Senior cleric declares Fatwa on terrorism

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jeeprs
 
Reply Wed 3 Mar, 2010 10:43 pm
A new fatwa from the renowned authority of Islamic world, Shaykh-ul-IslamDr Muhammad Tahir-ul-Qadri, a spiritual leader of the overwhelming majority of Muslims, deals a devastating blow to al-Qaeda and its affiliates by removing decisively any remnant of theological justifications for terrorism. No longer can the Taleban and similar organisations employ Muslim scripture with impunity to advance the onslaught of civilians, be they non-Muslim or Muslim.

TERRORIST ACTS EXPEL A MUSLIM FROM ISLAM

While most Muslim scholars denounce terrorism, Shaykh-ul-Islam Dr Muhammad Tahir-ul-Qadri goes that crucial step forward and announces categorically that suicide bombings and attacks against civilian targets are not only condemned by Islam, but render the perpetrators totally out of the fold of Islam, to become unbelievers in the divine, pristine message of Islam. This empowering, unprecedented fatwa strengthens troops and civil society bodies that are engaged in counter terrorism operations, and expels terrorists from within Islam.Source
 
metacristi
 
Reply Wed 31 Mar, 2010 06:33 am
@jeeprs,
Jeeprs the fatwa is certainly an important step ahead but past evidence (the widespread use of Taqqyia by muslims apologists in the West included) shows clearly that we should never renounce deep skepticism when dealing with a minimally reformed islam (the fatwa does not really exclude the islamization of the West later via a 'small steps' strategy). Now many rushed to claim that this fatwa does not leave place for loopholes but unfortunately it does not seem to be so, indeed terrorism and suicidal terrorism appear as natural extensions of Jihad=holy war (see also this), the 'fundamentalist' interpretation is much more elegant and straightforward from a logical point of view. Let's be honest we deal with the same tortuous mental gymnastics, characteristic to some muslims in the West, used in order to show that islam is 'peace' (it isn't, there is no peaceful 'real' islam); a fatwa that begins with the claim that islam has given the same rights to non-muslims and muslims cannot be taken too seriously...at least by non-muslims (I'd say that the fatwa is rather geared to prevent the killing of muslims by other muslims). The only real way out of the current situation is a non-trivial reform of islam which to prevent future generations of Muslims be confused by conflicting messages; otherwise Jihad=the holy war, the dream of a world caliphate and other islamic tenets will be with us for a long time from now on...

Definition of a (real) Moderate Muslim
Islamic Scholar's "Islam is Peace" Fatwa Undone | Loganswarning
Games muslims play and The Myths of islam - refute the most common myths propagated by muslims that islam is 'peace' (some muslims are well intended and honest in their beliefs, unfortunately unaware of the real nature of their religion)
Why I Left Islam - Testimonies
Is the Qur'an Hate Propaganda?
YouTube - Islam for dummies 101 Jew Hatred
 
jeeprs
 
Reply Wed 31 Mar, 2010 02:56 pm
@jeeprs,
I remember thinking after the Munich Olympic massacre - I was 17 and profoundly horrified by what happened - 'Hatred does this. Hatred is what drives it. The only way I can contribute to the abatement of this condition is by not hating.' And in the world as it is today, this can be a real challenge.

I completely agree that Islam must be reformed. I hope that it is possible and that reason can prevail, but I am not under any illusions as to how difficult that will be.
 
trismegisto
 
Reply Wed 31 Mar, 2010 07:23 pm
@metacristi,
metacristi;146609 wrote:
Jeeprs the fatwa is certainly an important step ahead but past evidence (the widespread use of Taqqyia by muslims apologists in the West included) shows clearly that we should never renounce deep skepticism when dealing with a minimally reformed islam (the fatwa does not really exclude the islamization of the West later via a 'small steps' strategy). Now many rushed to claim that this fatwa does not leave place for loopholes but unfortunately it does not seem to be so, indeed terrorism and suicidal terrorism appear as natural extensions of Jihad=holy war (see also this), the 'fundamentalist' interpretation is much more elegant and straightforward from a logical point of view. Let's be honest we deal with the same tortuous mental gymnastics, characteristic to some muslims in the West, used in order to show that islam is 'peace' (it isn't, there is no peaceful 'real' islam); a fatwa that begins with the claim that islam has given the same rights to non-muslims and muslims cannot be taken too seriously...at least by non-muslims (I'd say that the fatwa is rather geared to prevent the killing of muslims by other muslims). The only real way out of the current situation is a non-trivial reform of islam which to prevent future generations of Muslims be confused by conflicting messages; otherwise Jihad=the holy war, the dream of a world caliphate and other islamic tenets will be with us for a long time from now on...

