Discovering God

@William,

Hey William,

William wrote:

James, pardon me for venturing off topic for a second, but considering your post as to whether death was a good thing or a bad thing as you expressed your guilt, it seems you are dealing with it like gangbusters. Keep it up my friend. Your head seems to be in good working order. Nice post.:a-ok:

William

Lmao gangbusters. Thankyou very much william:a-ok:.

God bless.
- Take care
James

@xris,

xris wrote:

I have seen some self centred mean replies in my time but this takes the biscuit...god does not help African children because there may be an increase in population..do you know Africa is the most least densely area on the planet..that aside your response is realy discusting and puts the faith driven into realms i never thought possible ...

I did not say god doesnt does X thing because of Y thing, I said that Y thing may not be a good thing. And you dont need to have more population than it fits in a country to have war. Call me disgusting if you will, but I believe the whole is more important than the individual: We must not help african children, and instead direct those efforts to fixing the broken structures of the society, and that will indirectly help the children.

Then I said subjective I meant it is personal: your idea of god is different from that of everone else, so there is no secret middle class consensus of god as xris seens to believe, nor can you use arguments such as "there is no magical force doing good out there" to justificate it is not benevolent: we do not know what kind of limitations it has. (if god was onipotent everthing would have already been accomplished)

@manored,

Public service announcement---------lol!!! Very Happy

:)Beyond Belief: Candles in the Dark is the third in an annual series of conversations: an ongoing project to foster and promote the use of reason in formulating social policy. This year, we asked participants to propose a Candle -- a potential solution to a problem that they have identified in their area of expertise or informed passion.

In The Demon-Haunted World, Carl Sagan wrote:
Science is more than a body of knowledge; it is a way of thinking. I have a foreboding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time -- when the United States is a service and information economy; when nearly all the key manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers are in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness.

At The Science Network, we embrace scientific meliorism (last year's meeting, after all, was entitled Enlightenment 2.0). We support science in its search for solutions. Can we better understand the neural underpinnings of human nature, our decision-making processes, the dynamics of trust and fear and human flourishing?

This U.S. election year, when science and reason in the nation's deliberations have been repeatedly challenged as irrelevant or elitist, and science seems to be estranged from society, Sagan's words sound prophetic -- an alarm call. Beyond Belief: Candles in the Dark is our response.

@xris,

xris said:

Quote:

I was a i thought for many ears a devout christian with a regular attempts at asking gods guidance and illumination..i then realised my desire for a benevolent god was an act of desire rather than the truth.

I think there's a very fine line between an 'act of desire' and an 'act of truth'. IMHO, the essence is in the nature of the desire. Is it a desire for personal satisfaction or a desire to understand the will of God for your life?

Quote:

now i have been a christian for 35 years and an agnostic for nearly as long..now dont you think its time for my lightning bolt ??

If you're asking me to explain God's will for you, I cannot do so. I have a personal relationship with God but it only extends to myself and God. What God wills and desires for other people is completely beyond me.

Quote:

are you special i ask you again why do the majority of people who ask never even receive an aknowledgement but you get the works :perplexed:

Absolutely no offense is intended, however, you sound bitter that I recieved the depth of spiritual awakening that I did while you feel you have not recieved as much. Yes?

If so, allow me to say that I have searched for reason and truth for over 20 years. I feel that God only revealed itself to me when my heart was ready to accept God's will for my life.

Even now, though I have had a spiritual awakening, I still struggle with doing as God wants me to do (as opposed to what my self wants).

Xris, if you're open to my suggestion, I'd say to continue to ask God for guidance and wisdom. Be humble before God. I believe that if you earnestly seek out God, God will reveal itself.

Something else to consider is this: in my case, I was a staunch atheist who completely did not believe in God in any capcity. You are an agnostic which leads me to believe that you have some capacity to believe in God. So when I had my "revelation" (to use your words), it was quite spectacular because I was going from '0-60' in one second. For you, it may not be as much because you already partially, at least, beleive in the possiblity of the divine.

