Why a world without religion would be a better place

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josh0335
 
Reply Tue 12 Jan, 2010 04:12 am
@Kielicious,
Kielicious;119253 wrote:
HE ISNT REAL. See the connection?


I certainly missed the connection. Religion is definitely real, it's all around you.

Quote:
Dont you dare imply that religion is a force for good when its clearly marinated in discrimination.
History has shown us that religion can be a force for good. Pre-Islam Arabia was a society where men would bury their newborn daughters alive as they were considered burdens; where slavery was normal; where tribal warfare was rife etc. These things were ended and replaced with something better by Islam. It's strange that you said religion is not a force for 'good' when it's clear that to determine good from bad you need a moral standard. So you're essentially saying 'religion bought nothing good according to my moral standard.' But what makes your moral standard so great?

Quote:
The point is that religion is BS. Its not real. Nothing about any of the major religions bear any merit on reality. Does it make people feel all warm and fuzzy inside knowing they have an invisible father figure watching out for them? Of course, but heres the kicker: is it true? NO, and thats why we need to get rid of it. Are talking snakes, global floods, man created from dust, etc. true? No, so why follow it? In all honesty if I was spiritual I would think that such cartoonish depictions of god would be embarrassing to be associated by. Being spiritual is fine and believing in 'god' is fine, but be mature about it.
Again, religion is real. And you don't know whether the examples you've mentioned are true or not. So it's not 'mature' according to your standards?

We all have different moral standards, regardless of whether we follow a religion or not. Religions are a reflection of this variety.
 
Kielicious
 
Reply Tue 12 Jan, 2010 05:09 am
@josh0335,
josh0335;119320 wrote:
I certainly missed the connection. Religion is definitely real, it's all around you.


:Not-Impressed:

josh0335 wrote:
History has shown us that religion can be a force for good. Pre-Islam Arabia was a society where men would bury their newborn daughters alive as they were considered burdens; where slavery was normal; where tribal warfare was rife etc. These things were ended and replaced with something better by Islam. It's strange that you said religion is not a force for 'good' when it's clear that to determine good from bad you need a moral standard. So you're essentially saying 'religion bought nothing good according to my moral standard.' But what makes your moral standard so great?

Again, religion is real. And you don't know whether the examples you've mentioned are true or not. So it's not 'mature' according to your standards?



Even though the morality argument is somehow thrown around today as if it were something original, its still easy to refute. But instead, seeing how the bigger picture of my argument isnt tied down to such secondary (and clearly outdated) material, I want to hear something new...

So I am asking you, or any theist for that matter, to argue in favor of theism. I will graciously concede (for the moment) that god exists and is omnibenevolent, holds the absolute standard of morality, et cetera, etc. but I want to hear why and how you can come to know ANYTHING about this being's intentions. Because, after all, he/she/it is NECESSARILY beyond perceptable reality. So go ahead, Im waiting to be convinced...
 
xris
 
Reply Tue 12 Jan, 2010 05:46 am
@josh0335,
josh0335;119320 wrote:
I certainly missed the connection. Religion is definitely real, it's all around you.

History has shown us that religion can be a force for good. Pre-Islam Arabia was a society where men would bury their newborn daughters alive as they were considered burdens; where slavery was normal; where tribal warfare was rife etc. These things were ended and replaced with something better by Islam. It's strange that you said religion is not a force for 'good' when it's clear that to determine good from bad you need a moral standard. So you're essentially saying 'religion bought nothing good according to my moral standard.' But what makes your moral standard so great?

Again, religion is real. And you don't know whether the examples you've mentioned are true or not. So it's not 'mature' according to your standards?

