Is there equality?

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Caroline
 
Reply Thu 26 Mar, 2009 01:25 am
@savagemonk,
Ok it could be said there's conflict of the positive kind which has no negative impact and conflict of the worse kind which can cause devastion, violent death and suffering the first one is ok the second one isnt, my rule is if you're not harming anyone else leave them be if you are then you are wrong, can you see where the two differnt kinds of conflict fall into-the positve and the negative they are not the same in that they have different affects and effects which is where you have to draw the line so to speak, they are only the same in that they consist of two opposites.
 
ddancom
 
Reply Thu 26 Mar, 2009 03:50 am
@savagemonk,
Quote:
ddancom, I get the feeling you are merely being devil's advocate. Inequality exists.


Irrespective, my point was that opportunity does not lead to equality.
 
Caroline
 
Reply Thu 26 Mar, 2009 06:13 am
@ddancom,
ddancom wrote:
Irrespective, my point was that opportunity does not lead to equality.

I agree with that in that opportunity does not necessarly lead to opportunities - does inequality lie in the lack of access to these opportunities?
 
doc phil
 
Reply Thu 26 Mar, 2009 07:28 am
@Caroline,
ddancom;55224 wrote:
Irrespective, my point was that opportunity does not lead to equality.


So you do actually consider that to be accurate. In my opinion, opportunity can lead to a loss of the co-operative sense, under-pinning civilisation. Much opportunity can bring the benefits of co-operation without the need to be co-operative. So yes, I consider opportunity can reduce the perpetuation of equal opportunity. But equality is not really a goal for most humanitarian organisations. Equity is. One can be saturated with opportunity, submersed in luxury, and the humane approach would not be to share such luxury, but to address the lack of basic provision based on need. Is equality an actual goal? I do not consider we each have equal contributions; I do not consider it sensible to share equally to a topic or situation and the end-point is the median. Some have more to contribute in certain situations than other. Perhaps the shared goal is to provide enough opportunity to enable each person to achieve expertise, that is, promote diversity.

But, my contention in "A Civilised Mind?", is that only when the base of civilisation - the basic provision to all in it - can opportunity be used for individuality's sake.
 
MJA
 
Reply Thu 26 Mar, 2009 10:06 am
@doc phil,
=
Equal is the absolute perfect true union of All.
True Oneness is this Way,


=
MJA
 
doc phil
 
Reply Thu 26 Mar, 2009 11:20 am
@MJA,
Equal or = is a common truth to all. It has very limited use or descriptive quality. For me it highlights the importance of actions; everything has an equals; everything has a consequence! What the consequence is or should be is not explained by equals. There is very limited guidance in equals. I think you should look further.
 
manored
 
Reply Thu 26 Mar, 2009 02:13 pm
@doc phil,
doc wrote:
Manored:
Learning is conflicting too. Conflict is not only about fighting against others, but against the forces of nature and the universe itself. Then you learn, you make an effort to learn, and therefore you conflict against your own incapacity to understand.

Is life just a struggle? Learning has to be an effort? Perhaps looking for perpetuation of one's own view can be troublesome.

I am not sure why caroline has to be in conflict if she chooses to be on this forum. I must have missed that rule.

Doc:Not-Impressed:
It depends of how you interpret the word "conflict"

Caroline wrote:
Ok it could be said there's conflict of the positive kind which has no negative impact and conflict of the worse kind which can cause devastion, violent death and suffering the first one is ok the second one isnt, my rule is if you're not harming anyone else leave them be if you are then you are wrong, can you see where the two differnt kinds of conflict fall into-the positve and the negative they are not the same in that they have different affects and effects which is where you have to draw the line so to speak, they are only the same in that they consist of two opposites.
I dont think its really that simple, anything we do can cause harm to someone, independently of whenever we want it or not. Then I buy food, I am reducing the stocks of one kind of food and therefore increasing its prices, maybe contribuiting for some people who can only buy that food to be unable to buy even that. Perhaps if I bought something else I would be contribuiting for the hunger of less people, or none at all...
 
doc phil
 
Reply Thu 26 Mar, 2009 03:37 pm
@manored,
The way it is, is not the way it has to be.
 
ddancom
 
Reply Thu 26 Mar, 2009 05:53 pm
@doc phil,
My view is this: for sustainable, non-momentary social equality to exist, there must a complete lack of conflict within society. Put simply, there must never be a loser in any social interaction.