Definition of a (real) Moderate Muslim
Islamic Scholar's "Islam is Peace" Fatwa Undone | Loganswarning
Games muslims play and The Myths of islam - refute the most common myths propagated by muslims that islam is 'peace' (some muslims are well intended and honest in their beliefs, unfortunately unaware of the real nature of their religion)
Why I Left Islam - Testimonies
Is the Qur'an Hate Propaganda?
YouTube - Islam for dummies 101 Jew Hatred



This is a very bigoted worldview. I hope you evolve beyond it.
 
metacristi
 
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2010 04:43 am
@trismegisto,
Yes. Telling the Truth about islam is invariably 'orientalism', 'islamophobia', 'bigotry' and, even worse, 'racism' (although islam is not a race) these days. Only that I am not so bad as you believe, I even have very solid and reasonable, rational, arguments for my view (for those who want to understand them of course, no one can be made rational by force). And I definitely believe in unity in diversity; only that not 'anything goes', the unreformed islam certainly doesn't.

The obvious truth is that islam is a strongly missionizing religion, well beyond others. It's not about preaching but of the fact that islam is the only major religion having a political program (based on sharia, compulsory to implement in practice for all believers, sooner or later; in islam there is no real separation between State and Religion) and is inherently expansionist. Crucially the vast majority of muslims is quasi-literalist, taking too seriously what the islamic traditions say (even if they may 'forget' at some moment in time about some aspects of sharia a return to the very dogmatic past is always an important possibility). It's true now that only some muslims are 'offended' by the mere existence of societies guided by non-islamic laws (the so called radicals*) but this does not mean that the rest renounced at the dream to implement worldwide large parts of political islam (in fact few muslims are moderates according with western standards).

Given better cicumstances, for example a sizeable number of muslims in non-muslim lands or a revived islamdom, many of the so called 'moderates' now (of whom quite many do not really understand their own religion) will show openly what they hide/are unaware at this time, killing in the process all real diversity. islam (history show this plenty) is a threat for all cultures in its reach. Some non-muslims may be indeed intolerant etc but nothing can cover the fact that islam is not like the other major religions and should, thus, be kept under a close scrutiny (at least allowing open criticism of islam at the academic level is a necessity of this time)...Muslims deserve the same respect as all human beings, in accordance with modern standards (the vast majority of non-muslims is in no way against people by the way), but the ideology of islam (having many in common with Mafia clan solidarity and Nazi supremacism) is placed outside all reasonable standards and fully deserve the strongest criticism possible.

The best alternative at our disposal in my view (avoiding discriminatory measures like forbidding muslim immigration, deporting muslims etc), which could possible even provoke the necessary shock in the countries dominated by islam, were simply to openly tell the truth about islam (at an academic level); telling the truth about islam and rejecting the incessant and unreasonable demands of muslims may be 'offensive' for them at the beginning (truth hurt sometimes) but they are by no means discriminatory. The days when the rational criticism of islam is treated at least as 'controversial literature' (if not worse) should end as soon as possible (unfortunately there is no peaceful 'true islam' but only a bellicose islam which should be reformed in non-trivial ways by muslims themselves).

That would certainly lower the danger posed by political islam in the non-muslim world (by creating much more real muslim moderates; even in the worst scenario that muslims become majoritary in non-muslim countries via demography there will be no sharia, discrimination of minorities, despise for freedom of expression and critical thinking etc) and would at least send a clear message to the countries where islam is majoritary that non-muslims can no more tolerate the intolerance of islam (and its 'turbans of the mind'). Postmodernist approaches are very likely to end in failure for they fail to see that islam is not like the other major religions; no reasonable concession will ever be enough with the unreformed islam (the islam of the last 1400 years or minimally reformed versions).