We all have different moral standards, regardless of whether we follow a religion or not. Religions are a reflection of this variety.
Islam may have improved mans ethics and moral values but it did not invent them or make them perfect. It controlled slavery but it did not ban it. We as humans at every stage in our history improve by reason. The dogma of faith can stop these improvements because although they where relevant at the time, they may not be now. Every religion has these dogmatic problems,they cause no end of ethical problems for its followers.
 
josh0335
 
Reply Tue 12 Jan, 2010 06:09 am
@Kielicious,
Kielicious;119323 wrote:
Even though the morality argument is somehow thrown around today as if it were something original, its still easy to refute. But instead, seeing how the bigger picture of my argument isnt tied down to such secondary (and clearly outdated) material, I want to hear something new...


Just for my benefit, would you mind refuting it?

Quote:
So I am asking you, or any theist for that matter, to argue in favor of theism. I will graciously concede (for the moment) that god exists and is omnibenevolent, holds the absolute standard of morality, et cetera, etc. but I want to hear why and how you can come to know ANYTHING about this being's intentions. Because, after all, he/she/it is NECESSARILY beyond perceptable reality. So go ahead, Im waiting to be convinced...


I thought this thread was about religion and not theism. Buddhism is a religion but not a theistic one. Once you accept a God exists, any behaviour that comes from a result of this belief is essentially religion. I don't understand why you would think deism is an acceptable belief but not theism. Neither can be established by conventional or emperical means so why the differentiation? I mean according to your example of Santa, deism is just as 'not true' as theism.

If a God exists and chooses to reveal certain things about Himself, then it is possible to know what His intentions are. This can happen through scriptures or Prophets or mere personal experience. You might not like it but so what? If you don't think it's mature, then show us a standard for what maturity is and we can establish whether you have a point. I reiterate that people have different standards of morality and living in general, even without religion, so to claim that religion is the big evil because it discriminates between people is to ignore this fundamental human trait. Discrimination and differences would happen even in a world without religion, or theism or whatever.
 
Caroline
 
Reply Tue 12 Jan, 2010 06:48 am
@TickTockMan,
TickTockMan;119191 wrote:
But are wars necessarily bad, even though suffering may come about as a result?

I don't think so.
I thinks so, I think war causes death and suffering. The opposite is peace, that would be a fine thing.

William;119192 wrote:





I don't think there are that many children that are that messed up over the religious dictates as we might think. Though those who are, do have the loudest voices, no doubt. But those could just be excuses too to justify an amoral behavior at a time in their life where popularity takes precedence. People will go to extraordinary lengths to be the life of the party and there are some pretty weird parties going on.
William
I just think in some cases, I'm talking really about extreme cases.

xris;119198 wrote:
Hi Caroline hows it going, happy new year...I was sent to baptist school and in the main enjoyed the experience, they never baptised me as they claimed I was never really ready. I was blessed with a questioning mind that had me cross many elders in their interpretation of scriptures. It gave me certain moral responsibility and Im grateful for that but it also showed me that by certain members of our congregation , proclaiming and acting on faith is two different things completely. Honesty is a requirement with or without faith and never trust a man just because he claims belief. We must never indoctrinate our youth but give them choices. Teaching dogma and not humility is the greatest mistake we can ever make.
I'm good thanks xris, you? Happy new year to you too. Yes I agree that we should never shove religion down childrens throats, that they should have the choice and freedom to think and make their own choice.
 
TickTockMan
 
Reply Tue 12 Jan, 2010 10:59 am
@Caroline,
Caroline;119328 wrote:
I thinks so, I think war causes death and suffering. The opposite is peace, that would be a fine thing.

Yes, peace is a fine thing indeed. But what would it be if it had no
opposite? How would you know what it was?

Don't you think that war can also prevent perhaps greater pain and suffering
from happening later on?
 
Kielicious
 
Reply Tue 12 Jan, 2010 11:09 am
@josh0335,
josh0335;119326 wrote:
Just for my benefit, would you mind refuting it?


Just for everyone's benefit, would you mind showing how your skewed interpretation of god is correct?

