Xris, in all due respect you are not going to hear an answer that will satisfy what it is you are looking for. No one on this forum is "discontent" with what it is "you" are looking for. Those of faith who wish to know God have no problem in identifying what God means to them. Whatever it is you are seeking, I hope you find it. There are many threads here that address the "God" subject" I I hope you will find an answer that will satisfy you. As far a detering those who for whatever reason find solace in their belief's your antagonism will be of no avail except perhaps satisfy you own "disbeliefs". I wish there were some words that could be uttered that would ease the stress you are going through evident by you short, terse responses. The fact is, IMO, any interpretation of God will not fit what you have determine a God should be. When someone gives an opinion not holding with what is popularly understood, you accuse them of "re-inventing" God. How can that be, when you don't agree with any interpretation, no matter what it is, as you continue to "blame" a God you don't believe in for all the misery in the world. That has been answered and more than once on this forum. Whether you believe it or not is really up to you. I hope you find what it is you are looking for.

William

xris said:

Ah! -- I see what you mean:

When people say "God", which "God" are they refering to?

I completely understand what you're talking about. Indeed this is a problem. Several times, in other threads, I've refered to what I call "God" and had people assume that I am a Christian (which I am not).

To clarify: when I refer to God, I refer to my personal conception of God, not to the "God" of any existing religion or philosophy.

Thank you for explaining, Xris.

William said:



Well put, William.

I am not stressed by my own disbelief but only by the reticence of those who declare their faith but refuse to explain the god they have discovered..if i told you i had discovered a country with such a vague account of its locality or with no description you would doubt my honesty.. I dont disagree with their interpretation ...they have not given me one..

xris said:



Personally, I've tried to answer your questions to the best of my knowledge. If you still have any questions for me, I'd be happy to answer them.

Sorry but if they are as vague as your answer on why god created us i dont real know what to say..but thanks for trying..It is not discovering god more like wishful thinking...you need to know your god before you can claim his authentic..

Amen, I often find it frustrating to know what's being talked about.

But if I may, I don't think you're going to get much of an answer that'll make sense, Xris. That's part of the problem with conjured entities; each person conjures up their own definition - it becomes hard to communicate, much less describe for others' understanding.

I do; however, find it a fascinating topic and enjoy reading folks' beliefs.

Thanks

God made us cuz he was bored. Does he need a better reason?

xris said:



Xris, what do want? -- You seem to want hard and fast answers to questions that nobody knows the answer to. All I or anyone else here can do is answer to the best of our ability. I am reminded of a scene from the book, Zorba The Greek by Nikos Kazantzikas:

Man: "Why do the young die? Why does anybody die? Tell me!"

Scholar: "I don't know."

Man: "What's the use of all your damn books? If they don't tell you that what the hell do they tell you?"

Scholar: "They tell me of the agony of young men who can't answer questions like yours."

Xris, all we have are our beliefs and what little knowlege we have obtained. Nobody knows how the world was 'created' (or even if it was created). Nobody knows if a 'god' exists or doesn't exist. Nobody knows the meaning of life or if there is one. -- All we have are beliefs.

I'm afraid that nobody here will be able to give you the satisfaction you desire.



Some think so; I do not. I had an experience that was extremely real to me, as real as sitting here typing this message to you. I choose to believe that it was authentic. Whether anyone else believes it was authentic or not is irrelevent to me simply because it was not their experience, nor am I trying to convince anyone of anything. I'm simply relating my experience.

If we dont ask questions about faith its blind faith and is that what you require or you need? I dont doubt your experience but how can you prove to yourself it was god? i have had strange occurences that make me question my non belief but i dont stop asking questions nor do i accept them at face value..

Holding god in a moral light or ASSumming what characteristics god would have is all based on the human ego. Also if you do believe in god, Why would someone assume that we are created in any type of his image or concept? If god does exist i hope he blows my mind.lol

xris said:



I agree....conditionally:

Faith is, to some degree, blind. That is why it's called faith and not proof.

Certainly we should ask questions about things we don't understand. However, demanding that mysteries reveal themselves in a concrete way -- like opening up a book and reading it -- is not realistic.

