization should we abandon it?

I will admit that there have been quite a few examples where religion has been used very badly. Lets assume for the sake of argument these are people who committed these things for the sake of themselves and used religion as a tool.


Hello Starfighter, well said. The bible has much wisdom and anyone will be able to find answers they seek within it's covers indicating man's desire to know the truth.

Many doctrine offshoots have sprung from it. Those who disregard it in all it has to say, do so for selfish reasons and you are right, they do use it as a excuse/tool and call those who do find a truth absurd names and will dismiss any thought whatsoever as to what god is to satisfy their own selfishness.

It is a judgmental book and no one likes to be judged especially by another human being. No human being knows enough about god to speak in his stead as to all that god is. In that respect it has caused many problems. But one can understand that those erroneous interpretations can be corrected. The problem is, those who are selfish will not here of it and attach themselves it's flaws to defend themselves.

I think this is what you are saying. Please forgive me if I misinterpreted what you said. I just wanted to add my thoughts in agreeing with you.

Bully ole boy, ha!Smile

William
 
Kielicious
 
Reply Mon 11 Jan, 2010 03:52 am
@starfighter,
starfighter;119070 wrote:

This "form" has been useful to humanity in the past, why recently in our civilization should we abandon it?


For the same reason you abandon the idea of Santa Claus -- its childish, and for anyone to continue believing in such nonsense is deliberately deluding themselves. This doesnt mean you have to give up the concept of god, it just means its time to grow up and stop thinking life is like a fairytale.
 
jeeprs
 
Reply Mon 11 Jan, 2010 04:15 am
@ArthBH,
If religion were as you thought it was, then I would agree with you.
 
Kielicious
 
Reply Mon 11 Jan, 2010 04:22 am
@jeeprs,
All of the major religions are like that and you know it.
 
William
 
Reply Mon 11 Jan, 2010 05:21 am
@ArthBH,
Santa Claus? What is so wrong with a fairy tale that could be a dream? What is wrong with that giving nature of that character as it relates to the child? Perhaps it only sounds like nonsense for we are so far from understanding it as we think our existence is a give and take one. Fairy tales have their truth too. A benevolent god would see to it they would come true. Love is a giving thing. If only all were so...............giving. No one would have to take anything.

William
 
starfighter
 
Reply Mon 11 Jan, 2010 09:08 am
@William,
William;119127 wrote:
Hello Starfighter, well said. The bible has much wisdom and anyone will be able to find answers they seek within it's covers indicating man's desire to know the truth.
It is a judgmental book and no one likes to be judged especially by another human being. No human being knows enough about god to speak in his stead as to all that god is. In that respect it has caused many problems. But one can understand that those erroneous interpretations can be corrected. The problem is, those who are selfish will not here of it and attach themselves it's flaws to defend themselves.


Very true. You are (I am guessing) an intelligent analytical christian. You can be objective and see what needs to be improved. If our religion had more like us I think more people would be likely to believe.

Kielicious;119130 wrote:
For the same reason you abandon the idea of Santa Claus -- its childish, and for anyone to continue believing in such nonsense is deliberately deluding themselves. This doesnt mean you have to give up the concept of god, it just means its time to grow up and stop thinking life is like a fairytale.


Santa Claus never taught people how to prepare and serve food so as not to spread disease. He never gave the world a moral compass. If we lived our life from Santa's example we would all have lots of great stuff, but would we know a clean safe way to handle our dead. Did Santa ever say don't cheat on your old lady, or don't kill your neighbor. If you think religion is as base an idea as do whats right cause god is watching and you won't get your presents when you die I could see how easily you would abandon it.

Kielicious, If you chose to live by the ten commandments, well lets say 8 if we drop the two about false idols and using the Lords name in vain, would that really be that evil? You know, don't cheat on your wife, or kill anyone. Don't lie and respect your elders. If you had no idea how to prepare, serve and store food and you followed the kosher/jewish rules for this would that not help you be healthier and cleaner.

Oh! and go to the deepest darkest corners of the world and its not Santa Claus or some united group of atheists giving out vaccinations, medicine and rice. It's Nuns.

---------- Post added 01-11-2010 at 07:17 AM ----------

jeeprs;119132 wrote:
If religion were as you thought it was, then I would agree with you.


Religion is only a group of people. In my group of people it is, so agree with me. Godlessness has been a tool of war and caused hunger. Look at Red Russia. They abused atheism to there own end and see what it did to them.

In this forum and pretty much any time you bring up religion as a dinner topic I always find these atheists who say how backwards religion while slamming their fist and spitting their chow all over the table. There are Zealots and *******s on all sides.
 
xris
 
Reply Mon 11 Jan, 2010 09:37 am
@starfighter,
Dogma is the enemy, it encourages all who adhere to it to act against any who oppose it. Religion is defined by its dogma, just as the advocates of extreme communism. It stops the advocates from thinking for themselves, they follow the dogma blindly. You sign up for the package when you define yourself as a believer in certain faith or described ethos. If religion was just a moral code that could guide you then it would have no opposition but its more than that, much more.
 
Justin
 
Reply Mon 11 Jan, 2010 10:22 am
@Jebediah,
I haven't read all the posts but a couple caught my eye that I wanted to respond.

Jebediah;117423 wrote:
People have a natural instinct towards religious like beliefs, you can't get rid of that. And I don't know how you would argue that religious people should be converted to atheism.