As for your statement that deism is just like santa claus, its not. Deism doesnt make any claims regarding this beings nature. Its an a priori claim that doesnt deal with such trivial, and clearly laughable remarks about the cause itself. All it says is that a 'first cause' is necessary. Thats it. Now stop avoiding the question and answer it.
 
Caroline
 
Reply Tue 12 Jan, 2010 11:13 am
@TickTockMan,
TickTockMan;119378 wrote:
Yes, peace is a fine thing indeed. But what would it be if it had no
opposite? How would you know what it was?

Don't you think that war can also prevent perhaps greater pain and suffering
from happening later on?

But we do have war so we do know what peace is and we will always know what peace is from wars in history. I'm not sure what you mean by your last sentence, maybe an example?
 
TickTockMan
 
Reply Tue 12 Jan, 2010 12:16 pm
@Caroline,
Caroline;119384 wrote:
I'm not sure what you mean by your last sentence, maybe an example?


Perhaps by moving in to aid in eliminating a regime that is committing genocide?
 
josh0335
 
Reply Tue 12 Jan, 2010 06:28 pm
@Kielicious,
Kielicious;119382 wrote:
Just for everyone's benefit, would you mind showing how your skewed interpretation of god is correct?


What was skewed about it? And my interpretation of God comes from my personal feelings and my religion. It cannot be shown to be 'correct' as it is a belief. This is pretty basic stuff which I know that you know.

Quote:
As for your statement that deism is just like santa claus, its not. Deism doesnt make any claims regarding this beings nature. Its an a priori claim that doesnt deal with such trivial, and clearly laughable remarks about the cause itself. All it says is that a 'first cause' is necessary. Thats it.
We clearly have a different understanding of deism. Deists believe in a God, not merely a 'first cause'. The first cause could have been an unconscious event, but that's not what deists call God. Even atheists I know believe in an a priori first cause, but see no reason to believe it was a conscious being.

Quote:
Now stop avoiding the question and answer it.
I did. Here it is again:

If a God exists and chooses to reveal certain things about Himself, then it is possible to know what His intentions are. This can happen through scriptures or Prophets or mere personal experience. You might not like it but so what? If you don't think it's mature, then show us a standard for what maturity is and we can establish whether you have a point. I reiterate that people have different standards of morality and living in general, even without religion, so to claim that religion is the big evil because it discriminates between people is to ignore this fundamental human trait. Discrimination and differences would happen even in a world without religion, or theism or whatever.

So are you going to answer any of my questions?
 
Kielicious
 
Reply Tue 12 Jan, 2010 06:37 pm
@josh0335,
josh0335;119507 wrote:
What was skewed about it? And my interpretation of God comes from my personal feelings and my religion. It cannot be shown to be 'correct' as it is a belief. This is pretty basic stuff which I know that you know.


What is your religion and we will go from there.

josh wrote:
We clearly have a different understanding of deism. Deists believe in a God, not merely a 'first cause'. The first cause could have been an unconscious event, but that's not what deists call God. Even atheists I know believe in an a priori first cause, but see no reason to believe it was a conscious being.


Deism can be interpreted in many ways, but Im using the version with the least amount of assumptions because, you know, anything else tacked on is pure speculation.
 
William
 
Reply Tue 12 Jan, 2010 07:14 pm
@ArthBH,
TickTockMan;119267 wrote:
Harmonic structure like everything else on this planet? Where are you seeing that happening? Certainly not in the animal kingdom. In some instances, not even in the plant kingdom. Or the insect kingdom, for that matter.


The plant and animal kingdom are absolutely harmonic if we take us out of the picture. Disharmony is with us, at present, in the picture in that we have not found an equilibrium that will harmonize with it or balance, if you will. The Earth, to maintain her balance could easily take us out of the picture.

That harmony I am talking about is more of a cooperation between humans similar to what the animals have that we know as instinct. It is a collective consciousness that has never been, but meant to be. More complicated, yes but we must attune with each other, complimentary with one another to achieve a maximum utility and what that will bring.

TickTockMan;119267 wrote:
Sounds dreadful.


