Why a world without religion would be a better place

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TickTockMan
 
Reply Mon 11 Jan, 2010 12:27 pm
@Caroline,
Caroline;119183 wrote:
Okay why wouldn't it be a better place? In my view too many wars and suffering are caused by religion.


Technically, religion in and of itself does not cause war or suffering. Fanatical adherents to a given religious belief often contribute to the causes that lead to war and suffering. It's not the religion (although some religions advocate bloodshed) it's people who cause war and suffering.

Does anyone really believe that war and suffering would vanish if religion were to disappear?

Are there things we would consider good that would also vanish, were religion to go away?
 
Caroline
 
Reply Mon 11 Jan, 2010 12:32 pm
@ArthBH,
That's true ticktock but there have been many wars and many suffering.
 
TickTockMan
 
Reply Mon 11 Jan, 2010 12:44 pm
@Caroline,
Caroline;119188 wrote:
That's true ticktock but there have been many wars and many suffering.


But are wars necessarily bad, even though suffering may come about as a result?

I don't think so.
 
William
 
Reply Mon 11 Jan, 2010 12:47 pm
@Caroline,
Caroline;119162 wrote:
Religion can be also be very dangerous in that indoctrinating children by throwing the bible at them can lead to rebellion and feelings of alienation after not wanting to conform which can sometimes lead to devastating results.


Right Caroline, I agree. Conformity is not something anyone does because they want to. It is something they feel they have to do because of the imposition of external pressure to be something they aren't. Alienation is a bummer and people will do the most atrocious things to belong, like gangs for instance. Religion, some, is no exception.

Justin;119165 wrote:
But it's not just one religion it's all religions.
All one has to do is take a look at our world and the percentage of our population that dedicates themselves to one religion or another. The proof is in the putting.


Justin just how many people are fundamentalist in the tenets they say the belong to is not known. Usually it is just a family tradition. I was raised by Baptists who never went to church nor did they say a prayer except when 'company' was over, ha! I would like to know the numbers though as to just how many live to the letter of their acknowledged belief structure? I think that number would be far less that what we think it is.

Justin;119165 wrote:
Funny thing I see is that we have so many good religious folk in the world, then why is it we are destroying the very thing we're trying to preserve? With all these religions and all these good religious folk, you would think that the world would become a better place, not a worse one. Something is terribly wrong with this 'religious' picture.


I think just using "good folk" is all that is necessary because there are those who believe in god but do not participate in religious rituals or conform to the letter of all those in control tell them to do because they just do not believe all that they are told to believe.
Justin you know me an how I feel about labels of any kind. They suck. Religious or otherwise. Everybody's got to blame somebody and that is the reason we have labels so we can separate ourselves from the "bad folks". Atheist and theist alike do that. So is not just the religious good folk who are destroying. When we talk about those who don't believe, rather than destroying, waste is a more operative word. The religious are much more conservative realistically not politically though there are those politicians who would like for you to think they are, ha! Their opulence speaks otherwise. Of course opulence occurs on both sides.


TickTockMan;119166 wrote:
Yes, because ordinarily children rarely feel alienated and have an innate desire to conform which can sometimes lead to boring results.


Sorry, TTM, I disagree. Children are not conformist by nature. Dependent, yes; we make them conform such a the use of the word "no" illustrates. If there ever was a free spirit it is that of a child. Yes they will attach themselves to that they are the most comfortable, but to conform, it takes another to create a scenario that makes them do that such as can be defined in what peer pressure means.

Caroline;119169 wrote:
Better to have boring results than a child messed up over religion. And im not sure what you mean. Religion has caused wars and suffering, on the other hand it provides comfort to some.


It is the boredom imposed by not being able to conform that leads one to religion and the fellowship it offers. That doesn't mean it is in all cases right, but it beats being alone. Sure there is guilt involve in not only religious power, but it can be levied on those who don't conform to non-religious populous structures as well.