Conflict breeds inequality; Hence, any entity which breeds conflict gives way to social inequality -- not equality.

It follows then that opportunity, which, by nature, causes social polarization, can have no place in a perfectly egalitarian society.

Because opportunity must exist within society, social equality cannot exist.
 
MJA
 
Reply Thu 26 Mar, 2009 09:23 pm
@doc phil,
doc wrote:
Equal or = is a common truth to all. It has very limited use or descriptive quality. For me it highlights the importance of actions; everything has an equals; everything has a consequence! What the consequence is or should be is not explained by equals. There is very limited guidance in equals. I think you should look further.


Equal is universally infinite, and One cannot look further than that.
Beyond truth is only more truth.
The equitable infinite truth of All.

=
MJA
 
ddancom
 
Reply Thu 26 Mar, 2009 10:11 pm
@MJA,
MJA wrote:
Equal is universally infinite, and One cannot look further than that.
Beyond truth is only more truth.
The equitable infinite truth of All.

=
MJA


Is equality not limited by the existence of concepts? Are concepts not derived from the physical?
 
Theaetetus
 
Reply Thu 26 Mar, 2009 10:49 pm
@savagemonk,
I would think that if all things were truly equal, the universe would be made of just hydrogen and a little helium. It seem that because things are not equal that complexity arises. Without complexity there would not be humans, without humans we would not have your concept of equality, MJA.
 
MJA
 
Reply Thu 26 Mar, 2009 11:13 pm
@ddancom,
ddancom wrote:
Is equality not limited by the existence of concepts? Are concepts not derived from the physical?


That's a fair question; let me see if I can help you understand the true infinite nature of equality.

Imagine a balance scale teetering on the infinite point or fulcrum of truth.
That point of balance is the point of equality, nature's harmony, justice, the scale's only single simple truth.
Why is the balance point the only truth of a scale? Because measure, no matter how careful we are, has no certainty. Heisenberg was but the tip of the uncertainty berg.
Why infinite you might ask? The point of nature's truth is measureless as any point truly is. Between any two points are an infinite amount of other points because a point on its own is immeasurably infinite.
Do you get it now; truth is more simple than thought.
Check out the truth of a scale, maybe you will see it too!

=
MJA

Oh, and the truth of a scale is the same truth of an equation.
God = One
 
ddancom
 
Reply Thu 26 Mar, 2009 11:39 pm
@MJA,
A balance that measures nothing is altogether useless. You neglect what must lie on each end of the scale -- that which must be compared: concepts.
 
Caroline
 
Reply Fri 27 Mar, 2009 12:25 am
@manored,
manored wrote:
It depends of how you interpret the word "conflict"

I dont think its really that simple, anything we do can cause harm to someone, independently of whenever we want it or not. Then I buy food, I am reducing the stocks of one kind of food and therefore increasing its prices, maybe contribuiting for some people who can only buy that food to be unable to buy even that. Perhaps if I bought something else I would be contribuiting for the hunger of less people, or none at all...

Ageeed, that would be the type of conflict that has a negative impact, even though you're not informed or are you? most of us are aware that when we buy products that unless it has fairtrade stamped on it you can gaurantee someone has suffered for it, whether it be blood diamonds, petrol, food or clothes made in a sweat-shop, (capitalism), can you honestly say that just because you dont know where your product comes from that you believe it to be of sound background what i mean is most products have some negative thing attatched to it in the name of comsumerism, it is another form of conflict that has a negative impact wether you know it for sure or not.
 