Easy on the smug echos, ttm.

TickTockMan;119267 wrote:
Again, I have to ask, who decides what this harmony entails?


We do, when the chaos becomes unbearable.

TickTockMan;119267 wrote:
Explain why wanting more out of life is a bad thing.


Why would you want more than you need?

William
 
TickTockMan
 
Reply Wed 13 Jan, 2010 11:55 am
@William,
William;119524 wrote:
That harmony I am talking about is more of a cooperation between humans similar to what the animals have that we know as instinct. It is a collective consciousness that has never been, but meant to be. More complicated, yes but we must attune with each other, complimentary with one another to achieve a maximum utility and what that will bring.


A few links for your entertainment:
wolfbehavior :: All you need to know about Wolves
AGONISTIC BEHAVIOR OF THE RUSSET GROUND SQUIRREL (SPERMOPHILUS MAJOR, RODENTIA, SCIURIDAE)
[email protected]
Borg Collective - Memory Alpha, the Star Trek Wiki
JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie
The ABC's of Chimpanzee Behavior
territorial behaviour (biology) -- Britannica Online Encyclopedia
Red in tooth and claw

William;119524 wrote:
Easy on the smug echos, ttm.

No smugness here. To me, the world you describe sounds awful,
like a society where there is no black or white, or even any color.
Just a bland and even-toned shade of gray where there is no incentive
to soar as a human being or even to express oneself artistically.
Sorry, but I like extra spice, double the calories, and triple the caffeine
in my world, and since I believe in owning up and taking personal
responsibility for one's own actions, decisions, and choices, I will
hold only myself accountable for any disasters that ensue.



William;119524 wrote:
We do, when the chaos becomes unbearable.

But who makes the decision of what is unbearable?
People have different levels of tolerance for such things.



William;119524 wrote:
Why would you want more than you need?

I don't, but I might want more than I have. When did that become a bad thing?
And who decides what I need?
 
josh0335
 
Reply Thu 14 Jan, 2010 08:05 am
@Kielicious,
Kielicious;119510 wrote:
What is your religion and we will go from there.


My religion is Islam.

Quote:
Deism can be interpreted in many ways, but Im using the version with the least amount of assumptions because, you know, anything else tacked on is pure speculation.


I'm arguing that your version of deism is not deism at all. Believing in a first cause doesn't make you a deist. I don't have a problem with you believing that deism is a better belief than theism, but I object to you using the santa analogy with one but not the other. Both are beliefs that cannot be substantiated by conventional or empirical means.

To find it acceptable for others to believe in God but then find it unacceptable when they act on this belief seems rather silly to me.
 
starfighter
 
Reply Thu 14 Jan, 2010 09:09 am
@josh0335,
The original post is asking, "If the world had no religion would it be a better place." Whether or not someone is islam, or christian makes no difference. If we look back Buddhism did the same thing. It didn't lay out a set of laws like islam or judeo-christian religions did, but it gave primitive people a moral compass. What anyone believes in is secondary to the argument that the world needs religion. Its a part of our humanity. I'm not saying the world needs to worship God the same way I do, or even that you need to believe the same way I do.

I keep hearing the argument that religion has caused wars and discrimination. Men caused these wars and discrimination. They used religion as a tool. If there were no religion you think these same men would have all been Gandhi or MLK? There has been just as much if not more suffering in the world over a dollar as there has been religion.
 
xris
 
Reply Thu 14 Jan, 2010 09:23 am
@starfighter,
starfighter;119932 wrote:
The original post is asking, "If the world had no religion would it be a better place." Whether or not someone is islam, or christian makes no difference. If we look back Buddhism did the same thing. It didn't lay out a set of laws like islam or judeo-christian religions did, but it gave primitive people a moral compass. What anyone believes in is secondary to the argument that the world needs religion. Its a part of our humanity. I'm not saying the world needs to worship God the same way I do, or even that you need to believe the same way I do.

