Infinite

@Zacrates,

boagie

Quote:

Past, present and the future are all contained in the moment, the past is recollection, the present is awarness, and the future is expectation. "There has never been a man who lived in the past, and there will never be a man whom will live in the future." Schopenhauer The moment now is eturnity and it is full of temporality. What was it Blake said, eturnity is in love with the productions of time, so, our existence is temporal, but the foundation upon which it rests is not.

I see your point and yes how could an infinite being like god be confined to linear time?

I think he exists in an "ever changing moment", but maybe unlike us can jump between different moments into different dimensions who knows

@Alan McDougall,

Alan McDougall wrote:

boagie

I see your point and yes how could an infinite being like god be confined to linear time?

I think he exists in an "ever changing moment", but maybe unlike us can jump between different moments into different dimensions who knows

Hi Alan,

What makes you think god exists at all. Lack of knowledge rather demands faith does it not, kind of a wish fulfillment that we really do have knowledge, besides, the concept I was speaking about is one moment, that one moment being eturnity. Why cannot the religious just accept that it is a great mystery. All thngs in existence metaphors referencing that great mystery.

YouTube - Richard Dawkins: An atheist's call to arms

@boagie,

Hi Boagie

Quote:

What makes you think god exists at all. Lack of knowledge rather demands faith does not, kind of a wish fulfillment that we really do have knowledge, besides the concept I was speaking about is one moment, that one moment being eturnity. Why cannot the religious just accept that it is just a great mystery. All thngs in existence metaphors referencing that great mystery.

I am not religious in fact i despise any form of religious fundamentalism

But I cant help observing design in the Universe, the astronaut Michel said he has an Epiphany when he looked at the earth from the moon, he states that He knew earth was no accident

I use logic , my own logic especially in the light of an amateur astronomer.

There is a Goldilocks effect that allows us to exist, if even one of the fundamental constants differed even minutely we would not exist

The mass of the moon, the inclination of the earths celestial poles and the exactly right distance between the earth and the sun must be exactly as it is to allow life to exist and so on brings me to believe in a higher intelligence that we humans. I could add pages

I do not think we are the highest form of sentient life in the universe or that we sit on the pinnacle of creation

I am humbled when I look at the unimaginable beauty of the universe

More astronomers believe in god than those who do not

I am comforted in my belief that God exists and I hope to live for eternity.

And if we the universe is Everything, how can we explain eternity. The expansion of universe is accelerating and dying

@Alan McDougall,

Alan,

If one were to adapted to a conditon of chaos one would then, call it order. Approximately seven percent of both the scienific community and the intelligentsia are religiously oriented, almost completely at odd with the American electrorate. So, what this means is, that the most intelligent in our midst are denied the right to hold office, unless they lie about their beliefs---ignorance is held in sacred trust you might say.

@Zacrates,

Alan,

I applaud your stance on intelligent design. I have no interest in religion either, but I also know logic when I see and hear it.

If one went out into the jungle and came across a beautifully crafted house, they would instantly know that it was designed by someone with great skill and talent. They would not have to see the builder or know anything about him at all to know that he exists.

And yet some people can walk out into the universe, and not know that there was a builder for all of that.

It is strange to say the least.

@Zacrates,

boagie

Quote:

If one were to adapted to a conditon of chaos one would then, call it order. Approximately seven percent of both the scienific community and the intelligentsia are religiously oriented, almost completely at odd with the American electrorate. So, what this means is, that the most intelligent in our midst are denied the right to hold office, unless they lie about their beliefs---ignorance is held in sacred trust you might say

I do not dispute this statistic, but maybe they are not religious just like me and intelligent enough to make up their own minds if there is a god or if there is not a god

I cant agree that any intelligent entity would ever call chaos order There is beautiful order right here on earth and great chaos as well and I can easily differentiate the difference.

Pathfinder I see in you a person who makes up their own mind what you will accept and what you think is illogical

Great man!!

@Zacrates,

Boagie,

I would have to actually see the person facing down a week of asteroid impacts literally wiping out his hometown and adapting to it so easily that he would consider it order.

I think there is a disticnt difference between what can be designated order and what can be seen as chaos. You may be talking about chaos of a lesser degree maybe, with a little less impact on creation and its inhabitants..