Caroline
 
Reply Fri 27 Mar, 2009 01:44 am
@savagemonk,
tell me manored if you had control over the means of production would you make it a conflict or would you seek fairtrade, myself i would fall into the latter unfortunately i dont get to make that decision unless i become a politicion or something, what can we do to veto this cruel way of production, im heading into marxism,who predicted man would come together and rise against and overcome governments however his theory fails in that man has become alienated and cannot come together, no doubt the government is grateful for that.
 
Joe
 
Reply Fri 27 Mar, 2009 02:06 am
@Caroline,
Lately Ive been wondering what are the contradictions of Action equality in our society?

So we meet someone and observe physical characteristics along with personality traits mixed with a bunch of sub-conscious judgments. How often is it uncomfortable to treat someone equally, when cultural and biological functions are most likely working against the idea of equality?

I would say more often then not. It might be as simple, and also deeply difficult at the same time, as un-programming what makes your surroundings work and interact. Its social acceptance that is an excuse. Its a very good one because it relies on herd mentality (biological) traits, thus slowing down what humans might be trying to evolve into. On a conscious level.

Just some thoughts.
 
Joe
 
Reply Fri 27 Mar, 2009 02:11 am
@MJA,
MJA wrote:
That's a fair question; let me see if I can help you understand the true infinite nature of equality.

Imagine a balance scale teetering on the infinite point or fulcrum of truth.
That point of balance is the point of equality, nature's harmony, justice, the scale's only single simple truth.


That is a very good way to describe the idea of a single truth of equality. I imagine it could very well work out that way.:a-ok:
 
MJA
 
Reply Fri 27 Mar, 2009 12:18 pm
@ddancom,
ddancom wrote:
A balance that measures nothing is altogether useless. You neglect what must lie on each end of the scale -- that which must be compared: concepts.


Truth is never useless, equal is absolute.
And concepts are concepts, whereas truth is as true as it gets.
You know the great Socrates couldn't see it either, but he sure tried.
And to this day most of those who followed couldn't see the truth either.
Einstein came close to =, but then went the other Way.
He died without knowing how simple truth really is.
Perhaps One day dd, you as well as the rest of mankind will see the simple light,
the light of truth, the truth of equality, the universal constant or absolute of us All, the truth that will set us free.

=
MJA
 
manored
 
Reply Fri 27 Mar, 2009 06:43 pm
@doc phil,
doc wrote:
The way it is, is not the way it has to be.
It can improve, but it cant be perfect.

ddancom wrote:
My view is this: for sustainable, non-momentary social equality to exist, there must a complete lack of conflict within society. Put simply, there must never be a loser in any social interaction.
That level of equality sounds scary and hive-mind requiring, I think that "nobody starving to death" is enough Smile Well, maybe, but since we are eons of work away from that I suppose we can keep it like this for now Smile

Caroline wrote:
tell me manored if you had control over the means of production would you make it a conflict or would you seek fairtrade, myself i would fall into the latter unfortunately i dont get to make that decision unless i become a politicion or something, what can we do to veto this cruel way of production, im heading into marxism,who predicted man would come together and rise against and overcome governments however his theory fails in that man has become alienated and cannot come together, no doubt the government is grateful for that.
Well having total control is unrealistic, but if I had, I would create an independent government of the existing ones (what they could do about it winhout production?) and create some sort of socialist state, then spread about massively ideas themed at putting the whole before the individual and the reasons to do so, then try to make myself immortal because the main problem of leaders is that they die Smile

ddancom wrote:
A balance that measures nothing is altogether useless. You neglect what must lie on each end of the scale -- that which must be compared: concepts.
Dont try to argue with MJA, he will pretend he didnt listen any good points you might have made and say the same thing again in a different way.
 
 

 
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