Ibn Warraq - Islam and Intellectual Terrorism | New Humanist
Skeptic's Annotated Quran
http://civilusdefendus.wordpress.com/2010/01/10/4-stages-of-islamic-conquest/
Bill Warner's Lectures on islam (audio)
The Religion of 'Peace' - islam in a nutshell: the religion of war, terror, hatred, and discrimination
islam should prove it's a religion of peace
Why the West is best - Fully agree. It's not how postmodernists claim, actually we can make a clear cut distinction between different cultures and systems of thought (the West being clearly above others, although by no means the 'end of history', the most rational possible). There is surely something wrong with the postmodernist approach that all cultures are roughly equal (past colonialism is no real justification), the practice of life proves that rejecting/ignoring/downplaying many western values cannot help create a better world (the good thing is that in many cases ignoring them is impossible, for example Gandhi thought that many western values can be safely rejected but as far as I can see India still have to use them intensively)...On the other hand the western system of values is far from being above strong (and fully deserved) rational criticism. No honest thinker would ever deny this. Happily what really counts is that the western civilization has the necessary feedback mechanisms which to lead to improvements eventually, even if this imply non-trivial changes (something absent in many other cultures, islam included)...The 'decadent' West is way superior to islam for it preserves intact the hope of a better world, something impossible to be achieved in a society where diversity and the freedoms of thought and expression are despised; the fact that quite many very religious muslims in the West seem to be 'nice guys' does not make the islamic 'solution' (based primarily on very strong dogmatism, inhumane punishments + paroxistic fear and leading inevitably to a much narrower intellectual horizon) even remotely as rational as a free world where justice is justice and perpetrators are exemplarily punished (in accordance with modern values) so that crime to be discouraged.
Sam Harris on the Reality of Islam
Why Shariah Must Be Opposed
ibn Warraq - Why has there not been a similar process of secularization in the Islamic world as in the West?
ibn Warraq - Is Islam Compatible With Democracy and Human Rights? part 1
ibn Warraq - Is Islam Compatible With Democracy and Human Rights? part 2
The Terrifying Brilliance of the Islamic Memeplex - Unfortunately in islam there is not even place to entertain the thought that a single word of the qur'an is not from allah (in Christianity and Judaism there is much more space for fallibilism and symbolic interpretation, in fact this is the main factor of why they have so many moderates)...Sadly this means that as much as the qur'an will still be seen as the eternal and exact word of allah there is little hope for a real, lasting, modernization of islam. Now some say "look, there are muslims in the West who demonstrate against the radicals*, some imams are progressists (their teachings contradict some minor parts of sharia) etc. This is certainly a sign of moderation and a strong hint that islam will never be a threat for the western civilization".

Well, while I'm not at all sure that some minor departures from the islamic doctrine (as in the above examples) can really entitle us to label a muslim 'moderate' (in the western interpretation of this term), I will contend that there are some real muslim moderates. The problem is however that they are so few (far from the 'critical mass' necessary for a non trivial modernization; the vast majority of muslims can be safely labeled 'quasi-literalist') and the 'special mechanisms' of islam against the possibility of non trivial change so many (the incapacity of many muslims to apply critical thinking to the basis of islam is a direct consequence of this) that the claim that the qur'an is the eternal and exact world of allah will always be enough to bring, sooner or later, the orthodox interpretations back 'in power' (for example the successors of those progressive imams are much more likely to be dogmatics, even radicals; when muslims become sizeable in a non-muslim land all progressive steps done under the influence of the host nation are very likely to be lost in favor of political islam: at that time there will be no reasons to continue with the mental gymnastics that the 'real' islam is egalitarian etc; a few persuasive ullama could easily convince - based on reason, beginning from some initial common beliefs - many muslims that the 'fundamentalist' interpretation of the qur'an is the right one, the eternal and exact word of allah etc).

