Senior cleric declares Fatwa on terrorism

Get Email Updates Email this Topic Print this Page

josh0335
 
Reply Wed 7 Apr, 2010 08:52 am
@xris,
xris;148893 wrote:
Then your idea of democracy is false, it only allows the inclusion of Muslims


Who said? Not me.

Quote:
You still after numerous times of asking refuse to give your opposition to a Turkish democratic state, why is that?


I've already told you what I think of Turkey. It is an imitation of a Western model. What more do you want?

Quote:
As for our Jewish widow , I asked you for a independent account as you assumed a bias view on my report.


When you went to your anti-Islam website to learn that the Prophet raped a Jewish woman, did you ask for an independent account? No, you didn't. We only know of the life of the Prophet through witness accounts. We call them hadith. The authenticated hadith all say she was freed and then married by the Prophet after her 'idda' period (waiting period to ensure a woman is not pregnant from her previous marriage). She was not raped. You learnt this from anti-Islam websites, aimed at gullible people such as yourself, who have no interest in verifying anything they say. Which led you to repeating this tripe on a thinking man's forum to a Muslim who's infinitely more educated in Islam than yourself. Instead of shutting up, and realising you've fallen for a very common use of deceipt, you insist that you know more about the biography of the Prophet than me.

Quote:
So it is unnatural for an old man to bed a nine year old, you admit it?


Yes. This has been 'admitted' by all Muslims. When the Prophet approached Abu Bakr, his best friend and the father of Aisha, for her hand, his first response was , "But you're my brother (i.e. you are of a similar age to me)!" It was odd even in those times. But as I said before, the marriage was enjoined by God, and Muslims benefitted from it in so many ways, some of which I mentioned earlier.

Quote:
Just look up amnesty thats what I referred you to.


I called you out. You don't get to then tell me to do this and that to verify what you say. Since you're so fond of using websites for your info, let's see the site you used to show that Muslims are the main culprit of slavery due to Islamic teachings.

Quote:
Why should millions of slaves be taken from Africa by muslims over six centuries if they had been convinced of its illegality.


I never said it was illegal. I said it was phased out by Muhammad. Modern sharia would look to re-capture this.

Quote:
Even in the british Isles slaves were taken to Islam, hundreds of coastal villages raped and plundered for their human cargo, back to north Africa.


Let's see some evidence for this.

---------- Post added 04-07-2010 at 04:00 PM ----------

metacristi;148898 wrote:
Well, if you have not realized yet, islam contradicts some fundamental values of Enlightenment


What are the values of Enlightenment? And why does it matter if it does contradict?

Quote:
which produced Modernity (the islamic world had only a marginal contribution to this by the way, islam certainly doesn't work).
Of course, the Spanish Muslims had nothing to do with Europe coming out of the dark ages.

Try again. You asked me a question regarding how Muslims view their religion and scripture. Usually, this would mean that the one asking the question would then use the given answer and respond accordingly. Not, as you are doing, going off on a tangent. So there doesn't seem to be a reason for you asking the question in the first place.

Quote:
The only way in which islam can be made compatible with democracy is to renounce sharia for good (the political part of islam should be dropped entirely,
You would first have to define democracy, and then define sharia to show they are incompatible. You've done neither in any of your posts so far.

Quote:
islam should become a personal religion as are all other major religions).
Why?

Quote:
I wanted to know what average muslims think of sharia and I got the answer I expected:
Which was what?

Quote:
You said nothing, sharia itself does: it is in total contradiction with elementary human rights.
How?

Quote:
Happily we still have a standard of Rationality and it points ruthlessly towards my conclusion: sharia is incompatible with the modern world
How?

Quote:
Sharia is sharia,
What is sharia?

Quote:
Are you sure?
Yes. What you pasted after this doesn't even support your argument.

Quote:
A real democracy require, among others, the total separation between the state and religion;
Why?

Quote:
in a real democracy all people are equal before the law (not only muslims, males and so on)
Which is not true. Criminals are not equal once they have a criminal record in any democracy. Are you saying this is wrong or you've simply made a mistake in your definition of true democracy?

