Your tenacity is admirable. I give you that. You have to truly look at the overall mosaic that is transhumanism as it completely ignores what it is to be human. We have a long way to go in that department yet. We just can't "scientifically sidestep" it. IMO, we are on the threshold of technology that needs a sign on the door that says in big red letters: "DO NOT ENTER"

In our efforts to "extend life" (greed), we lose the quality it offers. Now you can chalk that down as a TRUTH, and never forget it.

Yes, those who are the willing, "and those who are duped", offering themselves in this technology is indeed understandable.

Yeah, I guess that (formerly) blind woman I referenced earlier in this thread was "duped" into getting retinal implants that make it possible for her to walk in a park again. Shame on those scheming scientific swindlers for restoring her eyesight. How could they do this to people in good conscience?

As for the above added "scarcasms", sorry; couldn't resist.) :surrender:You dish it out rather well, so I am sure you can take it, Huh? No offense.

William

If I thought your vision of the future had even a remote chance of becoming reality I might be worried... :rolleyes:

Oden,

Have you ever looked at the hideous results of plastic surgery? The pain and injuries caused by breast implants? The results of Lasik surgeries gone haywire? I remind you of the doctor's oath"

"I consider for the benefit of my patient and abstain from whatever is harmful or mischievous."

And yet we have plastic surgeons carving up people in all manner in order to make them fit some concept of beautiful. A profession gone haywire.

Rich

1. That brain-modifying is the only reliable way to end "the evils of the world". I suppose some sort of "Perfect computer overlord" rulling the earth with iron fist would have a similar effect, brainwashing everone since birth do be "good".

2. That that all the "evils of the world" can actually be terminated. We may modify ourselves to be less greedy and more generous, for example, but we cannot eliminate the "negative side" completly because its one of the fundamental building blocks of the mind, it would be the same than killing yourselves. Aka: such beings wouldnt be human as we know humans, and thus we wouldnt want to be like then. We can improve, but we will always have imperfections and desire more improvement. I suppose thats how things should be, we wont inflict ultimate boredoom upon ourselves, will we?

If it is arrogant to claim we know better than "mother nature", isnt it also arrogant to claim that we know what it wants, on the first place? =)

Personally I am, or rather, utter confused. In a few years (or maybe many) people will start getting robotically or genetically modified, and then... well, all hell will break loose: People made of nanobots clonning thenselves wildly and stuff.

Im hoping to live long enough to get my mind transfered into a computer. I wanna see human civilization and/or the universe fall apart with my own eyes. If I die before that im putting some mental effort into coming back as a ghost, to be on the safe side

Oden,

Your tenacity is admirable. I give you that. You have to truly look at the overall mosaic that is transhumanism as it completely ignores what it is to be human. We have a long way to go in that department yet. We just can't "scientifically sidestep" it. IMO, we are on the threshold of technology that needs a sign on the door that says in big red letters: "DO NOT ENTER"

Your valiant effort to defend what you believe in is one thing, but you must take in the entire scope of what those who fund this science are trying to accomplish; "Quantity of life" in the guise of "Quality of life". A most selfish notion at best. It goes without saying science has produce some very needed answers; I am not denying that and it is those accomplishments that are the foundation of your entire argument not for a moment considering the profound repercussions that could arise from this technology. Granted at sometime in the future there will be a time in which it might be useful, but that remains to be seen. Presently in this reality, it would be IMO, disasterious.

I mentioned "scare tactics" before. Those optical orbs are not so easily blinded by those wool facades like they once were. People for the first time are communicating. Yippee! When we speak of medical miracles, there is nothing like the brain. I live with a paraplegic who lost both his legs, but his brain adjusted in that he has a more affective use of his other two limbs. Just as a person who has lost their arms have an exceptional ability with their feet and legs. Nature takinig it's course. just like the prodigious savant that has less congnitive ability but their other abilities defy science and that understanding. Brain in action. Our penality is trying to, as it relates to our individual perception, fit their shoes and there is no way anyone can do that unless one as literally walk in those shoes. Can you hear me!

The brain has a job to do and it does it remarkably well with out the interference we impose on it such a fear, worry, stress not to speak of all the drugs we are taking legally and illegally to cope with this reality. There are no quick fixes, yet science in it's autonomy seems obligated to find a "fix" denying it's culpability though understandable in it's effort to keep us alive and to some degree, it is justifiable. I have more than once commented that the rewards of genius invariably fall into the wrong hands which forces us to investigate those hands that are funding this technology of which I mentioned in an earlier post you "saliently" ignored. I am not even sure if "salient" is appropriately used here, but it sounded good. Ha.

In our efforts to "extend life" (greed), we lose the quality it offers. Now you can chalk that down as a TRUTH, and never forget it. Never judge what you perceive to be that of another and by all means never force what you perceive on another, though you are permitted to do so if they are unprovoked and ask for it, and only then.

PS, in closing for the evening let me offer, IMO, an amazing collaboration of visual and auditory talents of those minds who I am sure will not wish to be altered.

Oden,

Have you ever looked at the hideous results of plastic surgery? The pain and injuries caused by breast implants? The results of Lasik surgeries gone haywire? I remind you of the doctor's oath"

"I consider for the benefit of my patient and abstain from whatever is harmful or mischievous."

And yet we have plastic surgeons carving up people in all manner in order to make them fit some concept of beautiful. A profession gone haywire.