The current situation makes very improbable the possibility that the islamic world (muslims in the West included) could break the 'barrier of potential' given by the doctrines of the islam from the last 1400 years, towards a real muslim Enlightenment (of maximum concern is the mandatory duty to implement the political part of islam worldwide). The small progressive steps never accumulate in sufficient number to permit an evolution beyond that 'barrier of potential' (concerning the 'hardcore' of islamic tenets). Finally the lessons of the history shows us clearly that all cultures within the reach of [unreformed] islam are in danger (especially if they tolerate it as it is). Sooner or later they will be forced to fight, no reasonable concession will ever be enough with the islam of the last 1400 years. The only real alternative is to tell the truth about islam and force muslims themselves, via Rationality, to modernize their religion (in non-trivial ways).


Dispatches - Undercover Mosque - the deceit of non-muslims (Taqiyya) is evident; unfortunately even the so called 'classical islam' is not too far from wahhabism (which is by the way closer to the islam taught by the qur'an and lived by muhammad), as ibn Warraq put it well: "But intellectual honesty demands that we reject just such dishonest tinkering with the Koran's text [of liberals claiming that islam is egalitarian, feminist, fully compatible with democracy etc] which, while it may be open to some re-interpretation, is not infinitely elastic. The truth is there is no real difference between Islam and Islamic fundamentalism - at most there is a difference of degree, but not of kind." Merely rejecting the extreme methods of the radicals (and even violence) does not make one automatically a real moderate (as much as the bulk of political islam is retained, with the islamization of non-muslim societies, be it only partial, postponed for a time when the social context will permit it). 'Stealth jihad' is as dangeorus as an open jihad (terrorism, revolutions and wars of conquest now).

YouTube - Muslim Cleric: How to Lie about Islam - What to say? islam the 'panacea universalis' for all the problems facing the modern world...laughable. The problem is of course that dogma, fear and (many) lies are never a real solution...even if islam were really the best solution for the whole humankind (but Rationality points that it isn't...real diversity is) that wouldn't entitle muslims to use Taqyya strategies or to impose islam to the whole world. 'Love with force' is never a real solution (I'm afraid islam is one of the best examples one can find of 'tyrannical love')...


Hate Speech? - indeed why not reverse the words of the qur'an if it promotes 'peace' and equality (for it has no monopoly on Truth and the 'mantra' of muslim apologetics 'you are quoting out of context' is an obvious red herring)...


*these guys (the radicals) are 'offended' by the mere existence of societies governed by natural law instead of sharia and feel obliged to end the period of alleged 'ignorance' as soon as possible using the model and means 'patented' by muhammad himself: via force using whatever methods available, no matter how savage (all non-muslims who have not submitted to muslim rule are not innocent during jihad). Of course, as in the case of muhammad, all is done in self defence against the 'opressors' of islam (who do not recognize muhammad and muslim rule, the real pretext is that their mere existence is 'offensive'), and in the interest of world peace...


Although muslims resident in non-muslim countries clamour for every kind of indulgence for their own beliefs and customs, there can be no doubt that given any kind of power they would impose their own beliefs and eliminate all difference. In short, as ibn Warraq describes it in his Dedication, islam is religious fascism, and it is only a feeble-minded political correctness that prevents it from being recognised as such. - ibn al-Rawandi

The real problem with islam is not the existence of some muslim 'hate preachers' but the qur'an itself.

"I wonder how many Muslims secretly suspect that the problem is not that others do not respect them, it is that their own texts and traditions do not allow them to respect others. I'm sure there are some."
 
trismegisto
 
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2010 03:12 pm
@metacristi,
metacristi;147021 wrote:
Yes. Telling the Truth about islam is invariably 'orientalism', 'islamophobia', 'bigotry' and, even worse, 'racism' (although islam is not a race) these days.


There is a huge difference between "telling the truth about Islam" and your particular brand of ignorance. I shall attempt to enlighten you.
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metacristi;147021 wrote:
The obvious truth is that islam is a strongly missionizing religion, well beyond others.


Here is your first error. Christianity is the missionizing religion par excellence. In fact, most Islamic empires have a much greater history of religious tolerence. No religion, to date, has murdered more indigenous peoples in the name of saving their souls than Christianity. You will be hard[pressed to find a credible historian to say the contrary.