I don't think there are that many children that are that messed up over the religious dictates as we might think. Though those who are, do have the loudest voices, no doubt. But those could just be excuses too to justify an amoral behavior at a time in their life where popularity takes precedence. People will go to extraordinary lengths to be the life of the party and there are some pretty weird parties going on.

There is a big difference in actually attending a local church and seeing what is depicted on the television. Yes there are the preachers who do their thing and most of those who attend sort of just get used to that, but the fellowship among it's members is what is impressive and so very unselfish. I do realize that some are just putting on appearances but many do not and truly get a reward for helping.

William
 
TickTockMan
 
Reply Mon 11 Jan, 2010 12:51 pm
@William,
William;119192 wrote:

Sorry, TTM, I disagree. Children are not conformist by nature. Dependent, yes; we make them conform such a the use of the word "no" illustrates. If there ever was a free spirit it is that of a child. Yes they will attach themselves to that they are the most comfortable, but to conform, it takes another to create a scenario that makes them do that such as can be defined in what peer pressure means.

William


That whooshing sound you heard was sarcasm flying over your head.
 
xris
 
Reply Mon 11 Jan, 2010 01:13 pm
@Caroline,
Caroline;119176 wrote:
No I didn't mean that by not conforming it would lead to devasting results but the fact that some are pushed to conform can send them in the other direction. And I wouldn't say in all cases just some, depends on how religion is pushed onto them, enviroment and other facters play a part too, mix it all up and you got a dysfunctional child and in some cases will portray antisocial tendancies.
Thanks.
Hi Caroline hows it going, happy new year...I was sent to baptist school and in the main enjoyed the experience, they never baptised me as they claimed I was never really ready. I was blessed with a questioning mind that had me cross many elders in their interpretation of scriptures. It gave me certain moral responsibility and Im grateful for that but it also showed me that by certain members of our congregation , proclaiming and acting on faith is two different things completely. Honesty is a requirement with or without faith and never trust a man just because he claims belief. We must never indoctrinate our youth but give them choices. Teaching dogma and not humility is the greatest mistake we can ever make.
 
Hi My Name Is
 
Reply Mon 11 Jan, 2010 01:43 pm
@ArthBH,
Ok, since I am an aethist I have to agree with you. But one of my classmates who is highly Christian may argue with you. If she had enough brains to say this, I think she would imply that religion is a faith and that in these hard times that is exactly what everyone needs- faith.
 
TickTockMan
 
Reply Mon 11 Jan, 2010 01:47 pm
@Hi My Name Is,
I'm wondering, when someone says, "the world would be a better place without religion," who are they saying it would be better for? (or to be grammatically correct, for whom are they saying it would be better?)
 
xris
 
Reply Mon 11 Jan, 2010 02:09 pm
@Hi My Name Is,
Hi! My Name Is:;119206 wrote:
Ok, since I am an aethist I have to agree with you. But one of my classmates who is highly Christian may argue with you. If she had enough brains to say this, I think she would imply that religion is a faith and that in these hard times that is exactly what everyone needs- faith.
Faith requires a certain certainty and if your not certain then faith is an impossibility. Ask a christian why he does not believe Mohamed is a prophet or a Muslim why he thinks Christ is not the son of god? You cant demand faith.

---------- Post added 01-11-2010 at 03:13 PM ----------

TickTockMan;119208 wrote:
I'm wondering, when someone says, "the world would be a better place without religion," who are they saying it would be better for? (or to be grammatically correct, for whom are they saying it would be better?)
If I try to weigh up the pros and cons, in all honesty I cant really say. I dont like dishonest faith or dogmatic faith but I admire certain singers who sing its praises.
 
William
 
Reply Mon 11 Jan, 2010 03:18 pm
@TickTockMan,
TickTockMan;119208 wrote:
I'm wondering, when someone says, "the world would be a better place without religion," who are they saying it would be better for? (or to be grammatically correct, for whom are they saying it would be better?)


That's like asking who would benefit more from global harmony!

William
 
starfighter
 
Reply Mon 11 Jan, 2010 03:44 pm
@Justin,
Justin;119160 wrote:
I haven't read all the posts but a couple caught my eye that I wanted to respond.