Rich

There will always be shortcomings of some kind, but it's kind of silly to throw your hands up and say "Nothing can be done."

Nanotechnology could pose an awful existential threat. That's why I hope its development will be a little bit slower. No guarantees though.

On the other hand, if nanobots could form a civilization we would call meaningful somehow, they might not be such a bad thing: after all we are made up of cells, which are essentially biological nanobots, but still we might go out with a terrific bang if such a nanobot revolt happened.

I think I would (maybe) actually want to die at some point. After the first few hundreds of thousands of years, things might get a little tedious.

Both parties want that, as far as I know. I agree its stupid, but I prefer to blame human nature rather than science. People have always done crazy things for "beauty". I know in the past women in some countries would avoid the sun as much as possible because white was considered beautiful.

The problem here is the pedestal the the medical profession wants to put themselves on, when they are nothing more than money grubbers. What ever happened to the oath that physicians take?:

I WILL FOLLOW that method of treatment which according to my ability and judgment, I consider for the benefit of my patient and abstain from whatever is harmful or mischievous.

ABSTAIN FROM WHATEVER IS HARMFUL. (as long as it doesn't get in the way of making some money. :whistling:).

Rich

Last, and I hate to pull a tu quoque, but you're sorely mistaken if you think alternative medicine isn't full of outright fraudsters. (Also it usually doesn't work anywhere near as well as mainstream i.e. scientific medicine.)

Well, I have no idea what disease that kid has in the first place but can assume safely it's in the brain. What the summary of that paper is about it how nanotechnology, biology, cognitive science and information science are coming together in ways that are making it possible (not will, are) to transcend the limitations of our biology.

So eventually it will be possible to fix learning disabilities like his.

Also science doesn't prove anything, js



"I can't really explain" has been shown throughout history to be a really unproductive attitude.

In particular assuming there is some kind of "magic" that prevents things from being understood has always fallen flat.



It's a PDF, can you open PDFs? Try again.

• s.
  

If alternative medicine harmed or killed even a fraction of the number of people that allopathic medicine does, alternative medicine would be totally outlawed and practitioners drummed out of business - or worse.

In Hospital Deaths from Medical Errors at 195,000 per Year USA

"An average of 195,000 people in the USA died due to potentially preventable, in-hospital medical errors in each of the years 2000, 2001 and 2002, according to a new study of 37 million patient records that was released today by HealthGrades, the healthcare quality company."

Two NIH Studies and Concerns on Silicone/Saline Implants

"Women who have breast implants are more likely to die from brain tumors, lung cancer, other respiratory diseases, and suicide compared to other plastic surgery patients, according to a comprehensive new study. Women with implants are also more likely to develop cancer compared to other women their age, according to a second study."

BTW, what about the oath?

Rich

Im sure the science can do that some day but you still haven't explained how this applies to the theory getting the negative out of the positve, so far you've managed to protest against it but not actually disprove anything so Im sorry but are you going to?

Ok fair enough Od, but what if you have no choice but to suffer, you may aswell get the positve out of the negative. Im sorry but some people may maek an effort to change the situation but they've already suffered so they may aswell get the positive out of it even after making an effort to seek an alternative, they've already suffered so they may aswell have learned something from it or it would be an all negative experience which isn't good,, I think 'well what did I learn from this.'

---------- Post added 07-16-2009 at 02:03 AM ----------

One last thing, i dont think the family had much of an alternative but to turn it into a good thing, science or no science.

inadvertently posted this on another thread, mistake brought to my attention by oden. thank you, oden

oden, i suggest in order to prove your point you yourself be the first person to opt for this corrective surgery because you have some real problems in your brain. i wont bother listing them for you because by their very nature you wouldnt be able to see them, but i assure you everyone around you and anyone who has heard you speak will come to the same conclusion. you can try to upset and shock and scare whoever you want, but sooner or later they will realize your agenda and recognize your face. there is one more category you failed to mention: subhuman.

Ok, well, that's a different debate altogether. I've had a lot of deeply negative things happen to me and I guess I learned from them in some sense but I'd really rather they had never happened at all.

I don't really "look for the bright side" in anything. That may be an effective coping strategy but I think it's also a bias.

Yes me too but it's made me the person i am today and i think i have gained more insight too, i wouldn't be the insightful person i am and im still standing, so it's improved my life, i guess you could call it a coping mechanism because we would be depressed about these bad things that happen to us but i would also say that i've taken away solid learning from the experience too, proof that you can get the positive out of the negative. Weighing up the pros and cons:- im still standing and i learnt something, wonderful!
Bias? What do you mean?

oden, i find it funny that you dont object to my saying you have problems in your brain while you are worried about being thought of as subhuman!

could it be that under that cynical exterior is the heart of a hero?

You might forget that tragedy is real and assign some kind of teleology to awful events, i.e., "This was meant to happen", "It was for the best" ... I find these kinds of ideas counterproductive, even if they are comforting. In my professional career I intend to work with like-minded colleagues on alleviating the many tragedies of our existence, and, in order to do that, I need to recognize them full on.

Whenever I think of a great day, Wednesday is not the first one that comes to mind

In fact, Wednesday's almost as bad as Monday

Saying that imaginary gods gave us the weekdays is as silly as saying that we owe two whole months to Julius Caesar and Augustus. July and August existed well before those guys.

Also: stop derailing my thread with trivia about dead religions, I'm already familiar with them. I am "Odens krigare" after all...