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metacristi;147021 wrote:
It's not about preaching but of the fact that islam is the only major religion having a political program (based on sharia, compulsory to implement in practice for all believers, sooner or later; in islam there is no real separation between State and Religion) and is inherently expansionist.


Actually, Judaism has no separation of church and state either, while political leaders may have no clerical role they are forbidden from breaking the covenent.

The fact that Islam contains a religious political system means nothing excpet to enhance your own bigotry.


[/COLOR]
metacristi;147021 wrote:
Crucially the vast majority of muslims is quasi-literalist, taking too seriously what the islamic traditions say (even if they may 'forget' at some moment in time about some aspects of sharia a return to the very dogmatic past is always an important possibility).


You do realize that up until 1859 the entire Western World believed that the world was only 4000 years old and were willing to kill those who thought differently, right?

The fact that the vast majority of Muslims are literalists is the reason that there are so few Islamic terrorists. Had the majority of Muslims disregarded the Higher Jihad and simply practiced the Lower Jihad, every western country in the world would be under sharia law now.

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metacristi;147021 wrote:
It's true now that only some muslims are 'offended' by the mere existence of societies guided by non-islamic laws (the so called radicals*) but this does not mean that the rest renounced at the dream to implement worldwide large parts of political islam (in fact few muslims are moderates according with western standards).


Why do I get the feeling that you watch Foxnews, er, I mean FAUXNews.
This is pure ignorance. Why would Islam have guidelines for living amongst infidels if they were intolerent of non-islamic societies? I would challenge you to provide one single academic specializing in Islam that could corroborate your bigotry. You are clearly misinformed and have never even read a single passage of the Koran.

metacristi;147021 wrote:
Given better cicumstances, for example a sizeable number of muslims in non-muslim lands or a revived islamdom, many of the so called 'moderates' now (of whom quite many do not really understand their own religion) will show openly what they hide/are unaware at this time, killing in the process all real diversity.


You just get more and more delusional the longer you rant. Have you ever heard of a country called Saudi Arabia? They practice a type of Islam called Wahhabism. This is the most conservative, anti-reform interpretation ever. Its like the tea-bagger movement in Islam.

These guys are our buddies in the Arab World. You may not know this but you are just embarrassing yourself by posting this type of crap.


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metacristi;147021 wrote:
islam (history show this plenty) is a threat for all cultures in its reach. Some non-muslims may be indeed intolerant etc but nothing can cover the fact that islam is not like the other major religions and should, thus, be kept under a close scrutiny (at least allowing open criticism of islam at the academic level is a necessity of this time)


It is very hard for me to hide my contempt for you. I cannot stress how ignorant you are on these topics. For example, when the Potato Famine occurred in Ireland the Ottoman Caliphate offered to send 15 tonnes Sterling in relief aid, but the Queen of England asked that he only send 1 tonne as she had only sent 2. So he sent one tonne but secretly sent three giant cargo ships full of food. Engand attempted to blockade this relief.

I am terribly sorry to have to say this too you but you are an idiot. I usually don't like to get so personal in these types of forums but the fear, ignorance, hatred, and bigotry that you try to politely peddle here offends me to know end.



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metacristi;147021 wrote:
...Muslims deserve the same respect as all human beings,


This is where you should have shut your mouth.

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metacristi;147021 wrote:
in accordance with modern standards (the vast majority of non-muslims is in no way against people by the way), but the ideology of islam (having many in common with Mafia clan solidarity and Nazi supremacism) is placed outside all reasonable standards and fully deserve the strongest criticism possible.


IDIOT
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The rest of your post is pure HATE and FEAR.

You are a disgrace to this forum and should have your posting privileges revoked. It is people like you that caused 9/11. You are an ignorant sub-human, and if it was possible to euthenize folks based on their intelligence you would not exist on this planet.


I WOULD LIKE TO PERSONALLY APOLOGIZE TO THIS FORUM FOR THIS INDIVIDUALS INEXCUSABLE IDEOLOGY AND THE CONTEMPT AND DISRESPECT IT HAS CAUSED ME TO EXPRESS.