No, there is no natural instinct towards religion. Absolutely NOT. We are socially conditioned to go towards and seek out a religion. Religion is a device that separates us all.


Some are socially conditioned. Uh-lot of atheists think they aren't getting fooled by religion, believing in some ungrounded mysticism. You may call it a consciousness, I call it a soul... but humans have it, nothing else on earth does. I would agree that animals do not have an instinct for religion but humans wonder and ask why naturally. Thus a natural condition that religion relieves pretty readily.


Justin;119160 wrote:
negative and positive but on the whole, religion and religious divisions based on different faiths divide mankind. They allow for and promote judgment. By joining a religious faith, I now judge others that don't follow my same faith.. this isn't divine, it's divide.


This is absolutely erroneous. I hear this from every Atheist's mouthpiece like its some great truth that they have discovered. Any group or gathering judges another. Hell, 1/3 of our government is judicial. Laughing As humans we huddle in our groups to demonize the opposition to justify our machinations eventually destroying what we fear, religious or not. This is Natural Selection. We are a social animal so we can't just fall on the regular rules of the bigger badder one wins. We organize to our ends. We adapt and overcome. We use that big brain of ours to make it much more complicated.


Justin;119160 wrote:
Everybody has. Funny thing is they usually witness things based upon their perception of things. If you perceive that God is a deity and Christianity is the true religion, then your witnessing of such will first be created within your thoughts prior to manifesting itself into it's physical counterpart.


I was an Atheist. God did not make sense. I was given the opportunity to defend my country in a theater of combat and witnessed things that prove to me there is much more then what we understand. Proof of a higher power I guess. Everything anyone has ever come up with is based on perception, but just because I am religious does not mean I am unable to think outside of some conditioning.

Justin;119160 wrote:
a lot of social conditioning involved in religious belief systems. Cause when we were born, we didn't have any religion. We were groomed and trained by those around us to look in a certain direction. We were taught how to judge right and wrong and conditioned like a well trained dog to believe certain things and based upon traditions, cultural backgrounds, family, social surroundings... these are what form our view or perception of religion and the world.

As humanity we were born without religion. We developed it during our evolution socially. It was something that humanity needed. It has survived our social evolution and will indefinitely. Religion is part of the human condition. Aliens didn't land and make cavemen go to mass. Its our invention.

Justin;119160 wrote:
all these damn religious people in the world and look at it. Just look at it. Watch the news and take a good look around and what religion is doing to divide and provide a device to judge each other. Blind leading the blind as usual. Following blindly the doctrine of man.

WE made GOD in our own image.


Thats people, not religion man. God (I'll use that word I guess) made us in his image. I don't think he snapped a polaroid of himself in the mirror myspace style and photocopied it. Humanity can create anything it imagines, we have so far. We must be wise and beautiful. We will evolve into perfection or destroy ourselves, one or the other. Religion exists, we must evolve with it, it is symbiotic.

Besides the point I am making. I appreciate your direct rebuttal to what I wrote. I appreciate your opinion and the opportunity to discuss this. I'm gonna bust you a thank you not cause I agree but more cause I appreciate the intelligent rebuttal.
 
TickTockMan
 
Reply Mon 11 Jan, 2010 03:46 pm
@William,
William;119228 wrote:
That's like asking who would benefit more from global harmony!

William


No it's not.

It's asking, "who would be better off if religion did not exist?"

Global harmony has nothing to do with it. Unless you think that
global harmony would be the result of having no religion in the world.