Also, let me relate something to you. Just this past weekend, I was at a fundraiser event and had an opportunity to speak with someone about God.
I DO NOT prosletize in ANY capacity; the subject merely came up in discussion. I shared my story and remarked that I felt the presence of God all around me. The person I was with said, "I believe in God, but do not feel God around me like you do; I wish I did."

I elaborated this: I feel the presence of God in other people, in the rain, in the wind, in friendship and compassion. I suggested that perhaps this person was (to modify a line from a CW song) 'looking for God in all the wrong places'. -- In other words, instead of conceptualizing God as some being who exists as, perhaps, an old man (as many religious models teach), it's possible to conceptualize God as the essence of altrusim, the elements, the 'spirit' of friendship, hope, etc.

Perhaps, you, Xris, are looking for God to appear in a religious-based conceptualization and not seeing God in other forms? -- I could be wrong and don't mean to put words in your mouth, but I feel that God can make it's presence known in a variety of ways.

Hope this helps in some way.

@Joshy phil,

Joshy said:

Quote:

The irony I always find in the value of material objects is that they are only 'valuable' because humans believe they are. We have, over time, created a system where people can be better than others, dependant on what they possess.

Indeed.

Quote:

Often, I find, those who are at the top; who have all the money and power, are those who are so shallow when it comes to 'moral values'. No longer do human values come from who you are, but rather what you are.

Not always (as there are many great philanthropists) but in general, yes, it does seem this way.

It makes sense to me because if people worship money as a higher power, then that power has nothing to offer them other than a sense of social superiority (which is, in itself, quite empty).

@OctoberMist,

I am a happy contented agnostic who neither desires god nor feels the need to ask for his appearance to me as an individual..I am not bitter to a god i do not believe exists,how could i be? What i am bitter and twisted about is those who maintain his credibility as an acclaimed benevolent god but when questioned reinvent his purpose and either say his purpose is beyond our comprehension or make excuses for this horrific world he created..I ask pertinent questions and they are either ignored or are placed again in the realms of beyond our comprehension..Saying god should not interfere in Africa because it might cause a population explosion just makes me feel sick...

@William,

William said:

Quote:

If you don't mind me adding a thought here.

Your insights are always appreciated.

[quote] In the beginning it is "you and He combined" as you have noted, yet that still implies a separation which is absolutely accurate until you realize it is all you as you close gap to that separation and become to understand your oneness with God.
[/quote]I conditionally disagree. I believe that as a human being I have free will. Morevoer, I believe that God fully intended for me to have free will. Thus, I do not believe that God is a part of me, but rather a seperate entity.

[quote]
[/quote][quote] We are all a part of that "God".
[/quote]
William, I have to mildly admonish you here: I appreciate you sharing your belliefs, but I don't think you have the 'right' to unilaterally declare what God is or our relationship to God. If you notice in all my posts to Xris, I say "I believe that.." or "IMHO, .." (in my humble opininon). In other words, I am expressing my personal beliefs; not making a unilateral statement about the nature of God. William, I respect your belief system because I respect you as an individual. Yet, I do not feel that you know any more about God than I do. I think that all we (humanity) have are beliefs.

[quote]
[/quote][quote] We are His "instruments" for whatever reason we will know as grow. That's what our life is all about. The future is what we design in conjunction with that "divine" cooperation in each other.
[/quote]
Perhaps. Smile

[quote]
[/quote][quote]One truly fascinating read is Scott Adams short novelette "God's Debris". You can read it on line. It takes about an hour. It is the notion that God, on a lark decided to "blow Himself up" (the big bang) and put Himself back together again. Ha. Now of course an omnipotent God could easily do that. It ties a lot of loose ends for me. I would like to know what you think if you care to read it. [/quote]

Quote:

I will definitely check it out and report back my response. Thank you for the suggestion.

@OctoberMist,

I will always refuse to give myself up. I am vain, proud, and sure of my own abilities.