If everyone had hard and fast answers to these questions, this forum would not exist because it would be unneccessary; everyone would already the answers to all questions. Philosophy would be redundant.

When one accepts things on faith (whether about philosophy or anything, including trust one's friends or spouse) they make a decision to accept certain things that they cannot prove.

It lies with the individual as to whether or not to accept a belief and/or experience as genuine. In my case, I do accept it. You, however, may not;
that is up to you. (Sidebar: whether you do or not is irrelevant to me as I am not here to prosletize or convince anyone of anything; I am simply sharing my experience in this thread.)



I can't "prove" anything.

I believe - based on my life experiences, education, intellect, physical sensations, emotional presence, personal history, and spiritual awareness -- that it was God.

That's what I believe. I can't prove it, nor am I trying to. I think I even stated as much in my opening post that started this thread.



I'm not accepting it at "face value". Many, many factors (as I described above) when into my decision to accept this experience as real.

Also, I must add that spritual experiences cannot be measure by the rules of the physical universe (eg. mathematics, physics, logic, etc). They are also, as far as I've seen or heard, entirely subjective.

To give you a similar concept: when you fall in love with someone, there is no test that can "prove" that you are in love with them. Only you can know if you are in love with someone.

Joe said:



Is that statement absolutely true in all possible universes for everyone or is it merely your personal take on things?



I don't believe or "assume" that.

Please do not confuse theism for Judeo-Christianity. They are not the same thing eg. not everyone who believes in a God accepts the tennants of J-C. I do not, for example.



It very well could. -- It happened to me!

BTW, why do you refer to God as "he"? -- That's the Judeo-Christian concept (and several others) again.

discovery of one's true self imho, is the discovery of God. imagination imho, is what i think faith is...i like to say "God has 12 billion eyes in the human world"...he, it, she, whatever, likes to look at itself from many different angles...mp

Then you follow the trail of logical conclusions all the way down to the "I think, therefore I am" you realize that pure logic doesnt acts on its own, and so to exist we have to trust certain decisions to our emotions... our emotions tell us to do and think things that make us feel good, so a "wishfull thinking" view of god becomes logical.

William...I am interested in seeing you fulfill this promise. Post your truth please, when you can.

One's true self changes all the time throughout life, especially with some of the pivotal moments and experiences we have, and as we age and mature. Or if our true self doesn't change, then our perception of it does. That must mean that God is formless and featureless and neither good nor bad, because he conforms to all of humanity's potential true selves in whatever moment we happen to be looking. Someone evil can discover his true self, and discover that his true self is evil. Is that also the discovery of God?

I think its impossible to know ourselves, because the act of self-observation would change us, so we would be seeing a past-self.

I think that knowing oneself is an important step to any sort of understanding, because one needs to know what one's own beliefs already are before one can seek to expand upon it. But with knowing oneself must come accepting oneself in order for one to reach any sort of enlightenment, whether that enlightment be spiritual, intellectual, emotional, metaphysical or whatever. It is true that we are ever changing, but that is part of the beauty and mystery of the self. Otherwise self-examination would be a rather boring exercise that we need only to bother doing once.

This is hard to explain in that it is all of mind. For the better part of the past 30 years I have been struggling to make some sense of life, why we are here. As I have offered in other posts, it is my firm belief our connection to the "universe" (God) is the mind. Without going into a lot of detail my "thinking" began to become what you might say "automatic" about 3 years ago when thoughts began pouring out as to what I had learned, experienced and I think "led to" that tied up many loose ends for me. The ease of which this assimilation of these thoughts came to me was remarkable. It was as if "someone else" was rummaging around in there much smarter than I sorting everything and putting it into some order. I would sit down and begin typing and was blown away as to what I was writing. The "truth" was just one of those words. Whether this phenomenon was just of me or to be shared was not clear. It consisted of bits and pieces of information that I had been gathering from life, religion, television, newspaper, people, myth, poetry, books, science, schooling, military, fairy tales, etc., including so many "miraculous coincidences" to numeral to mention. But as I examined much more closely what I was saying, I felt compelled to share it.

