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Shostakovich phil
 
Reply Sat 31 Oct, 2009 01:15 pm
@EmperorNero,
EmperorNero;100825 wrote:
Global warming opponents are not driven by big oil, if you think that, there are just as many corporations who would benefit from the legislation than there are those who wish to stop it. And the government is highly interested in the cap and trade revenue. And a question I have recently been asking myself is what do the politicians care about saving the world.


While I believe global warming is being caused by overpopulation and that it began in earnest with the industrial revolution, I have to applaud this observation. The last few presidents of the States were ample proof of the power that big money and big corporate connections have to put even an Idiot in the Whitehouse. How else did Clinton and Bush get in? It certainly wasn't because they exhibited an unusually high degree of intellect.

Quote:
Are they not self-serving, short-term opportunists? So why do they care about saving the climate. And shouldn't they know their impact can't make a difference.


They're too stupid to know they can't make a difference. No one can.

Quote:
And should it really be the governments task to protect us from controversial and debated hypothetical problems by taxing us and limiting our freedoms?


I think what you mean to say is that it should be the governments task to protect us against unfair taxation and any limitation of our freedoms. And I agree, it should be. But this is a hopeless Ideal, and it isn't how any government works that I know of. Governments exist to feed themselves and all the petty beurocrats put into government offices ... they're collectively like a bunch of vampires, and they subsist by sucking the blood out of the masses, until there is no blood left to suck on. So naturally, they use global warming as a means to level more laws, more regulations, more taxes, more penalties, and use all the endless scientific studies and fear mongering to control the masses ... so they can force them into a corner from which there is no escape ... and to what end? So they can suck more blood out of them.

Gobal warming I think however, is a reality; whatever its cause, natural or man made ... maybe it's both ... but there is nothing I can do about it, and to think one can do anything is (to take a line out of a private eye novel that I'm working on) like trying to stop an avalanche by pissing in the snow.
 
xris
 
Reply Sat 31 Oct, 2009 01:49 pm
@Shostakovich phil,
If you think your a eunuch you are one. We can do something large or small, depending on your motivation. I simple drive a small car , have low energy light bulbs etc. I dont think its insignificant, if I can reduce my footprint by any small measure and everyone has that mindset, it will make a difference. Americans are the main contributors to the problem and its your attitude that fuels that problem.

There are big problems but if the individual does not make his voice heard governments will never change their attitude.
 
Shostakovich phil
 
Reply Sat 31 Oct, 2009 09:05 pm
@xris,
xris;100873 wrote:
If you think your a eunuch you are one. We can do something large or small, depending on your motivation. I simple drive a small car , have low energy light bulbs etc. I dont think its insignificant, if I can reduce my footprint by any small measure and everyone has that mindset, it will make a difference. Americans are the main contributors to the problem and its your attitude that fuels that problem."


That's just the key ... for everyone to have that same mindset is not possible because there are enormous profits being made by corporations geered towards ripping off our planet. The pissing in the snow analogy is appropriate.

Quote:

There are big problems but if the individual does not make his voice heard governments will never change their attitude.


Governments seldom listen to the people. If they do, it's just to pull the wool over their eyes on election day ... then all the promises turn to dust.
 
EmperorNero
 
Reply Sun 1 Nov, 2009 12:10 am
@xris,
xris;100853 wrote:
Im sorry that opinions like yours exist,you see the few motivated sceptics as a reason to not believe that the consensus of scientific knowledge is telling us its definitely rising. You are in a very small minority even most of those you speak of have admitted its rising but dont blame human activity. The north west passage is open and the icebergs are dissolving faster than any time in recorded history. How you can deny the obvious truth, its beyond my comprehension. I dont think any evidence would convince you , you have made a conscious decision that its all propaganda.