If this condemns me to hell, **** God, cause I didn't choose to be this way. How could I?

@manored,

manored said:

Quote:

If it is your will to serve him, his will is your will.

Not neccessarily in all situations.

I believe that God and I are seperate entities. I believe that I am endowed with free will and that, while I choose to serve God, not all of my decisions will be concurrent with God's decisions for my life.

In other words, I do not believe that it's "all or nothing" (The Either Or Fallacy). I think that adhering to God's will for my life is of paramount importance, but I think that God also takes into account that I am human (eg. not divine) and will make decisions of my own accord that God would not neccessarily choose for me. That is part of having free will.

I do not believe that having faith and trust in God negates the aspect of free will.

Quote:

The important point tough is that if something goes wrong in your life, dont fall in the trap of blaming something other than yourself.

Oh, I agree with this............to some degree. Smile

Allow me to elaborate: I think that, because I believe in God, that doesn't mean that God is going to make my life all roses and sunshine. Sometimes God, I think, will deliberately give me challenges (which may bring saddness, hate, or anger) in order to test me.

In any case, I think the challenge is in discerning whether or not a challenge is specifically from God or whether it's simply a element of the human world.

Quote:

Dont wait for the meaning of life to knock into your door, there is no absolute answer so you have to find your own.

No, I disagree. I am a theistic existentialist, so I do believe that I (not "we", because I can't speak for anyone else) have some control over the things / experiences that I take into my life. On the other hand, I do believe that God definitely influences my experiences and grants me wisdom when I am both open and capable of recieving it.

Quote:

For example I decided that nothing can force me to feel sad if I dont want, and that keeps me very happy.

I believe that is essentially true: nobody "makes" one feel something.

@Mr Fight the Power,

Mr. Fight the Power said:

Quote:

I will always refuse to give myself up. I am vain, proud, and sure of my own abilities.

Ok.

Quote:

If this condemns me to hell, **** God, cause I didn't choose to be this way. How could I?

No offense, MFTP, but you completely contradict yourself.

You say you choose to be this way and then you say you don't. Which is it?

Let me break it down for you:

"I will always refuse to give myself up." -- Your choice through free will.

vs.

"F___ God, because I didn't choose to be this way."

But you did; you just said so.

@OctoberMist,

Mr. Fight The Power,

One final comment: Nobody here, especially not me, is talking about anybody being "condemned to hell". -- Just wanted to clear that up.

Personally, I do not beleive in the concept of "Hell" .

@OctoberMist,

OctoberMist wrote:

William said:

Your insights are always appreciated.

I conditionally disagree. I believe that as a human being I have free will. Morevoer, I believe that God fully intended for me to have free will. Thus, I do not believe that God is a part of me, but rather a seperate entity.

William, I have to mildly admonish you here: I appreciate you sharing your belliefs, but I don't think you have the 'right' to unilaterally declare what God is or our relationship to God. If you notice in all my posts to Xris, I say "I believe that.." or "IMHO, .." (in my humble opininon). In other words, I am expressing my personal beliefs; not making a unilateral statement about the nature of God. William, I respect your belief system because I respect you as an individual. Yet, I do not feel that you know any more about God than I do. I think that all we (humanity) have are beliefs.

Perhaps.

I will definitely check it out and report back my response. Thank you for the suggestion.

Thank you for bringing that to my attention. Sometime's I fail to realize others in that their belief's may differ from mine. You see my friend, from my experience's in life I have come to determine these are not just "my opinions", but are a truth that cannot be grasped by most and it is only courtesy that I iterate them to be "my belief's". I was where you are once, but have traveled a little farther down the road, as you will too. Please forgive my assertiveness when it appears. I, more than most, realize such revelations that have occurred in my life will occur in others when they are ready for it. I just try very hard to help them understand the faith that is needed for such a revelation to occur.
William

@OctoberMist,

OctoberMist:

Do does not mean choose.

But I appreciate that you do not accept the concept of hell. While I don't particularly deny God, the classical formulation with hell and all that seems a little wonky to me.

