I can assume it for the sake of the argument. We would get hung up on that point, it would be a google competition.
I don't believe it. I'm saying, yes, I assume there is warming for the sake of the argument.
How do you know it's man made? How do you know it's because of carbon output? Why do you think making energy more expensive in the US and Europe will make any difference?

How is it you have no idea about the significance carbon emissions ? I assume if you pay more for something you treat it with more respect.

You are the one who adheres to a theory about the danger of carbon emissions. I am a skeptic. I like you to explain.

Fricking Earth Day Again:



Which part of that environment are you talking about, if you don't mind my asking?



Nothing? Is there such a thing? We have spent billions upon billions trying to find "nothing"; and all we find. is more.



Perhaps they are not so meaningless, my friend: but an attempt to find how we fit in all that is the Earth and if we are using those resources she is providing us.........wisely?




How could we never do anything? Costs perhaps? I think we could do so much more, it this little cost monster didn't rear it's ugly head. Are we not made of what this earth provides? Of course, I think we are..........and then some.



Please, Nero, my friend, tell us what it is that you feel is valuable?



Yes,..............it is; but not all feel that way. Would you not agree? And yes there is a profit to be made from it, also. That's the rub, huh?



Now, just how do we do that, exactly? We are going to be dead in a few years anyway; what does in matter? I think that is how many think and that is much of the problem. Who "fricking" cares, huh?

Are we not part of the "global thing"? Are we not temperate also? We have temperate zones just as the earth does. Those imaginary lines that we have drawn on the Earth fluctuate just as we do illustrated by our tempers. Is it not reasonable to assume we have a part to offer in that and play a part in that. I say yes, we do. Is there something we can do about it; again, I say yes. The Earth WILL take care of itself, with or without us, and on that, whether you believe it or not, I think it will. It will make the necessary adjustments to insure it's continuum until.......................it will be no more and then something else will takes it's place.

We can't escape that or ignore it. We are here for the duration; however long that is, as I believe it is forever and am resolved with my thinking and am comfortable with it. Could it be better? I believe it can. How much better? That's what dreams are made of; you know, the good ones. Not the nightmares so many are plague with.

We are a part of this Earth and there is no way we can avoid that fact or we become null and void in the process as it will start over with us until we do eventually get it right. That is a paradigm we can notice in all we do. Life has it's truths and it's consequences and as long as we are separate and challenging in our thinking, it's difficult to imagine what those consequences might be.

It is all about balance; us with the Earth we call home, for now. It is a new sounding board we are meant to learn from to regain that balance only we represent. All else will maintain it's balance and we have a part in that. We can't deny it.

I have not read all the posts in this thread and please forgive me if I stepped on any toes and repeated something another said. Thanks:bigsmile:

Please consider what I have said.

Thank you,
Your friend,
William

You are nothing like a sceptic, your a scoffer, a scoffer of accepted scientific proof. You ignore all the proven data concerning the subject and search frantically through google for any snippets of derisive press clippings. There are a few like you who oppose the general accepted view but they, like you, hide behind silly rhetoric , with no scientific reality in their argument. You refuse constantly to answer the simplest of questions and then say , what question, over and over again. I would debate with you but any evidence from a reasoned source is denounced or ignored by you for no other reason than to prolong the agony and it is agony. Sorry friend but im done with this..

No hard feelings xris. I thought we could figure out at least something here. But if this is how it has to end...

Yes, maybe I'm just being "anti". Maybe I hold opinions so I can think of myself as different; as individualistic. And yes I am a scoffer of much of what's generally agreed upon.
But you know what - people like me figured out the earth is not in the center of the universe, they figured out that the earth is not flat.
When people like you were calling us a scoffer of "accepted scientific proof".

Edit: I appreciate all our debates. I wish you well.

---------- Post added 11-03-2009 at 10:00 PM ----------


Great quote.


Thank you my friend,
I'm not against balance or being careful with the resources we got.
I just don't think weather changes because we burn fossil fuels.

I will be leaving the forum. I wish you well.

It's important to keep in mind that there's a big difference between climate change, and the weather. Picking out articles on this year's unseasonably warm summer someplace, or on some very cold winter somewhere else, does nothing to support or refute global warming. The weather changes frequently, but climate change is a very gradual process. For an example, the latest 'ice age', during the Pleistocene epoch, has lasted for well over 2 million years. At the start of the epoch, modern humans did not exist, and by the end, we did. Yet, in geological and climate terms, it was just a moment in time, only a couple million out of the billions of years the planet has been around, where earth was marked by a specific type of climate, and regular glacial movements.

The scientific data certainly seems to show that climate change is occurring, and that this gradual warming is taking place. However, we can't be sure that it's "unnatural", as we know that the earth has gone through periods of warming and cooling, long before humans were making any significant contribution to carbon levels in the atmosphere. Anyway, humans are a part of nature, and if we are in fact causing the warming, it is still 'natural', though natural is not always a good thing.

What is known is that there is a direct correlation between carbon levels and warming, over time, but this is not a clearly discernible causal relationship where carbon emissions necessarily lead to warming. In fact, it can be the reverse, as when the earth warms up, this naturally leads to higher carbon levels in the atmosphere due to release from the oceans.

Global warming is happening, but it's still unclear whether or not humans are a significant cause behind it. No need to jump the gun, or make fallacious arguments where correlation is supposed to prove causation. However, most experts do agree that it is likely that our activity is making a significant impact, and it will only continue to get worse if nothing is done. The ecosystem can be thrown out of balance, and it's pretty clear that all of our emissions have already begun to do this, whether through warming, or other mechanisms, like simple pollution. It's something that is a concern.

I am concerned with protecting the earth, but I'm also wary of some of these causes that are simply pushed for the sake of making money and political outcomes. An extra carbon tax is just another way for big brother to stick his hand in our pockets and take the money we've earned...we already tax energy, and the people who consume more than their fair share end up paying for it. With cheap energy becoming more scarce, and demand for it always on the rise, prices will inevitably cause us to keep cutting back on consumption as they already have.

A general concern for the environment though, I do not think can be a bad thing. And it can also be helped by a self-interested concern, where people use less energy because they don't want to spend money. What Malthus wrote of the dangers of population growth might basically be true for the corresponding dangers of growth in consumption; there will inevitably be some type of check that comes into place in this type of system that is unsustainable. The main problem though is not population growth, but per capita growth in consumption, where people adopt increasingly exorbitant lifestyles that are, imo, unnecessary and vapid.

Individual lifestyles can be changed, and we can grow out of our current consumption-based culture, if enough people want to. Things like earth day might help, and they might not, but the real problem I think you should be addressing is just, in general, how positive social movements are spun in the media in order to serve businessmen and politicians. This is done with all sorts of issues, not just earth day.

I just traded in my pickup that got around 12mpg for a small european sports car that averages over 25mpg. This not only cuts my fuel costs in half, but also my car-related carbon emissions. It helps the environment, and it helps myself, so it's a great thing. If more people adopt this type of viewpoint, I don't see the harm.

Best wishes to you and all you do. It has been good to know you. I hope we are both the better for it. :a-ok:

Your friend,
William