Quote:
and the will of the people can even lead to important changes in the laws themselves.
Not true. Even the will of the people is not enough for most instances of consititutional change. Ever heard the term 'you can't do that, it's unconstitutional!'? That which is in the constitution of any state is meant to be the very glue to hold together the fabric which cannot be simply changed by the whims of the people.

Quote:
In islam we have double standards (non muslims have basically no rights,
How?

Quote:
atheists have to be killed if they refuse to convert,
Wrong.

Quote:
females have less rights etc)
How?

Quote:
and a group of laws which are considered 'frozen', valid forever (imposed by religion via a group of islamic scholars who cannot be challenged in any way)
No different to constitions throughout the world.

Quote:
I've already told you islam is not capable to assure the same rights for minorities (even in relatively liberal countries),
You haven't explained how.

Quote:
islam is essentially undemocratic.
How?
Quote:

Finally whilst the Western type of democracy gave us modernity (of which you like to profit) the islamic world gave us the 'islamic paradises'
The Western world is in debt to the Islamic world.

Quote:
Islam didn't work in the past
How?

Quote:
and all evidence points that it is utterly unlikely that it will do so in the future (it leads also to a much narrower intellectual horizon, scientific quest is in danger, severely limited by the islamic 'turbans of the mind').
How?
Quote:

You have not bothered to read a word from what I posted here before
Guilty as charged.

When did a bigot like Ali Sina become an authority in Islam? I want you to explain to me how Islam is not moderate without a c&p job.

Quote:
Do you happen to have some reasons for this? He merely says islam is peace,
No I didn't.

Quote:
islam is egalitarian,
Didn't say this either.

Quote:
islam is democratic,
Which it is. You've yet to show me it isn't.

Quote:
islam is...but with no real justification.
Kind of rich coming from someone who is using Ali Sina as justification...

Quote:
Unfortunately for him the qur'an is not infinitely elastic in interpretation, no mental gymnastics can wipe out the dark parts of islam.
What dark parts?

Quote:
The only solution is a non-trivial reformation; and apologies for the dark past of islam: muslims brain-shawed somehow themselves and believe that their religion was white as snow: the peak of delusion.
What delusion?
 
xris
 
Reply Wed 7 Apr, 2010 09:56 am
@josh0335,
I think you need to make yourself very clear on democracy because your objections of Turkey appear to be they are democratic. A caliph , do you think it is a democratic system?

I ask you, give me a reason why a women who was forced to stay in the tent, all night, with the man who had just killed her husband and father, would volunteer to be married the very next day? Your reasoning from the texts is very strange. He kept her in his tent all night and then married her:perplexed: The story also tells us, all her the other females were raped but your saying not her:perplexed:

I am sure you can research as well as I on the slave trade in Africa and in europe ..its so darned easy..a book by Giles Morton called White slaves..is very educational..wickie gives you the story of modern African slave trade and the involvement of muslims. Im not as you suggest often posting links but if you really insist I can.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Wed 7 Apr, 2010 10:01 am
@josh0335,
josh0335;148755 wrote:

Islam has been democratic from the start.

?


That is not much of an answer to the question whether Sharia is compatible with a modern democratic state. In fact, it seems to be evading an answer.
 
metacristi
 
Reply Wed 7 Apr, 2010 03:44 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;149240 wrote:
That is not much of an answer to the question whether Sharia is compatible with a modern democratic state. In fact, it seems to be evading an answer.