@Pathfinder,

Hi Fellows, Smile

Well yes you did chose the most extreme sense of the concept of chaos, but, what if you were to be returned to the conditions of the early earth, with an atmosphere of noxious gases and little oxygen, the concept is not quite as absurd as you would paint it. ID to, it has been pointed out that if there was indeed an intelligent designer, that a great many of this gods designs could have been a great deal better, meaning why would they be designed so, when there are much better alternatives.

@Zacrates,

Just because a design is dangerous to life doesn't mean that it is flawed Boagie.

Yo yourself continue to suggest that the human is not the center of attention so why would you propose that as an excuse for atheism.

Persoanlly my friend, I would be as frightened by an asteroid bearing dowen on me whether I was a neanderthal or present day human, lol and the fact that I live among volcanoes goin off everyday still wouldnt make the fact that lava burining my feet off is an unpleasnat experience.

We question what we do not understand. There is no need to question what we already have the answers to.

Who can judge the creator of the universe by what he has made? Are you suggesting that there is something else out there that can do better? Or are you suggestiung that the creator should have consulted you for suggestions before he began?

TONGUE IN CHEEK!

@Pathfinder,

Pathfinder, Smile

I take it you do not believe in evolutionary biology--oh well. Have you been to the creation museum in Kansas, you would find it most delightful. Do ID supporters really believe that the public cannot tell it is all the old stuff rehashed.

@Zacrates,

God The Supreme intelligence

With great need, humans want to have their spirit united with a supreme intelligence. This requires knowledge of a supreme wisdom relating to earth and knowledge of the human spirit.

With this knowledge developed and understood over generations, humanity has chosen to turn away from the earth which is in a constant state of creation where an infinite supreme intelligence is ever speaking to the spirit of all humanity.

This order and harmony that humans can perceive in the natural world is attributed to a divine providence that orders and controls the entire universe intelligently and rationally.

These essential elements of finite things reveal a supreme intelligence but in an exalted degree and in a manner that can not be comprehended by a human in its entirety.

This supreme intelligence is conceived of as having constructed the universe in such a way that humans have in their possession all that is within the compass of their own character or moral choice and nothing else.

The capacity that a human has for understanding, accepting and embracing this state of affairs is in the nature of perfect unity, invisible and incorporeal, transcending all things material.

The question that really 'matters' is whether humans do have a basis, sufficient in reason (whether speculative or practical) for attributing a final purpose to the supreme cause acting in terms of purposes.

Since a supreme intelligence creates all things with its own purpose, then a human cannot perceive anything without seeing a supreme intelligence in those things.

Human words are not to be used without meaning. In understanding humanity and in accordance to the human way of thinking and in consequence with human principles, it should follow that humans are only a system of floating ideas, without any substance to support them.

Consciousness is the reality of the human universe. Therefore humans are causalities of their conscious beliefs and fears.

Whatever a human believes they become and what ever a human fears they manifest.

According to the human principle of sufficient reason, there must be as much reality (formally or eminently) in the cause of any idea as (objectively) in the idea itself.

Therefore, the idea humans have of infinite perfection originated from a supreme intelligence with infinite formal perfection.

It follows that the idea could not have originated in a human. The origin of the idea could only be the real existence of a supreme universal intelligence.

One could even expand on this logic and conclude that the mind of each human is literally a fragment of a supreme universal intelligence.

Humans have an idea of that which has infinite perfection. There must be a first mover, unmoved.

A first cause in the chain of causes. An absolutely necessary intelligence.

An absolute perfect wisdom. A rational designer.

Conclusion:

Humans are naturally desirous of immortality and therefore examine with some care how far their natural light being or spirit may lead them in respect to a shared immortality with a supreme intelligence.

The best way to know the will of this supreme intelligence would be through the express declaration and revelation rendered by the sole light of nature on earth and the sole light of nature on other planets which is perfectly founded and confirmed on facts.

This happy agreement between nature and the revealed light of a supreme intelligence is honorable to both humans and thier creator

Transcending space and time to form the "essence of essences" and "idea of ideas" one must conclude;

To those who believe in a supreme intelligence, no proof is necessary. To those who do not believe, no proof is possible.
Alan

_______________________________________________

@Pathfinder,

Pathfinder wrote:

Just because a design is dangerous to life doesn't mean that it is flawed Boagie.