I'm sorry to say, that I feel you are resorting to generalizations and catch phrases. I brought up some actual science, xris. I at least hoped you would try to debate it.
I regard consensus science as an extremely pernicious development that ought to be stopped cold in its tracks. Historically, the claim of consensus has been the first refuge of scoundrels. It is a way to avoid debate by claiming that the matter is already settled.
Wouldn't you agree that Copernicus, Galileo and Einstein each were in a minority? The work of science has nothing to do with consensus. Consensus is the business of politics.
And who are you to say you are sorry my opinion exists. There was a time when we didn't want to to silence the opposition.

xris;100873 wrote:
Americans are the main contributors to the problem and its your attitude that fuels that problem.


No, we're not, China is the main contributor.
None of the European countries have actually been anywhere close to meeting their Kyoto goals, in fact they are emitting more CO2 at sinking populations.
Our attitude is merely being honest enough to not pretend (something for which I do admire George W. Bush).
 
xris
 
Reply Sun 1 Nov, 2009 10:02 am
@EmperorNero,
Per head of population Americans are three times worse than china. I have given you examples of where there is no cities given false temperature readings. The arctic is the prime example. They have drilled down into ice cores, representing thousands of years back to the last ice age and there has never ever been temperature rises at the speed they are increasing at this present time. The global sea temperatures are rising year on year and for you to be so blinkered to the facts is bizarre to say the least.

We can make a difference , if its brought to the attention of everyone, it will filter through. The main obstacle are views held by the likes of you. If corporate interest gets effected then the little guy will suffer even more by global warming. Revolution brother, thats whats required.:sarcastic:
 
Shostakovich phil
 
Reply Sun 1 Nov, 2009 01:28 pm
@xris,
xris;101004 wrote:
Per head of population Americans are three times worse than china.


I have heard of a recent study that shows that Canada, per capita, is actually more of a contributor to global warming than the United States. I could be wrong, but if it's not worse than the States it must be running a close second.

And by the way: I manage two apartment buildings, and I've been replacing all the old light bulbs throughout with energy efficient light bulbs; and I drive a Toyota Corolla. The Ford Windstar (a gas guzzler) is parked with no insurance; until I have a good reason to use it. So in general, I agree with both your view and your efforts; and I concur with the scientific concensus. David Suzuki, a biology professor at UBC, has said he can't understand why there are opponents to the news that human activity is largely responsible for global warming ... the evidence is out there and it has been studied by top scientists who know what they are doing.

My skepticism is all directed at humanities efforts to stem global warming, because, unfortunately, we've been born into a capitalistic (or otherwise) economic system wherein the Almighty Dollar is God. And unscrupulous politicians and the CEO's of multinational corporations appear to be using the 'go-green philosophy' to further their own agendas ... which are driven by just about anything other than a will or a desire to save the planet. And then there are those big corporations who hire their own scientists to contradict all the scientific studies that support global warming, so there is no wonder that there are conflicting studies on the subject.

I watched a PBS documentary of a tribe of people in South America; who saw the gradual decline of rainwater, and the drying up of their crops; and they blamed this on human activity (that they knew conflicted with their own belief system). At the end of the documentary they retreated to a mountain top where there was still an abundance of water to grow their crops, and they ended by saying they would not descend from the mountain top, and they sent out a warning to humanity that if they continued on their present course, they would not even be safe on the top of their mountain. They feared we would all perish unless we changed our ways.

I rather like these proofs of global warming over the countless scientific studies on the matter.
 
EmperorNero
 
Reply Sun 1 Nov, 2009 01:41 pm
@Shostakovich phil,
Shostakovich;100859 wrote:
While I believe global warming is being caused by overpopulation and that it began in earnest with the industrial revolution, I have to applaud this observation. The last few presidents of the States were ample proof of the power that big money and big corporate connections have to put even an Idiot in the Whitehouse. How else did Clinton and Bush get in? It certainly wasn't because they exhibited an unusually high degree of intellect.


They're too stupid to know they can't make a difference. No one can.


Well, if you are thinking that global warming started before the industrial revolution, you can't be referring to anthropogenic global warming. What do you think that's supposed to warm the planet.