THIS TYPE OF FORUM FOR THE ADVANCEMENT OF KNOWLEDGE DESERVES BETTER THAN THIS MORON.
 
metacristi
 
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2010 04:35 pm
@jeeprs,
Are you a muslim? If so (you seem the type, I've debated enough many fanatics who accused me of being 'lunatic' etc) I partially understand your ad hominems, as Ali Sina put it well 'muslims are genuinely incapable of questioning islam' (but I really doubt that you really understood what I wrote). Anyway muslim or not it's time to know that ad hominems will never win you arguments. No point to continue a discussion with you.

Ibn Warraq on How to Debate a Muslim - muslims capable of argumentation of course

"Muslims [have] a curious tendency to believe that non-Muslims either know that Islam is the truth and reject it out of pure obstinacy, or else are simply ignorant of it and can be converted by elementary explanations; that anyone should be able to oppose Islam with a good conscience quite exceeds the Muslim's power of imagination, precisely because Islam coincides in his mind with the irresistible logic of things." There is no question here of according opposing views any respect. - ibn Warraq (partially quoting Frithjof Schuon)
 
Pepijn Sweep
 
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2010 04:43 pm
@metacristi,
Head cleric advices on Terrorism. President follows by sending extra Troops in War on Terrorism.:rolleyes:
 
metacristi
 
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2010 07:30 pm
@Pepijn Sweep,
Pepijn Sweep;147214 wrote:
Head cleric advices on Terrorism. President follows by sending extra Troops in War on Terrorism.:rolleyes:


It's clear that the radicals will never accept the fatwa (actually they really have a solid justification in the islamic traditions themselves). Let's hope however that the attempt to put basically the equal sign between the radicals of today and the Kharijites of the past will at least reduce the support for terrorism among muslims...Does now a great success of the fatwa really solve the problem of islam for non-muslims? Hardly, as much as islam is not receded to the level of the individual and secularism is not accepted (only this can make islam really compatible with democracy, pluralism, freedom of expression and critical thinking). That's why, among others things, Christianity is fully compatible with democracy (even Judaism at limit) but islam is not. The problem is that a real democracy implies, in the case of islamic societies, giving up basically the whole of sharia, promote critical thinking applied to the base of religion, and determine its citizens, in a vast majority quasi-literalist, to forget somehow forever about the divine nature of the qur'an in many crucial parts. Not something easy to do.

Now I do not claim that islamic societies are totally incompatible with secularism (but this is clearly in spite of islam: some countries in the Middle East are indeed partially secularist, this is primarily due to the legacy of colonialism and the current western influence than to factors internal to muslim societies and islam; nothing assure that the slow process of secularization will continue or even maintain at the same level). At limit, as in the case of Turkey (unique so far and favoured by very special conditions), secularism and even democracy, at least close to the western type, can become a fact (although a return to islamism will ever be an important possibility) but the problem is that this is far from being something easy to do (given the extremely dogmatic nature of islamic memeplex) and it does not appear probable in the light of historical evidence we have now (as much as islam remains unreformed). Even less should we expect the religious muslims in the West to resist the temptation to replace democracy with (at least) large parts of sharia if they will ever be in measure to 'take over' (I'd say that partial islamization is unavoidable if islam remains not reformed in non-trivial ways, the Middle East of today will move to the West, possible even in America).

Islam Is Incompatible With Diversity | Culture Wars - good article overall in spite of some inaccuracies (under Byzantines for example the religious diversity of the Middle-East was rather a fact of the past, seriously weaken anyway) which cannot dilute though the message that the unreformed islam cannot really be a multicultural (or 'melting pot') factor (of course there are many problems with multiculturalism in practice but is clearly better to have some orthodox jews who prefer to stay apart than muslims who not only do the same, this time in a vast majority, but are also plotting to replace the law of the land with sharia)
 
trismegisto
 
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2010 07:57 pm
@metacristi,
metacristi;147211 wrote:
Are you a muslim? If so (you seem the type, I've debated enough many fanatics who accused me of being 'lunatic' etc) I partially understand your ad hominems, as Ali Sina put it well 'muslims are genuinely incapable of questioning islam' (but I really doubt that you really understood what I wrote). Anyway muslim or not it's time to know that ad hominems will never win you arguments. No point to continue a discussion with you.


We are not having a discussion here, I am apologizing to everyone in this forum for YOUR fear, ignorance, and bigotry.