Muslims don't understand that it is not enough to have for example elections for municipal council positions or general elections as in Iran, Pakistan etc (whilst still having large parts of sharia in the Constitution) to create a state which gives fair chances to all people. They don't seem to realize that it is exactly the secularist system which gives them so many rights in the West. Of course no one deny that religious values can have a place (although by no means 'frozen' forever there) in modern constitutions but this only if they could 'shine' by themselves and not because some religious traditions via a group of religious leaders and so called islamic scholars (who cannot be challenged in any way) impose them in the Constitution. Unfortunately nothing 'shine' in sharia which is basically incompatible with modern values (Rationality points ruthlessly towards this)...Muslims seem to believe that merely claiming its divine nature*, especially when they are a majority, entitle them to impose the discriminatory sharia in the Constitution and to keep it forever there, curbing also free speech (islam is definitely religious fascism). But of course the tyranny (in the sense of eliminating all real diversity) of the majority has nothing to do with modern democracy... All existing evidence points that for the vast majority of muslims sharia in the Constitution is one important goal, no reasonable concession will 'work' with them if islam remain unreformed, that's why exposing muslims to open criticism of islam (at the academic level) in non-muslim countries is certainly a much better strategy than appeasing islam. Not necessarily for muslims (in general incapable to go beyond their 'turbans of the mind') but for the many non muslims who think that islam is like all the other major religions (peaceful at the core) and deserve the same respect...Better 'offend' the muslims now (of course nothing is offensive in such a strategy, rationality is not negociable) than having to fight later (the example with the Nazis show us that appeasing extremist ideologies is never a solution)...


*no rational non-mulim can accept this of course, on very good reasons


A True Islamic Reformation - ibn Warraq is a little too optimistic (muslims should renounce the view that the qur'an is the eternal and exact word of allah for a real, durable, reformation, something very improbable given the very reactionary nature of the islamic memeplex and the unwillingness of muslims to apply critical thinking) but we have to try for this is the only way to create a free society**...unfortunately even if they 'forget' somehow about the dvinity of the qur'an (including the religious duty to put in practice the political part of islam) for the moment and establish real democracies a return to the islamist past is always very probable as much as the supremacist, retrograde, discriminatory and violent parts of the qur'an are still there to confuse, not marked as erroneous or at least obsolete; indeed the experience of Turkey show clearly that muslims democracies are very instable, and anyway way less effective in defending the rights of minorities than in the West (only the army and the influence of the West still keep it alive)...


**no dualist system is satisfactory, sharia has to be subordinated to secular laws and only parts of it should be allowed (not in the Constitution of course, for people who want it), those compatible with modern laws and principles
 
metacristi
 
Reply Fri 9 Apr, 2010 02:53 pm
@jeeprs,
For those still unconvinced that islam cannot even protect minorities (let alone giving them fair chances) take a look at this (I do not agree of course with the view that islam is the 'root of all evil' but I certainly agree that islam is not like the other religions, it is definitely the antithesis of peace, egalitarianism and tolerance). Finally yep the mere existence of sharia in the constitution severely affect the lives of non muslims who have to comply automatically to muslims', the alleged 'superior race', (many) irrational taboos, demonstrably irrational...I do not know how other want to live but I do not want to go to jail (if not worse) for kissing a girl on the street because some dogmatic muslim is 'offended'...Critical thinking, real diversity and free speech are essential ingredients for the evolution of our species that's why real democracies, based on the values of Enlightenment, give basically the same rights to all religions, this irrespective of whether we accept or not that our religions are false (take a look at this video and see the real dimension of islamic perversion; they do not seem to ever heard of Enlightenment, as expected they take this tolerance as a sign of weakness of which they are entitled to profit):

YouTube - My Religion is True, Yours a Mistake!
 
josh0335
 
Reply Sat 8 May, 2010 04:43 am
@metacristi,
I took a short hiatus from this thread to go and join a few Islamic forums to get an idea of the general understanding of shariah amongst Muslims. And just like some of the guys here, many Muslims believe that shariah is a frozen set of laws, unchanging and not up for questioning. I've understood that this comes from a belief that 'shariah' is divine, and comes directly from God. But this is not true, as shariah is derived by humans using the Qur'an and teachings of the Prophet. It is thus, a human construct and is therefore up for constant revision.

To say 'shariah' is incompatible with modern life is like saying "British law is incompatible with modern life." British law from when? From the 1800's? British law is always changing so it's contemporary laws are not the same as it's laws in 1855, for instance. The same is true for shariah. What was considered shariah in 7th century Arabia would not be considered shariah today. Islamic jurisprudence must be understood in its historical, geographical, political and social context.