Population control is the single worst thing humanity can resort to at this time. It's only purpose it to stifle progress so the establishment can stay in power.

Shostakovich;100859 wrote:
I think what you mean to say is that it should be the governments task to protect us against unfair taxation and any limitation of our freedoms. And I agree, it should be. But this is a hopeless Ideal, and it isn't how any government works that I know of. Governments exist to feed themselves and all the petty beurocrats put into government offices ... they're collectively like a bunch of vampires, and they subsist by sucking the blood out of the masses, until there is no blood left to suck on. So naturally, they use global warming as a means to level more laws, more regulations, more taxes, more penalties, and use all the endless scientific studies and fear mongering to control the masses ... so they can force them into a corner from which there is no escape ... and to what end? So they can suck more blood out of them.


Exactly.

Shostakovich;100859 wrote:
Gobal warming I think however, is a reality; whatever its cause, natural or man made ... maybe it's both ... but there is nothing I can do about it, and to think one can do anything is (to take a line out of a private eye novel that I'm working on) like trying to stop an avalanche by pissing in the snow.


Good you are saying man made or not, leaving open the possibility global warming being caused y the sun. But this isn't even the case. The earth is getting colder at a rate that we would be in an ice age if it continued for another two decades.
Warming is the greatest thing for civilization, see this thread: http://www.philosophyforum.com/lounge/general-discussion/2267-low-point-civilization.html
That's why all the alarmists are switching to the term 'climate change' now. Apparently not admitting that global warming is wrong, just that it is sort off different.

And there is nothing we can do about it.

---------- Post added 11-01-2009 at 08:43 PM ----------

Shostakovich;101051 wrote:
I've been replacing all the old light bulbs throughout with energy efficient light bulbs; and I drive a Toyota Corolla. The Ford Windstar (a gas guzzler) is parked with no insurance;


Since 30% of a cars harm to the environment happen when it is built, the best thing we can do for the environment is driving old cars as long as possible and not buying new ones.
Same with the light bulbs, the most they do is make us feel good. And then they're super poisonous.

---------- Post added 11-01-2009 at 08:46 PM ----------

Shostakovich;101051 wrote:
I concur with the scientific concensus. David Suzuki, a biology professor at UBC, has said he can't understand why there are opponents to the news that human activity is largely responsible for global warming ... the evidence is out there and it has been studied by top scientists who know what they are doing.


A majority of scientists once were for eugenics; saving the human race from weak species.
Consensus is unscientific.
 
xris
 
Reply Sun 1 Nov, 2009 01:49 pm
@EmperorNero,
I sometimes believe your on another planet to me..Where in the hell do you get your information from and what has socialists principles got to do with it? You make these vague claims and ignore my questions about the arctic..

The point of buying a new car is not dump yours because its a guzzler but when you have to buy, buy small and one that does less harm..the same goes for light bulbs, wot are you on? Its the same stupid mind set..
 
EmperorNero
 
Reply Sun 1 Nov, 2009 02:03 pm
@xris,
xris;101059 wrote:
I sometimes believe your on another planet to me..Where in the hell do you get your information from and what has socialists principles got to do with it? You make these vague claims and ignore my questions about the arctic..


But even your global warming leaders no longer call it global warming. they call it 'climate change' because they can't possibly claim any more that there is warming when there actually is cooling, regardless of what caused it.
Now they are basically saying that the weather is being 'extreme'. You know, first they said global cooling then global warming now climate change. But it's a consensus so it must be right. :sarcastic:
The arctic is fine, it's freezing.

the funny thing is that there is no example of government saving us from some global environmental doomsday scheme, if there even is a example of government saving us from anything at all. But there is a long list of fake global environmental doomsday schemes. How can you possibly think it is different this time?

Earth Day predictions of 1970
 
xris
 
Reply Sun 1 Nov, 2009 02:22 pm
@EmperorNero,
Is that supposed to be an intelligent remark the arctic is freezing?

Governments are tied to good news and telling us ,we have to cut back is bad politics. Who would vote for a government that recommended zero growth?