But since you ask, who would benefit more from global harmony?
 
starfighter
 
Reply Mon 11 Jan, 2010 03:57 pm
@TickTockMan,
The idea of global harmony makes me sick. If we are perfect where will we grow from there? If we know everything then every book is a Bible and there will be no need to argue anything. Everything will already be decided. Harmony, puke. All this religion and competition and free thinking is great. We grow and learn and conquer and are reborn in what we discover.
 
xris
 
Reply Mon 11 Jan, 2010 04:02 pm
@starfighter,
But we are evolving, away from the accepted practices of centuries of blind faith. Religion has not always been this benign friendly cosy thing. It is only in recent times as it showed any compassion in its actions to its congregation. As an agnostic I dont discount a possibility but I can certainly discount many dogmatic faiths that inhabit this world. Morals of the church where being displayed when slavery was accepted by all, including the clergy. Morals are not dictated by god but men who have empathy to others ,no matter their faith. Certain dogmatic driven morals in my opinion are despicable and they have no chance of moderation because of the dogma they come from. It has served its purpose, for me it has no reason to continue.
 
William
 
Reply Mon 11 Jan, 2010 06:00 pm
@xris,
TickTockMan;119238 wrote:
No it's not.
It's asking, "who would be better off if religion did not exist?"
Global harmony has nothing to do with it. Unless you think that
global harmony would be the result of having no religion in the world.
But since you ask, who would benefit more from global harmony?


With the world at peace cooperating together in harmonic structure like everything else on this planet, the would be no need for religion and those various defense mechanisms.

Anyone opposed to aspiring towards a global harmony does so only selfishly without realizing they too will be a part of that harmonic structure. Only those who want more would attempt any interference in doing all that is necessary to begin building that road.

starfighter;119239 wrote:
The idea of global harmony makes me sick. If we are perfect where will we grow from there? If we know everything then every book is a Bible and there will be no need to argue anything. Everything will already be decided. Harmony, puke. All this religion and competition and free thinking is great. We grow and learn and conquer and are reborn in what we discover.


I didn't say a "perfect world"! Yes, cooperating towards that perfection will be a group effort. I am not talking about next week all of a sudden we harmonize and all knowledge is known. No! Harmony is a synergistic paradigm in which we work together to ensure tomorrow has some meaning that can be looked forward to by all humans.

What are you conquering and why are you conquering it?

William
 
Kielicious
 
Reply Mon 11 Jan, 2010 06:01 pm
@starfighter,
starfighter;119149 wrote:

Santa Claus never taught people how to prepare and serve food so as not to spread disease.


Hmmm where to begin...

You're absolutely right about Santa Claus not telling people how to prepare and serve food, and yet, the point being made has gone unnoticed by you. Should I type it out in bold print with astericks labeled all over it? No, Im fairly certain you can see the point of the analogy -- at least I hope.


starfighter wrote:
He never gave the world a moral compass. If we lived our life from Santa's example we would all have lots of great stuff, but would we know a clean safe way to handle our dead. Did Santa ever say don't cheat on your old lady, or don't kill your neighbor. If you think religion is as base an idea as do whats right cause god is watching and you won't get your presents when you die I could see how easily you would abandon it.


Again, you're absolutely right, Santa didnt give us a 'moral compass'. Why didnt he? Well, I dont know, maybe because, HE ISNT REAL. See the connection?

starfighter wrote:
Kielicious, If you chose to live by the ten commandments, well lets say 8 if we drop the two about false idols and using the Lords name in vain, would that really be that evil? You know, don't cheat on your wife, or kill anyone. Don't lie and respect your elders. If you had no idea how to prepare, serve and store food and you followed the kosher/jewish rules for this would that not help you be healthier and cleaner.


Ahh yes, the infamous Ten Commandments.... why isnt rape on there? Maybe god was too busy being a jealous egomaniac and had to put that crap about not worshipping anyone else but him instead? Maybe. You should never tell a lie? I guess god's thought process doesnt have much depth. Can you think of a situation where lying is beneficial? I thought so.

Why would I think that not killing someone would be evil? Is the point that killing people isnt good, or is it that this line of thinking isnt promoted by religion? We as a species (and nearly all species for that matter) know not to needlessly kill one another. If we didnt we never would have made it far enough for religion to even develope. So what's the point? Religion didnt enlighten any new knowledge upon humanity. To think otherwise is an insult to every living creature because, after all, they dont have religion and they can easily figure this out.

starfighter wrote:
Oh! and go to the deepest darkest corners of the world and its not Santa Claus or some united group of atheists giving out vaccinations, medicine and rice. It's Nuns.