Yo yourself continue to suggest that the human is not the center of attention so why would you propose that as an excuse for atheism.

Persoanlly my friend, I would be as frightened by an asteroid bearing dowen on me whether I was a neanderthal or present day human, lol and the fact that I live among volcanoes goin off everyday still wouldnt make the fact that lava burining my feet off is an unpleasnat experience.

We question what we do not understand. There is no need to question what we already have the answers to.

Who can judge the creator of the universe by what he has made? Are you suggesting that there is something else out there that can do better? Or are you suggestiung that the creator should have consulted you for suggestions before he began?

TONGUE IN CHEEK!

If you make that monumental leap of faith and say we have a creator you have to start describing him.If your description tells us he just does what he pleases and we are of no consequence, yes thats fine because thats what the evidence tells us.He is a thinking creator, he has unbound intelligence but does not comprehend benevolence or care what his creation actually does:perplexed:

@boagie,

I would love to be able to visit one of those museums Boag.

We don't have much of a museum where I live and I have never been in any of the big ones.

@Pathfinder,

Pathfinder

Quote:

I would love to be able to visit one of those museums Boag.

We don't have much of a museum where I live and I have never been in any of the big ones.
__________________

Those museums are really really silly, according to them "the creationists", god made the whole universe and the earth in exactly six literal earth days.

The day of creation was 4 200 BC Sunday April 15 :sarcastic:

Why did he choose an earth day before the earth was formed or even began to revolve on its axis?

They go to great lengths to convince the uninformed that the flood happened exactly as the bible states.

When asked about how did Noah get the huge dinosaurs into the ark , they reply is , O!! Noah was a very clever chap, he only put baby dinosaurs on the ark :perplexed: :bigsmile:

I am not a six day creationist, this is silly even stupid to me, yet some highly intelligent people believe this :perplexed:

I would call myself a person who believe there is an infinite intelligence behind creation and existence, and this great cosmic mind will forever be beyond human comprehension

I like the idea that out there there is something infinitely greater than little finite mortal me Smile

@Zacrates,

Xris,

Why does one have to be able to describe the creator just because they know its there? I am not obligated to do any such thing.

For example, you know that someone designed the Taj Mahal dont you? Does that mean ofr that person to exist you must now be able to describe him to me?

Also is he now obligated to personally reveal himself to you just because he buolt something that you have witnessed? Is he obligated to answer to you morally and interact with you on levels of intimacy that protect you from nature?

You place a great deal of expectation on a force that could wipe us all from existence with a sneeze don't you think!

@Alan McDougall,

Alan,

I am assuming that not all of the natural museaums are like that but I do not know.

However my desire to visit one is simply founded in viewing the wonderful displays, I would have no expectation of discovering any proven truths. As you probably have read somewhere in one of my posts, I am a firm believe that rtuth cannot be so easily nailed down.

@Alan McDougall,

Alan,

I would like to know if this is a quote from somehwere or your own words.

There is much here that fall into my line of thinking so I am curious about the source.

Two things though,

First of all, I would avoid the use of the word 'believe' simply because of the conotation of blind faith, which is what your final sentence suggests. I do not promote blind faith and any partiality toward any particular thinking or teaching requires some regime of credibility and logic. However I do acknowledge that most of what was said in your post I would accept as credible and logical.

Secondly, with regard to this cut:

The best way to know the will of this supreme intelligence would be through the express declaration and revelation rendered by the sole light of nature on earth and the sole light of nature on other planets which is perfectly founded and confirmed on facts.

This sounds as though it is teaching the oneness of creation philosophy wrapped into a creator package which would aslo fall into my line of thinking to a degree. The only difference being the benevolence of that creator. What exactly does this quote mean when it says the sole light of creation on earth and other planets? Is that simply referring to the obvious design of creation?

It would help to know where this information came from.

Your friend,
Pathfinder

@Zacrates,

This was said or quoted above by Alan and caused me to consider it in more depth:

The question that really 'matters' is whether humans do have a basis, sufficient in reason (whether speculative or practical) for attributing a final purpose to the supreme cause acting in terms of purposes. UNQUOTE

After taking all that I have thought over into deep consideration, dare I conclude anything at all?