The world despite the sun having a quite time is still getting hotter. It only takes 2 degs.c. world wide and it will go beyond our control.Do you think you have enough information to relieve me of this worry? if so lets hear it.

You know darned well that heating can draw colder air into certain regions, its part of the global weather pattern. It also produces droughts and excessive rainfall, ask the weather men.
 
EmperorNero
 
Reply Sun 1 Nov, 2009 04:47 pm
@xris,
xris;101069 wrote:
Do you think you have enough information to relieve me of this worry? if so lets hear it.


If you want something to occupy your mind, there is nothing I can do about it. Facts rarely change someones mind. We always believe what we want to believe because of the way it makes us feel. What we know isn't that important.

I think I have brought up a few very relevant points. From the inaccuracy of the measuring data itself to how it is presented by people how benefit from you believing it, to what the supposed effects are. No part of the global warming story seems to really fit.
I be happy to answer any question you have. But you can find these things on the internet easily.

I personally believe this has to do with the demise of religion in the west; that we seek some alternative. And you have to admit that the general theme of global warming / climate change is pretty similar to a religion: We have sinned, and thereby brought upon the apocalypse. We have to behave according to a set of higher standards to prevent this punishment.
 
Shostakovich phil
 
Reply Sun 1 Nov, 2009 05:48 pm
@xris,
xris;101069 wrote:

You know darned well that heating can draw colder air into certain regions, its part of the global weather pattern. It also produces droughts and excessive rainfall, ask the weather men.


And from what I can tell over 30 years of watching the weather newscasts, the reports of disastrous weather conditions (flooding, freezing, droughts, tornadoes, hurricanes) are getting worse, not better. So from even my personal experience I have to say, things are indeed worsening as far as the weather is concerned.

If you tell this to the skeptics however, they won't believe it even if a tornado knocks on their door.
 
EmperorNero
 
Reply Sun 1 Nov, 2009 11:26 pm
@Shostakovich phil,
Shostakovich;101117 wrote:
And from what I can tell over 30 years of watching the weather newscasts, the reports of disastrous weather conditions (flooding, freezing, droughts, tornadoes, hurricanes) are getting worse, not better. So from even my personal experience I have to say, things are indeed worsening as far as the weather is concerned.


That's because your memory is selective. And you watch the media. We only remember and report the extreme stuff. Studies found no such thing happening. The weather was as extreme as it is now in the medieval ages and at the birth of Christ.
The weather isn't getting more extreme. That's just a way of keeping global warming alive despite being utterly discredited.
It's almost funny to have to point out the fallacies of such a silly theory. It's like I'm saying: No, the world is in fact not flat, you can sail around it. Just see.
Has any of those people ever admitted that they were wrong about the earth getting warmer and that 'extreme' weather is the new scare? How come they can just switch and nobody in their constituency flinches an eye?
"It's sort'a, you know, something's happening because oil consumption is evil. We don't know what, but be very afraid. Whatever the weather is, that's proof of our theory, yes."
They had a 50-50 chance of claiming the right thing when claiming what the weather would have to do to prove their scare. And they gambled wrong. Again. (You would want the scientific consensus to be worth more than a coin.) Now they just gamble on all possible outcomes, leaving no possibility of being wrong.
Extreme weather can't really be disproved. It's unfalsifiable - one of the main attributes of a religion.
It's getting warmer "ha!", it's getting colder "ha!", there are hurricanes "ha!". Hurricanes now prove there's global warming. And that despite it being quite a boring hurricane season compared to a few years ago. But hey, isn't it the lack of hurricanes extreme weather? I can't take it any more, no hurricanes, the government has to do something about it. And when a potent hurricane season starts, it's proof of extreme weather again. Yet no believer in global warming wants to do any real sacrifice in their own lives. That to me is the best singn that they don't really believe it themselves.
 