First off, who created the vaccines? Religion or Science? I thought so.

Second, religion -TO THIS DAY- detains appropriate measures of controlling such outbreaks. Just look at the catholic church and condom use in africa. Millions upon millions have died, and continue to suffer and die because the church thinks condoms are wrong.

Dont you dare imply that religion is a force for good when its clearly marinated in discrimination.

The point is that religion is BS. Its not real. Nothing about any of the major religions bear any merit on reality. Does it make people feel all warm and fuzzy inside knowing they have an invisible father figure watching out for them? Of course, but heres the kicker: is it true? NO, and thats why we need to get rid of it. Are talking snakes, global floods, man created from dust, etc. true? No, so why follow it? In all honesty if I was spiritual I would think that such cartoonish depictions of god would be embarrassing to be associated by. Being spiritual is fine and believing in 'god' is fine, but be mature about it.
 
Justin
 
Reply Mon 11 Jan, 2010 06:10 pm
@xris,
Hi! My Name Is:;119206 wrote:
Ok, since I am an aethist I have to agree with you. But one of my classmates who is highly Christian may argue with you. If she had enough brains to say this, I think she would imply that religion is a faith and that in these hard times that is exactly what everyone needs- faith.

Faith is not needed at all IMHO. One can argue faith like they argue the beginning of man with Adam and Eve. The reality of it is we place our faith in the various hands of the men who have written things. The same men who at the time couldn't have fathomed the way we are communicating today.

starfighter;119237 wrote:
Some are socially conditioned. Uh-lot of atheists think they aren't getting fooled by religion, believing in some ungrounded mysticism. You may call it a consciousness, I call it a soul... but humans have it, nothing else on earth does. I would agree that animals do not have an instinct for religion but humans wonder and ask why naturally. Thus a natural condition that religion relieves pretty readily.

We are all socially conditioned. We come into the world knowing nothing. We are taught right from wrong we are taught to judge we are trained like you'd train a puppy. Poop here not there, NO NO.

Humans are not instinctively driven to religion. They instinctively receive all their information as passive recipients while young and take this conditioning with them when they age an mature. Instinctively, mankind is seeking some sort of divine answer to questions he cannot answer himself. Instinctively we desire to know, not just have blind faith. The problem is we seek answers in the 'chase' from other people, books, parents, grandparents. Everything we are confronted with, every instance of our existence plays a role in what we have faith in. We seek answers in things, in physical manifestations. We aren't us, we are and become an EGO. We become the person we dress and clothe and we become attached to physical things. Our faiths satisfy the thirst of the Ego which is who we are.

Humans are growing more and more into a consciousness level that was described by Christ. Not that I believe everything Christ said because that was all hearsay as well.

Animals trees the water and everything in this world has the same divine breath of life that we all have. Maybe on different levels, maybe in different ways but ultimately, if there's a God that presence of such is within all creation. The depth and breadth of life. Ever evolving, ever changing, every growing closer and closer to it's sources and shedding the illusive need for faith in what other men have indoctrinated on other men.

starfighter;119237 wrote:
This is absolutely erroneous. I hear this from every Atheist's mouthpiece like its some great truth that they have discovered. Any group or gathering judges another. Hell, 1/3 of our government is judicial. Laughing As humans we huddle in our groups to demonize the opposition to justify our machinations eventually destroying what we fear, religious or not. This is Natural Selection. We are a social animal so we can't just fall on the regular rules of the bigger badder one wins. We organize to our ends. We adapt and overcome. We use that big brain of ours to make it much more complicated.

You are entitled to your opinion but prior to religion, humans had nothing to judge. There was no yardstick to judge one another by. Religion has provided man with the yardstick for judgment and judgment is like a cancer that consumes us all. What we don't understand is that when we judge, we become the judged. We create problems in our world with judgment and if there were no religions and we all understood who we are and why we are, then we'd see ourselves and our reflection within everyone we encounter.