@xris,

xris wrote:

I am a happy contented agnostic who neither desires god nor feels the need to ask for his appearance to me as an individual..I am not bitter to a god i do not believe exists,how could i be? What i am bitter and twisted about is those who maintain his credibility as an acclaimed benevolent god but when questioned reinvent his purpose and either say his purpose is beyond our comprehension or make excuses for this horrific world he created..I ask pertinent questions and they are either ignored or are placed again in the realms of beyond our comprehension..Saying god should not interfere in Africa because it might cause a population explosion just makes me feel sick...

I was giving an example to indicate that god and evil are RELATIVE, so what is the path for the greater good for you might not be the same path that god thinks as right. Also, like I said, we dont know what kind of limitations god might have, but its quite obvious he has then, even if they are self-caused, as else everthing would have been done. Unless you believe someone with good intentions but unable to make then reality is not benevolent.

People who claim and affirm that there is a benevolent god do so because they fell that there is such a god. Whenever its true or stuff from their mind is irrelevant, they believe it and therefore they will follow the other human nature of trying to convince people of it. So dont espect a logic explanation for a benevolent god: nobody has the basis to give you this.

OctoberMist: I can see we disagree in a fundamental point then, because I believe that if there is a god we are one with him, and that people who had revelations created their own god because they asked and their inner, "godly self" responded. But like I said everone has a diferent idea of god, so there is no really point in discussing this Smile

@manored,

So you are not defending god your reinventing him..is that true?

@xris,

xris wrote:

So you are not defending god your reinventing him..is that true?

No, it is not a matter of "reinventing" anything. We never had it right in the first place. IMO.

William

@William,

Illuminate me please how is your god different to the accepted god of the bible?

@William,

William wrote:

You see my friend, from my experience's in life I have come to determine these are not just "my opinions", but are a truth that cannot be grasped by most and it is only courtesy that I iterate them to be "my belief's".

William,

I've read this, and the previous posts a couple of times. Being a on-the-sidelines fan of different flavors of theism I enjoy reading such interchanges (it imbues just a *wee* bit more understanding of how the theistic mind operates).

But I gotta tell you; this statement is quite amazing. I'd like to be the first to congratulate you on having the truth. Would you mind gracing us with what that is please? I understand you think this something others can't grasp, but I'd really like to hear it.

This is not a sarcastic jab; it's an honest request.

Thanks

@xris,

xris wrote:

So you are not defending god your reinventing him..is that true?

I am not defending god, I am showing how a benevolent god is not as unlikely as it seens, I DO NOT believe god is benevolent, if he exists. I hope thats enough clarification Smile

Just as a comment, the christian god is, believe it or not, not the god of the bible. I think then you read the bible as a devote christian you tend to overlook his atrocities Smile

The difference is that our ideas of god are not based in the outside world, but in ourselves... they only really work for us.

@Mr Fight the Power,

Mr. Fight the Power wrote:

I will always refuse to give myself up. I am vain, proud, and sure of my own abilities.

If this condemns me to hell, **** God, cause I didn't choose to be this way. How could I?

And this is the humblest post in this thread, because at least it's honest in its frankness.

As for those claiming spiritual enlightment, consider for a moment what you say of yourselves. You tout humility, but the first word out of your mouths concerning your spiritualality is "I". "I searched..." "I accepted..." "I surrendered..." "I gave myself..." and then God revealed himself to you. As if your own will has any control over the divine! You're no closer to understanding God than the fellow who keeps saying "We are all God" or "We are all a part of God". This one cannot accept that there is anything in the universe that is greater than he is, so he puts himself on the same level as God.

Christ understood far more of God than all of you combined, and all he ever said was that God was his father. To be subject to, under the protection of, and accountable to. Not to be in command of or equal to. It was enough for Christ to call God father, but not enough for you? What gall! Do the world a favor and keep your spiritual revelations to yourselves; at least that way only you are deluded by your own ego.

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