Shostakovich phil
 
Reply Mon 2 Nov, 2009 01:32 am
@EmperorNero,
EmperorNero;101170 wrote:
It's getting warmer "ha!", it's getting colder "ha!", there are hurricanes "ha!". Hurricanes now prove there's global warming. And that despite it being quite a boring hurricane season compared to a few years ago. But hey, isn't it the lack of hurricanes extreme weather? I can't take it any more, no hurricanes, the government has to do something about it. And when a potent hurricane season starts, it's proof of extreme weather again. Yet no believer in global warming wants to do any real sacrifice in their own lives. That to me is the best singn that they don't really believe it themselves.


This topic as we can see can cause some endless back and forth with no progress forseeable on either front. Hitler would have had an easier time invading Leningrad and defeating Stalin than we pro-global-warming-alarmists would have overturning your position. So I'm going back home to retire in peace, with my tanks, before they're destroyed.

I guess you could say if we were playing football, I'm the rotten little kid who would pick up the ball and say: "It's my ball and I'm not going to let you play with it anymore."
 
EmperorNero
 
Reply Mon 2 Nov, 2009 02:16 am
@Shostakovich phil,
Shostakovich;101183 wrote:
This topic as we can see can cause some endless back and forth with no progress forseeable on either front. Hitler would have had an easier time invading Leningrad and defeating Stalin than we pro-global-warming-alarmists would have overturning your position. So I'm going back home to retire in peace, with my tanks, before they're destroyed.

I guess you could say if we were playing football, I'm the rotten little kid who would pick up the ball and say: "It's my ball and I'm not going to let you play with it anymore."


And yet it's you who brings up the first nazi comparison. :sarcastic:

Just bring something up that you want to debate.
 
xris
 
Reply Mon 2 Nov, 2009 04:19 am
@EmperorNero,
EmperorNero;101187 wrote:
And yet it's you who brings up the first nazi comparison. :sarcastic:

Just bring something up that you want to debate.
Do you recall your reference to it being a socialist inspired mirage?:perplexed: Sorry but your pitiful defence of your stated views is only rhetoric and holds no facts to be examined.
 
EmperorNero
 
Reply Mon 2 Nov, 2009 04:30 am
@EmperorNero,
Well, you're the one with a theory who has the burden of proof, so let's hear it.
 
xris
 
Reply Mon 2 Nov, 2009 04:37 am
@EmperorNero,
EmperorNero;101201 wrote:
Well, you're the one with a theory who has the burden of proof, so let's hear it.
You ignore everything i give you as proof, or make a joke of it. The arctic......
 
EmperorNero
 
Reply Mon 2 Nov, 2009 04:42 am
@xris,
xris;101203 wrote:
You ignore everything i give you as proof, or make a joke of it. The arctic......


You must have misunderstood me. It was a news story a while ago. Glaciers are actually building up ice, they are freezing. And temperatures have been going down. You must be aware that none of the climate change people even try to claim that the earth is getting warmer any more. That's why they call it climate change now. Which would also be bad. But let's start at the beginning. Do you agree that - man made or not - the earth is getting colder, not warmer, for the last decade?
 
xris
 
Reply Mon 2 Nov, 2009 04:51 am
@EmperorNero,
EmperorNero;101204 wrote:
You must have misunderstood me. It was a news story a while ago. Glaciers are actually building up ice, they are freezing. You must be aware that none of the climate change people even try to claim that the earth is getting warmer any more. That's why they call it climate change now. Which would also be bad. But let's start at the beginning. Do you agree that - man made or not - the earth is getting colder, not warmer for the last decades?
Sorry but your wrong again.They still call it global warming, a few refer to it as climate change but that is only because global warming is causing climate change. A few areas are getting colder due to these climate changes but the sea, the air is globally getting warmer. For you to deny the accepted and fully agreed facts is , to put it mildly, nutty.Global warming, photography, pictures, photos, climate change, impact, science, weather, arctic, antarctica, climate zones, glacier, arctic warming, antarctica warming, documentation, effects, effects of climate change, paleoclimate, mountain glacier
 
 

 
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