Conclusions are for those who want others to think that they have found the truth and no longer need to search. Conclusions are for those who believe they have nothing more to learn. And conclusions are for those who believe that there is no mystery to be unraveled.

What I can do with information I attain is discern it, and then either retain it as knowledge, or cast it away as falsehood. What I retain as knowledge I can use to compare against further acquisitions of information to help discern its worth and merit. I can also use knowledge to assist me in living this life and building the 'life giving force' within me, that I have become, into a moral and intelligent entity.
In a universe as vast and mysterious as ours there is more to be learned that we can imagine. To believe that we comprehend a considerable portion of that is ludicrous. We are one tiny percentage of a huge creation with incomprehensible limits. Our greatest intellects know nothing in comparison. What I can be sure of is that whatever the mystery behind creation is, must be the most powerful force in the universe. And that, because it is the origin of all things, it is therefore the source of ultimate truth and intelligence. So regardless of what we learn might be true, if we are truly on a path to truth and intelligence, then it is at the source that our paths should end.

The question is, on that journey, does how we walk that path really matter when there seems to be no moral authority in this world. If all of the world's religion is merely traditional wishful thinking, than its directives are not authoritative. And if the governments are mostly corrupt than their laws are useless as guidance. So if we are left to find our own path to the source, and there seems to be no laws or authority to lead us, than are we free to disregard authority from other places?

It is this walk through the fog of mystery that is the true test of a man.

There is a house about three blocks from mine where the owners leave a small childs motorized jeep out in the yard everynight. My three year old son would love to have it. I would love for him to have it myself. I cannot afford to buy one, but I could easily have that one. What is to stop me from going there late one night and throwing it in the back of the car?

Well, there it is! This one dilemma can be asked with so many references to life's various situations. Religion easily addresses the dilemma by claiming the laws of their god as authoritative. But it is not so easily answered if you cannot assign a supreme directive. If I do not adhere to any authority, than why can't I have that little car for my son? I could force them to at least share it with me.

If man learns anything in this life at all it should be that the path he walks is the path he places before him, and the one he leaves behind him. This path can only be made as he places one foot ahead of the other and moves forward, and he can only do so by choosing which direction he will take. Without direction from another source he is forced to make these decisions himself, using only what knowledge and wisdom he has attained in life.

Where this path leads to will be the 'person' that he will become. At the end of that path will be the person that he created. When I declare that I am a thought of the creator, moving forward and evolving myself as I move, I acknowledge the fact that I am creating who and what I am, by the empowernent of the original thought of this mystery we call the First Cause. Without the original I could not exist to become anything, and by the deliberate empowering design of the original I freely design what I will become at the end of this path I am travelling.

So the reason why I would not steal that child's bike has nothing to do with the moral laws of some archaic religion, or even the laws of society. The reason I would not take it is simply because I want to become the type of person who would not want his own child to have something that it loves stolen from it. An ancient wise counsel once said that we should do unto others as we would have done to ourselves. I suppose that counsel is agreeable as long as the person following it is not a murderer or sadist.

To steal from others, or to do any harm to others, would make me a thief and an abuser, and that is not what I want to create. We also have to consider here that if we make abusers of ourselves, we are also making the same of mankind as a whole, because if everyone follows the same path, we end up with a race of beings that have no regard for each other, and have absolutley no ability to live with each other. Always at war, they would soon exterminate their entire species. Is that something we should strive to create for our future? If not, than we have the responsibility to make sure that we do nothing to create that in ourselves.

So, as we walk that foggy path to the source of knowledge, we are faced with choices that result in who, and what, we will become based on the decisions we make around those choices. And there are qualities of character and personality that consist of moral and immoral aspects that cannot be designated by the laws of man's philosophies and beliefs. These are qualities that are more akin to the laws of natural physics and dynamics than they are to righteousness, which is more of a religious nature.

It is simply a matter of what a man wants to add to his character and identity as he walks this path. It is what he collects as supplies with which to build his character that will create the building he becomes, so to collect qualities like courage, compassion, sensitivity, loyalty, and integrity will provide supplies for a character that is the opposite of one built by using deceit, insensitivity,hate and moral corruption. The supplies we choose along the way depend entirely on what we deliberately pick up and add to our warehouse.