Neighbors don't talk to each other because of different religious beliefs. It destroys families, one being my own family who is radical Christianity. The judgment coming from those who think they know or who have dedicated themselves to the faith and doctrine another man has laid out before them... Many will fight to their death over their belief in their religion and we see examples of that all over the world. Christians are no different than Muslims. They kill each other mostly over religion. So religion doesn't stand very tall in my book.

starfighter;119237 wrote:
I was an Atheist. God did not make sense. I was given the opportunity to defend my country in a theater of combat and witnessed things that prove to me there is much more then what we understand. Proof of a higher power I guess. Everything anyone has ever come up with is based on perception, but just because I am religious does not mean I am unable to think outside of some conditioning.

You were an atheist. That's simply a label for the ego. It's not really what you were because while you were an atheist, you were still you, not the label. If you were the label, the label would not have changed.

Of course, people come to realize that there is a power that is beyond their current comprehension and much of what Christ again tried to describe but people comprehendeth not. Lao Tsu, the buddah, these great illuminates were able to comprehend something most people could not which lead to confusion and 'Man making GOD in his own image'.

Yes, much of what people think and feel have much to so with perception. We perceive, we reflect what we perceive and then we perceive the reflection as something outside of us. However, there are some, more and more today that see things differently.... vibrate on a level of conscious thought and energy that cannot be understood by the masses. Trying to explain would only lead to confusion. There are some that are on a totally different level of vibratory thought and realization of which there is no need for faith. People scratch their head and don't understand yet they don't seek answers within the divine inspiration that is within. It's hard to hear truth in all the chatter in world, one has to rise above it and out of it and then when we look down and see the world, much light is shed on WHY.

starfighter;119237 wrote:
As humanity we were born without religion. We developed it during our evolution socially. It was something that humanity needed. It has survived our social evolution and will indefinitely. Religion is part of the human condition. Aliens didn't land and make cavemen go to mass. Its our invention.

Aliens may have landed. How can we explain the pyramids. LOL. No really, cavemen didn't go to mass. They didn't have religions back then thus they more than likely didn't have mass. Religions, as you've said were created by man. So the heads of the religions, or the gods, wouldn't those too be creations of man?

Humanity, just like dogs in the alley or the cats on the street, develop a heirarchy of leadership. Mankind in the days of formation of religion were gullible to believe almost anything coming from an educated man. They first thought the sun was a god or the super power outside themselves, then over the years, people evolved and better writings came out, more creative stories and more believable experiences and then faith. They taught that you must have faith because intellect and reason would lead elsewhere so one must have and embrace faith. Trouble is, the faith we have is based upon the creativity of another human being, a more educated and followed one.

You see, our instict is not to find religion but to follow a leader. Whether it be a pastor in our church or the book we have by our bedside. Humankind is a group of species that follows each other. We follow in the footsteps set before us by those who travelled that road before we did. We veer off, we start thinking and reflecting what is and sometimes we even find a quiet place where we discover yet more. Those illuminates are usually thought of as crazy because the doctrine of the God man created in his image has been followed so long that if we were betting men, it's best to bet on religion so we don't go to hell. It's silly really. There's no hell and no heaven aside from that which we've created.



starfighter;119237 wrote:
Thats people, not religion man. God (I'll use that word I guess) made us in his image. I don't think he snapped a polaroid of himself in the mirror myspace style and photocopied it. Humanity can create anything it imagines, we have so far. We must be wise and beautiful. We will evolve into perfection or destroy ourselves, one or the other. Religion exists, we must evolve with it, it is symbiotic.

God did not make us in his image, we made God in our image. Now the story that leads us to belief in this was written in Genesis, thousands and thousands of years after these stories could have actually taken place. So to believe for a moment that God made man and not the other way around, to me is silly when we all know deep down who manufactured all these different deities worshipped in the world. They are manifesations of man.