The problem with what I've just said, is that most Muslims (the ones I've spoken to anyway) would not agree. I suppose that means my opinions here don't really count for much.
 
xris
 
Reply Sat 8 May, 2010 04:53 am
@josh0335,
So whats the answer to our fears?
 
josh0335
 
Reply Sat 8 May, 2010 05:21 am
@xris,
Very few Muslim countries implement what I consider outdated shariah anyway. Most Muslim counties are secular. That in itself in encouraging, as it shows Muslims are not entirely convinced that what we're told is shariah is actually correct. Like most problems, the answer is education.
 
xris
 
Reply Sat 8 May, 2010 05:52 am
@josh0335,
josh0335;161637 wrote:
Very few Muslim countries implement what I consider outdated shariah anyway. Most Muslim counties are secular. That in itself in encouraging, as it shows Muslims are not entirely convinced that what we're told is shariah is actually correct. Like most problems, the answer is education.
The problem is, it can be implemented , even moderate states like Egypt impose strict laws that impede non muslims. You object to Turkey without defining your reasoning and that to me is secular and progressive.
 
josh0335
 
Reply Sat 8 May, 2010 06:41 am
@xris,
Egypt? How is Egypt moderate when it is ruled by a despot? Egypt's tyrant is supported by the USA and has kept power through corruption and violence.

Note that I said many Muslims believe shariah is frozen, not all. Many Muslims are progressive and seek to make Islamic law a dynamic process. My objection to the Turkish model is that it is an extreme form of secularism forced down the throats of the people. Religious expression in the public sphere is met with suspicion, characterised by the uproar caused by the wife of the Prime Minister wearing a hijab in public. Sufism is banned and forced underground. Turkey is more like France and less like the UK. That attitude originates from the extremism of Kemal Ataturk, who had deep enmity of Ottoman culture; resulting in ridiculous laws such as banning the Fez hat, and changing the script of Turkish from Perso-Arabic to Latin under the guise of progress and modernity. This will never be a model embraced by Muslims over the world.

Muslims want their governance to have an Islamic flavour. Islam is humanistic, with tenets like freedom of speech, religion and equal rights for all citizens. That is authentic Islamic culture, which many Muslims are trying to re-capture from the formalism and Wahabi type scholarship that has spread across the world.
 
xris
 
Reply Sat 8 May, 2010 07:20 am
@josh0335,
josh0335;161658 wrote:
Egypt? How is Egypt moderate when it is ruled by a despot? Egypt's tyrant is supported by the USA and has kept power through corruption and violence.

Note that I said many Muslims believe shariah is frozen, not all. Many Muslims are progressive and seek to make Islamic law a dynamic process. My objection to the Turkish model is that it is an extreme form of secularism forced down the throats of the people. Religious expression in the public sphere is met with suspicion, characterised by the uproar caused by the wife of the Prime Minister wearing a hijab in public. Sufism is banned and forced underground. Turkey is more like France and less like the UK. That attitude originates from the extremism of Kemal Ataturk, who had deep enmity of Ottoman culture; resulting in ridiculous laws such as banning the Fez hat, and changing the script of Turkish from Perso-Arabic to Latin under the guise of progress and modernity. This will never be a model embraced by Muslims over the world.

Muslims want their governance to have an Islamic flavour. Islam is humanistic, with tenets like freedom of speech, religion and equal rights for all citizens. That is authentic Islamic culture, which many Muslims are trying to re-capture from the formalism and Wahabi type scholarship that has spread across the world.
I dont understand your objections and your opinions, they appear to clash. Do you want a secular state or an Islamic state in Turkey. Many in Turkey, do fear the return of an Islamic constitution, they know once allowed it's impossible to return to secular. They see in similar countries, non Islamic parties are banned from participating because of sharia demands , Islamic democracy, not western style democracy.

As for Sufism or Wahhabi's, that's a Muslim problem not a secular problem. The hatred shown to Wahhabi's is not from western perspective its the muslims themselves that oppose its teachings.
 