In my warehouse there will be nothing that does not add to the morality and integrity of my character simply because I firmly believe that this is the goal for the entire human race, and the only way that we will ever live in harmony with each other, which is what I also believe is the ultimate goal for us as humans. Love and harmony should not be cast aside as weaknesses of wishful thinking pacifists only. These should be seen as building blocks that will construct the type of buildings suitable for a place where many like it will commune together in harmony, benefiting from each other in many ways. Whereas building blocks of the antitypes of these will result in a place where war and havoc will always rule over their lives. The decision is ours; the path we will create and leave behind us.

Sincerely,
Pathfinder

@Pathfinder,

Pathfinder wrote:

Xris,

Why does one have to be able to describe the creator just because they know its there? I am not obligated to do any such thing.

For example, you know that someone designed the Taj Mahal dont you? Does that mean ofr that person to exist you must now be able to describe him to me?

Also is he now obligated to personally reveal himself to you just because he buolt something that you have witnessed? Is he obligated to answer to you morally and interact with you on levels of intimacy that protect you from nature?

You place a great deal of expectation on a force that could wipe us all from existence with a sneeze don't you think!

Sorry but thats a real silly analogy..Why should i question or want to know who built the Taj Mahal ? but if i did and i do why should i not be able to find out..You have made a statement of fact that creator exists but refuse to answer any questions about this creator or the proof that it exists..I could say i believe in fairies is that a sensible thing to say without being questioned? I dont expect anything from this creator because i dont know if it exists but if i came to that conclusion i would expect to be questioned about my reasoning.

@Pathfinder,

Pathfinder

Quote:

I would like to know if this is a quote from somehwere or your own words.

There is much here that fall into my line of thinking so I am curious about the source.

This is my own work one of many essays I have written over the years, but influenced greatly by my life long belief and knowledge that intelligent exists outside of out tiny world out in the unimaginable vastness of the dark void.

And of course by a life time of reading, meditating, researching and meditating a ceaseless journey for truth and dialogue with colleagues and friends of like minds.

I was hesitant to post this essay as the UFO thing is met with disdain, and rightly so

Of course many of the ideas I have learned during my life and included then in the library situated in the attic of my mind

I used the term "I believe" because to state "I know" would be unacceptable or even preposterous to many

"I just inserted this post here to see if anyone would read it or respond or indicated some interest, as you did"

I believe absolutely in a intelligent designer, but I distance myself from silly six day creationism.

The museums (six day creationist) I referred to and said contained I silly nonsense, I did mean "accredited scientific museums" Those are really good especially in the USA and Britain

I am a firm believer in life on other planets I also believe that the universe is awash with life.

I do not believe we will will contact them by use of a space ship or that they can traverse the unimaginable distance in any metal space vehicle to reach us.

There are portals right here on earth , the TV series "Star Gate" is not that far fetched. Indeed many ideas of movie makers are implanted in their minds and they think the movie is just a work of fantasy or way out imagination

But very often these movies unknowingly are reflecting actual truth

And yes we are a community of intelligent sentient beings, both galaxies and intergalactic.

The means of communication are by telepathy etc and even more highly developed what we call psychic senses

Even between different universes in fact, be they other dimensions right next to us or realms outside our physical universe

The creator or Infinite Mind , did not just create man , but he created countless other life forms on billions of world, each having its own problem to overcome before graduating , first to a family of nearby planets in near by solar system and finally when maturity is reached to join the great galaxtic family

The conclusion in the essay was just meant for that essay, it is not a conclusion of all knowledge and truth

If you have problems believing I could write this essay, please go to the "Creative writing sub -forum" and you can read that some of my essays are much deeper and profound than this one

Try this

Why do people always think the tune of alphabet song and twinkle twinkle little star, are sung to the same tune

And why did you just sing it in your own mind and found that was not true? :perplexed:

Get a pen and paper

Think of any letter the the twenty six letters of the alphabet. It is really simple. before you write it down the letter you first thought about in this simple test, observer the monitor and see if the letter pops into your mind

Don't cheat in this test of simple mind influencing Smile

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