This truth is not something I arrived at myself. I had a lot of help. I am no different than anyone, other than what we have in our respective minds that identify who we are as we apply that knowledge we have gained so that it has the maximum utility not only for ourselves but for all. As long as we utilize that knowledge to appease the self, we are accessing our "free will". We were created to exist "on our own" apart from that we were created from. Considering the "list", I don't think we are doing such a great job. We are not free as long as we have to pay a price to live on this planet. Far from it. We are slaves. Free will is an illusion if by definition it means we can find our own solutions. Obviously we are missing the boat somewhere. See list. IMO Now this is a "truth", IMO. To the degree you do not agree is a result of the noise you have been programmed with which is a part of your "education" that allows you to develop your skills and talents that will enable you to "earn a living" doing your part to maintain the "status quo" that "dictates" how much free will you have. If you are one of millions who don't have the necessary skills that society needs to maintain it's "status quo", free will goes out the window and you are considered a "nothing" and become a "charity case" and a ward of the state which, if you are lucky, disabled or old, are thrown enough "scrapes" to survive.

As our technology increases we dig the abyss deeper and deeper as more and more people become useless and have little to offer to "society". The light at the end of the tunnel becomes dimmer and dimmer until it goes out completely for many human beings on the planet Earth. What do we do then? Of course the "logical" answer is we will cross that bridge when we come to it. Yeah, right.

As you say my friend, how am I privileged to this "truth". I have been professing it from the first day I became a member on this forum as I have been trying to explain how "God" fits in to that what we call "life". It is not so important for me to explain how this truth was arrived at, but to invoke thought and that "peace of mind" that would allow you to access that knowledge you have to contribute "without" the noise. That's God in motion. That's you "tuning" up with God. It's not about religion, it's about how life was "meant" to be. IMO. What I have experienced it just to extraordinary to assume it is for me alone and I felt it incumbent on my part to see what others would think. Many latch on to it, others don't. As to what determines that can only be answered by the individual and their personal life experiences.

Thinking becomes effortless as what I call a "divine process" begins to assimilate the knowledge you have accumulated, bypassing the noise. Most have become dependent on the noise as they effort to use all the knowledge they have "stored" to give reason to the self and that is what is so "complicating". It is virtually impossible for this divine flow to take place as it cannot compete with the noise the self is so dependent on. Now what it is that allows that "divine" sorting to take place, I can only assume will come from the individual as they in effect surrender the "ego" and more or less open up and lower the barriers that isolate them and protect them. That is not easy to do.

As this free flowing thought begins to flow, I think most will be surprised at the affect it has on others they come into contact with. The ego, in all cases will be hard to communicate with, which is understood and something that is to be expected. You will be surprised at how so very many want to hear what you have to say as what you say will come effortlessly to you. This is the extraordinary part.

All I will say concerning my life in my search for truth was I had a lot of help. That journey is not one an individual can traverse on his own. For me to reach a clarity of thought is all consuming and the material world becomes a haze in that nothing else matters but the journey itself. I have absolutely nothing to hold on to nor do I care to. My only purpose to share what I have learned with those who wish to hear. Those who do not, there is nothing I can say that will deter the egotistical manner in which they think. Again understandable, for that is how we have been conditioned that allows us to survive in this reality. Each man for himself, so to speak. And that mentality couldn't be farther from the truth. But it is hard to explain for self is all too consuming.

Once there, you begin to "understand" what heaven, hell, life, God, religion, fear, worry, stress, guilt, hate, joy, egoism, Christ, sacrifice, evil, wisdom, knowledge and all that are as you begin to see clearly as you have never seen before. Still breaking through the noise is a most frustrating effort and why I am becoming to understand that argument is useless in that those who want to hear, will hear and those that don't, won't. It is a simple as that. My personal experiences are not your personal experiences, as I can only hope what I have to say will be complimentary to all. I know that is wishful thinking, but it is how I like to think.

As far as what I have gone through in the past 30 years, I feel is not necessary only to say that I have experienced the good, the bad and the ugly of life as I was meant to. I can only hope my words and thoughts speak for themselves and hope will bring a little clarity to others.
William