Think about it. God has never been seen, never been made known and all the various descriptions and myths about this god and his coming again and all that other crap was invented by man. Again, first the sun was god and then God evolved into the image of man. God has evolved from the sun, to a flower to a deity that looks like you and I but much larger and more powerful today. If that's believable, then I have some ocean front property in Arizona with a purple unicorn you can ride around on top of the water. LOL. See what I mean.

Mankind is creative and we getting more and more creative. So creative that we can take one religion, Christianity and divide it up into branches and divisions and different flavors to the point where the flavor of Christianity one chooses is the flavor that tastes best in their mouth based solely on their perception, detached from theselves but attached to 'things' and 'ego'.

starfighter;119237 wrote:
Besides the point I am making. I appreciate your direct rebuttal to what I wrote. I appreciate your opinion and the opportunity to discuss this. I'm gonna bust you a thank you not cause I agree but more cause I appreciate the intelligent rebuttal.

Likewise brother. We can agree to disagree. Doesn't matter to me either way. Talking about this sort of stuff is good for all of us and as a religious person, it's admirable of you to have an open mind and not allow your faith to blind thine eyes.

I may not answer again for a while because sometimes I just think, ponder and meditate, besides I'm busy with another website and all those things in life that consume our time and keep us out of touch with who we really are.

Peace!
 
TickTockMan
 
Reply Mon 11 Jan, 2010 06:34 pm
@William,
William;119252 wrote:
With the world at peace cooperating together in harmonic structure like everything else on this planet, the would be no need for religion and those various defense mechanisms.

Harmonic structure like everything else on this planet? Where are you seeing that happening? Certainly not in the animal kingdom. In some instances, not even in the plant kingdom. Or the insect kingdom, for that matter.

William;119252 wrote:
Anyone opposed to aspiring towards a global harmony does so only selfishly without realizing they too will be a part of that harmonic structure. Only those who want more would attempt any interference in doing all that is necessary to begin building that road.


Sounds dreadful. Again, I have to ask, who decides what this harmony entails?
Explain why wanting more out of life is a bad thing.
 
Brandon Norgaard
 
Reply Mon 11 Jan, 2010 11:51 pm
@ArthBH,
I do not believe that there is anything necessarily wrong with religion. Religion is simply belief in the supernatural, usually accompanied with rituals and worship. Now, I am a deist, which does involve belief in the supernatural, though this is a conclusion that I reached through observation and reason. I have concluded that the best explanation for the universe being as it is and not different is that it was created by a higher power that could have acted otherwise. This explanation is supernatural, but this does not necessarily make it wrong. I will take the merits of this argument to the topics about arguments for and against God. This is not my point here. My point is that religion is not necessarily wrong because I can see religious belief that is perfectly rational.

Now, belief is not the same thing as faith. Faith is belief despite the lack of evidence, or even in the face of counter-evidence. I have concluded that faith is inherently irrational and often leads to suffering and death. The world would be better with less influence from the major religions that emphasize faith. Christians, Jews, and Muslims are all taught from an early age to simply believe what their scriptures say, despite the lack of evidence. As they grow older, their minds are often out of touch with reality and they discount clear evidence that their religious beliefs are false and that there is a better way of understanding reality. Their beliefs also often lead them to identify with fellow believers and to harm or even kill those who they consider non-believers.

We need to take a stand against this. There is a better way. We should live our lives based on observation and reason and try to help those blinded by religious faith to see the light.
 
Kielicious
 
Reply Tue 12 Jan, 2010 02:50 am
@Brandon Norgaard,
Brandon_Norgaard;119309 wrote:

We need to take a stand against this. There is a better way. We should live our lives based on observation and reason and try to help those blinded by religious faith to see the light.



Agreed.

I am anxiously awaiting for the time when theism becomes obsolete by deism. There just is no rational way to not only defend, but even promote theism at all. Even if one was to concede the first cause argument you still have all the work ahead of you to somehow remotely convince people that this cause is indeed your own skewed interpretation of reality. And lots of luck because would anyone with at least mediocre awareness even want some of its unabriged doctrine? I would hope not... ..unless of course you want to be a servant to authority..
 
 

 
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