I keep hearing the argument that religion has caused wars and discrimination. Men caused these wars and discrimination. They used religion as a tool. If there were no religion you think these same men would have all been Gandhi or MLK? There has been just as much if not more suffering in the world over a dollar as there has been religion.
Dogmatic religions cause the problem, that's why Buddhism has such a good record. It is never dogmatic with its demands on its followers.
 
Hi My Name Is
 
Reply Thu 14 Jan, 2010 09:31 am
@TickTockMan,
TickTockMan;119208 wrote:
I'm wondering, when someone says, "the world would be a better place without religion," who are they saying it would be better for? (or to be grammatically correct, for whom are they saying it would be better?)

he has a good point...
 
xris
 
Reply Thu 14 Jan, 2010 09:40 am
@Hi My Name Is,
Hi! My Name Is:;119946 wrote:
he has a good point...
It would be better if it was not sold as a certainty and did not invade our lives to the degree it does.
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Thu 14 Jan, 2010 09:43 am
@xris,
xris;119949 wrote:
It would be better if it was not sold as a certainty and did not invade our lives to the degree it does.


Agree with that. So, the problem isn't that religion exists, it's that those who are religious can't shut up about it?!

"Commandment #11: Keep thy religion to thyself!"

- George Carlin
 
Justin
 
Reply Thu 14 Jan, 2010 10:02 am
@Hi My Name Is,
If I may, I think everyone should take the time to gain and understanding and knowledge of the original formation of religion. The apostolic writings and methods to transferring through scribes the letters and writings. Along with that, the origins of religion.

Anyone who understands why religions were formed would also understand the argument against religions. It's so simple. Blind leading the blind. Writings which looked to be written by a certain person or a certain individuals name on them or even writings that looked as though they could see into the future and prophetic about it were really just written about the past up until the point where the writer died.

Most of everything revolving around religion revolves around fighting. Heck, Christians were the worst ones, fighting about the doctrine of their own religions until they came up with something tasteful.

For example, the Trinity. This was post bible. It wasn't scripture and it wasn't truth, it was something they came up with to explain why Christians were worshiping a holy spirit. The trinity itself is NOT in the bible. There's no such thing yet we fail ourselves believing in what other men wrote. Not even that, many of the scribes that transferred these writings were slaves.

So, IMHO, anyone who is devout to their religion without at least a general understanding of the history and formation of religion is shooting in the dark, because once we understand the history of it, it's then and only then that we can begin to see clearly why there are so many religions and how it gave us a device to judge with. A sword to judge with.

No matter what religion it is, there's a history to it. You can take and read the letters written that were argued about and fought about back in the days... read them as scripture or understand them as a part of history and understand the history of them.

Religion is hogwash. Any educated person who understands and has a clear and concise knowledge of the history of religion would agree. This is why Scientists and scholars don't usually subscribe to any religion. They actually have 'thought' about it and taken the time to educate themselves on the history of it and the events that were happening during the time the religions were formed.

If you don't know or understand the history of religion, have know knowing of the Roman Empire and the political happenings of the time in history that brought us through today and the GODs that were created by man to worship throughout the centuries, then it's suggested that we take the time to learn about these things.

If I went around from Church to Church in the US asking if the Holy Trinity was in the bible, most, if not 99% of these people would say yes it is. They don't even know what's written in their own scriptures let alone use the device to judge another.

It's a vicious cycle. Blind leading the blind. Dumb leading the dumber. Funny thing is, faith, as silly as it may seem, prevents people from discovering the history and just gives them a device to judge others based on their faith. Not only judge others but judge heaven and hell and all that other hogwash.

Religion is very confusing. All religions have a history and in that history is shown that men wrote these words we so blindly believe in. If you believe in your religion based on faith, then that's up to you. However, if you are ever willing to step up and actually learn about why you believe in your faith, you'll discover truth and in truth there is no room for religion or faith.
 
 

 
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