Night Ripper
 
Reply Sat 8 May, 2010 07:28 am
@trismegisto,
trismegisto;147185 wrote:
I WOULD LIKE TO PERSONALLY APOLOGIZE TO THIS FORUM FOR THIS INDIVIDUALS INEXCUSABLE IDEOLOGY AND THE CONTEMPT AND DISRESPECT IT HAS CAUSED ME TO EXPRESS.

THIS TYPE OF FORUM FOR THE ADVANCEMENT OF KNOWLEDGE DESERVES BETTER THAN THIS MORON.


You're part of the problem too. We don't need people foaming at the mouth with rabid hatred of their opponents. You should realize that they are just like you, trying to make it in the world. If they are wrong, they have to be reasoned with. Nobody is just going to sit there, be abused and then change their mind based on your angry words.

You act like it's the end of the world but it's not. Relax.
 
josh0335
 
Reply Sat 8 May, 2010 08:14 am
@xris,
xris;161663 wrote:
I dont understand your objections and your opinions, they appear to clash. Do you want a secular state or an Islamic state in Turkey. Many in Turkey, do fear the return of an Islamic constitution, they know once allowed it's impossible to return to secular. They see in similar countries, non Islamic parties are banned from participating because of sharia demands , Islamic democracy, not western style democracy.

As for Sufism or Wahhabi's, that's a Muslim problem not a secular problem. The hatred shown to Wahhabi's is not from western perspective its the muslims themselves that oppose its teachings.


I'm arguing that these shariah demands come from a misunderstanding of what shariah is. Shariah is a problem solving system, not a frozen set of laws. So the 'demands' are not real. Islamic democracy is not like secular democracy, but many of the values are the same.

And the banning of Sufis is a secular problem, because it is banned by Turkey under the guise of secularism. Muslims themselves do not advocate the banning of any Muslim movement from a religious standpoint.
 
xris
 
Reply Sat 8 May, 2010 08:39 am
@josh0335,
josh0335;161675 wrote:
I'm arguing that these shariah demands come from a misunderstanding of what shariah is. Shariah is a problem solving system, not a frozen set of laws. So the 'demands' are not real. Islamic democracy is not like secular democracy, but many of the values are the same.

And the banning of Sufis is a secular problem, because it is banned by Turkey under the guise of secularism. Muslims themselves do not advocate the banning of any Muslim movement from a religious standpoint.
But you don't admit that under sharia democracy, none muslims are not allowed places of government or to hold office. For many the sharia is held as sancrosanct and its is inflexible in its allowance. How could a non Muslim have any confidence that any Islamic council in the future is not going to be controlled by those who hold the extremes of sharia, valid. It is ideal for certain muslims but not for all that may live under its control. Muslims do ban other sects and restrict other faiths practicing. Its well know the anguish between shia and Sunni.

The Egyptian government are also acting in an extreme manner purely because of the fundamentalist threat. Just see what happens to a non Muslim trying to give his wife a kiss on the cheek in public. For me its bizarre that men can kiss each other in public, as a welcome, but a man is prohibited from kissing his wife when they depart or meet. Its these silly laws that frighten the hell out of non muslims and that goes for non muslims in Turkey. Your freedom would restrict non muslims freedoms, cant you see that?
 
josh0335
 
Reply Sat 8 May, 2010 09:31 am
@xris,
xris;161687 wrote:
But you don't admit that under sharia democracy, none muslims are not allowed places of government or to hold office.


I'll admit this if you admit that you haven't read anything I've said.
 
xris
 
Reply Sat 8 May, 2010 10:07 am
@josh0335,
josh0335;161721 wrote:
I'll admit this if you admit that you haven't read anything I've said.
What are you on about? you ignore my pertinent questions and repeat your claims without clarification. Remember, I know that what you consider as democratic, bares no relationship to the western concept, you are being deceptive. You are not entering debate you are making unsubstantiated claims. I have read your posts again and again and nothing you have said answers my questions.
 
josh0335
 
Reply Sat 8 May, 2010 10:48 am
@xris,
xris;161746 wrote:
What are you on about? you ignore my pertinent questions and repeat your claims without clarification. Remember, I know that what you consider as democratic, bares no relationship to the western concept, you are being deceptive. You are not entering debate you are making unsubstantiated claims. I have read your posts again and again and nothing you have said answers my questions.