No, there is no natural instinct towards religion. Absolutely NOT. We are socially conditioned to go towards and seek out a religion. Religion is a device that separates us all.

starfighter;118058 wrote:
I am kind of depressed by what the majority of the people commenting on this post have made into a general consensus of religion.

The OP's generalization seems to have only allowed a negative argument. It might be more poignant to ask a world without faith in an everlasting life past this one, or maybe a specific religion.

There's negative and positive but on the whole, religion and religious divisions based on different faiths divide mankind. They allow for and promote judgment. By joining a religious faith, I now judge others that don't follow my same faith.. this isn't divine, it's divide.

starfighter;118058 wrote:
I have witnessed things that have forced me to believe there is something out there more powerful then my consciousness. If there isn't then we may be lost. (I am kinda in the process of feeling this one out and have been since I can remember) Am I agnostic? Does your word religion = GOD? Explain what counts for religion and I might be able to play devil's advocate on this one.

Everybody has. Funny thing is they usually witness things based upon their perception of things. If you perceive that God is a deity and Christianity is the true religion, then your witnessing of such will first be created within your thoughts prior to manifesting itself into it's physical counterpart.

There's a lot of social conditioning involved in religious belief systems. Cause when we were born, we didn't have any religion. We were groomed and trained by those around us to look in a certain direction. We were taught how to judge right and wrong and conditioned like a well trained dog to believe certain things and based upon traditions, cultural backgrounds, family, social surroundings... these are what form our view or perception of religion and the world.

All these damn religious people in the world and look at it. Just look at it. Watch the news and take a good look around and what religion is doing to divide and provide a device to judge each other. Blind leading the blind as usual. Following blindly the doctrine of man.

WE made GOD in our own image.
 
Caroline
 
Reply Mon 11 Jan, 2010 10:39 am
@ArthBH,
Religion can be also be very dangerous in that indoctrinating children by throwing the bible at them can lead to rebellion and feelings of alienation after not wanting to conform which can sometimes lead to devastating results.
 
Justin
 
Reply Mon 11 Jan, 2010 10:59 am
@Caroline,
But it's not just one religion it's all religions.

All one has to do is take a look at our world and the percentage of our population that dedicates themselves to one religion or another. The proof is in the putting.

Funny thing I see is that we have so many good religious folk in the world, then why is it we are destroying the very thing we're trying to preserve? With all these religions and all these good religious folk, you would think that the world would become a better place, not a worse one. Something is terribly wrong with this 'religious' picture.
 
TickTockMan
 
Reply Mon 11 Jan, 2010 11:00 am
@Caroline,
Caroline;119162 wrote:
Religion can be also be very dangerous in that indoctrinating children by throwing the bible at them can lead to rebellion and feelings of alienation after not wanting to conform which can sometimes lead to devastating results.


Yes, because ordinarily children rarely feel alienated and have an innate desire to conform which can sometimes lead to boring results.
 
Caroline
 
Reply Mon 11 Jan, 2010 11:13 am
@TickTockMan,
TickTockMan;119166 wrote:
Yes, because ordinarily children rarely feel alienated and have an innate desire to conform which can sometimes lead to boring results.
Better to have boring results than a child messed up over religion. And im not sure what you mean. Religion has caused wars and suffering, on the other hand it provides comfort to some.
 
TickTockMan
 
Reply Mon 11 Jan, 2010 11:15 am
@Caroline,
Caroline;119169 wrote:
Better to have boring results than a child messed up over religion.


How do you figure that? Is conformity a good thing?
 
Caroline
 
Reply Mon 11 Jan, 2010 11:16 am
@ArthBH,
No im not sure where you're going with this.

---------- Post added 01-11-2010 at 01:17 PM ----------

I think you misread my post tick tock, and taking it out of context.
 
TickTockMan
 
Reply Mon 11 Jan, 2010 11:32 am
@Caroline,
Caroline;119171 wrote:
No im not sure where you're going with this.

---------- Post added 01-11-2010 at 01:17 PM ----------

I think you misread my post tick tock, and taking it out of context.


Very likely I am.
I was just curious, because you made it sound like religion leads to feelings of rebellion and alienation, and that by not conforming to religion, the results would be devastating. I would argue that conforming can also lead to devastating results.
 
Caroline
 
Reply Mon 11 Jan, 2010 11:34 am
@ArthBH,
No I didn't mean that by not conforming it would lead to devasting results but the fact that some are pushed to conform can send them in the other direction. And I wouldn't say in all cases just some, depends on how religion is pushed onto them, enviroment and other facters play a part too, mix it all up and you got a dysfunctional child and in some cases will portray antisocial tendancies.
Thanks.
 
TickTockMan
 
Reply Mon 11 Jan, 2010 11:40 am
@Caroline,
Caroline;119176 wrote:
. . . mix it all up and you got a dysfunctional child.
Thanks.


Mix it all up, and you've got TickTockMan.

Case in point:

Although I am an Atheist (which I first proclaimed at age 7) I am not convinced that the world would indeed be a better place without religion.
To me, making such a broad claim is taking a narrow view indeed.

But, I'm often wrong about such things.
 
Caroline
 
Reply Mon 11 Jan, 2010 12:02 pm
@TickTockMan,
TickTockMan;119178 wrote:
Mix it all up, and you've got TickTockMan.

Case in point:

Although I am an Atheist (which I first proclaimed at age 7) I am not convinced that the world would indeed be a better place without religion.
To me, making such a broad claim is taking a narrow view indeed.

But, I'm often wrong about such things.
Okay why wouldn't it be a better place? In my view too many wars and suffering are caused by religion.
 
 

 
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