Quote:
But you don't admit that under sharia democracy, none muslims are not allowed places of government or to hold office.
This was answered by:

Quote:
Muslims want their governance to have an Islamic flavour. Islam is humanistic, with tenets like freedom of speech, religion and equal rights for all citizens.
Quote:
For many the sharia is held as sancrosanct and its is inflexible in its allowance.
This was answered by:

Quote:
That is authentic Islamic culture, which many Muslims are trying to re-capture from the formalism and Wahabi type scholarship that has spread across the world.
Quote:
How could a non Muslim have any confidence that any Islamic council in the future is not going to be controlled by those who hold the extremes of sharia, valid.
This was answered by:

Quote:
Shariah is a problem solving system, not a frozen set of laws.
Quote:
It is ideal for certain muslims but not for all that may live under its control.
This doesn't require an answer, as no system is ideal for everyone.

Quote:
The Egyptian government are also acting in an extreme manner purely because of the fundamentalist threat. Just see what happens to a non Muslim trying to give his wife a kiss on the cheek in public. For me its bizarre that men can kiss each other in public, as a welcome, but a man is prohibited from kissing his wife when they depart or meet. Its these silly laws that frighten the hell out of non muslims and that goes for non muslims in Turkey. Your freedom would restrict non muslims freedoms, cant you see that?
The Egyptian 'government' is not a government. I've already told you it is a dictatorship, in power from corruption and violence, purely because it is a key US ally. Shariah would treat Muslims and non-Muslims as equals. So if you wanted to kiss another man in public, you would be free to do so. But true shariah would also acknowledge differences in culture between different people, and would not pass such a silly law or prohibit such affection in public (provided you don't start making out with your wife inappropriately...)

The point is, you're arguing against what you currently see as shariah. Fine, I won't argue with you. I'm saying that this isn't what shariah is supposed to be and there are many Muslims who are trying to educate the masses in this. But until this becomes widespread, non-Muslims won't be convinced.
 
xris
 
Reply Sat 8 May, 2010 11:20 am
@josh0335,
josh0335;161773 wrote:
This was answered by:

This was answered by:

This was answered by:

This doesn't require an answer, as no system is ideal for everyone.

The Egyptian 'government' is not a government. I've already told you it is a dictatorship, in power from corruption and violence, purely because it is a key US ally. Shariah would treat Muslims and non-Muslims as equals. So if you wanted to kiss another man in public, you would be free to do so. But true shariah would also acknowledge differences in culture between different people, and would not pass such a silly law or prohibit such affection in public (provided you don't start making out with your wife inappropriately...)

The point is, you're arguing against what you currently see as shariah. Fine, I won't argue with you. I'm saying that this isn't what shariah is supposed to be and there are many Muslims who are trying to educate the masses in this. But until this becomes widespread, non-Muslims won't be convinced.
So you admit you dont want democracy as we in west see democracy and you also oppose democracy in turkey for the same reasons. You dont want a secular society, you want it ruled by sharia and you are not convinced it can be moderated. Is that a fare comment?
 
josh0335
 
Reply Sat 8 May, 2010 11:56 am
@xris,
xris;161784 wrote:
So you admit you dont want democracy as we in west see democracy and you also oppose democracy in turkey for the same reasons. You dont want a secular society, you want it ruled by sharia and you are not convinced it can be moderated. Is that a fare comment?


I admit that secular democracy is not what Muslim countries would ideally want. I oppose Turkish democracy for this reason. I would like to see shariah govern Muslim lands and am fully convinced it can be moderated. That is a fair comment.
 
xris
 
Reply Sat 8 May, 2010 12:08 pm
@josh0335,
josh0335;161797 wrote:
I admit that secular democracy is not what Muslim countries would ideally want. I oppose Turkish democracy for this reason. I would like to see shariah govern Muslim lands and am fully convinced it can be moderated. That is a fair comment.
It is a comment that is honest , at last. Can you see why I would oppose that view?
 
 

 
Copyright © 2020 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.02 seconds on 04/03/2020 at 11:24:12