That is all!

You are simply an ignorant fear monger.
 
metacristi
 
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2010 08:03 pm
@trismegisto,
trismegisto;147292 wrote:
We are not having a discussion here, I am apologizing to everyone in this forum for YOUR fear, ignorance, and bigotry.

That is all!

You are simply an ignorant fear monger.


What discussion? Have you ever been able to have a discussion? At least stop posting, you are making a fool of yourself.
 
trismegisto
 
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2010 08:11 pm
@metacristi,
metacristi;147296 wrote:
What discussion? Have you ever been able to have a discussion? At least stop posting, you are making a fool of yourself.


You are completely out of touch with reality. And as long as you continue to spread your fear and ignorance I will be right here behind you apologizing to this forum for your bigotry.

Now, if you want to put aside your fears and actually take a moment to learn something I would be happy to have a normal discussion with you. However, I have little faith that you are anything more than the pure bigotry you spread.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2010 08:17 pm
@trismegisto,
trismegisto;147292 wrote:
We are not having a discussion here, I am apologizing to everyone in this forum for YOUR fear, ignorance, and bigotry.

That is all!

You are simply an ignorant fear monger.


Of course you have just illustrated what Metacristi has been pointing out about argumentation by Muslims.
 
metacristi
 
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2010 08:18 pm
@jeeprs,
Quote:
You are completely out of touch with reality. And as long as you continue to spread your fear and ignorance I will be right here behind you apologizing to this forum for your bigotry.

Now, if you want to put aside your fears and actually take a moment to learn something I would be happy to have a normal discussion with you. However, I have little faith that you are anything more than the pure bigotry you spread.


Do whatever you wish my friend. Only that continuing on the same lines won't make your discourse rational.
 
trismegisto
 
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2010 08:26 pm
@metacristi,
metacristi;147313 wrote:
Do whatever you wish my friend. Only that continuing on the same lines won't make your discourse rational.



Good, then we are in agreement. When you post fear and ignorance I will address your bigotry and apologize for your lunacy.

Well, at least you are polite for being delusional. I hope you do try to get a little education on these topics. it will save you from so much future embarrassment, whether you are aware of it or not.
 
metacristi
 
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2010 08:39 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;147311 wrote:
Of course you have just illustrated what Metacristi has been pointing out about argumentation by Muslims.


Thanks Ken. Usually I am very respectful with people's beliefs but I'm afraid in the case of islam we have to make an exception and act NOW no matter that muslims (who never really proved to be able to apply critical thinking to the basis of islam) are 'offended'. Later it may be too late, I'm afraid that a real muslim Enlightenment, without external help, is not much more probable than the spontaneous generation.
 
trismegisto
 
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2010 11:04 pm
@metacristi,
metacristi;147324 wrote:
Thanks Ken. Usually I am very respectful with people's beliefs but I'm afraid in the case of islam we have to make an exception and act NOW no matter that muslims (who never really proved to be able to apply critical thinking to the basis of islam) are 'offended'. Later it may be too late, I'm afraid that a real muslim Enlightenment, without external help, is not much more probable than the spontaneous generation.


Oh this is gonna be rich. Please elaborate, I am sure everyone would like to know exactly what a mind like yours means when you say, "ACT now."
 
Jackofalltrades phil
 
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2010 11:53 pm
@jeeprs,
I am afraid........
1) no one has the authority to denounce other people's faith,
2) no one has the sole virtue of judging other's law of living or a way of life,
3) no one is capable of analysing in depth on how social movements and political motivations takes place.

Any one who claims he or she can do the above without prejudging or harbouring bias is a hypocrite.
 
metacristi
 
Reply Fri 2 Apr, 2010 03:13 am
@trismegisto,
trismegisto;147409 wrote:
Oh this is gonna be rich. Please elaborate, I am sure everyone would like to know exactly what a mind like yours means when you say, "ACT now."


It's time to say the truth, using Reason and arguments, about islam and its 'turbans of the mind'. Time to say no to postmodernist tolerance of the intolerant islam before islamization become a mass problem, before a time when any novel idea (especially contradicting the qur'an) is likely to be branded 'blasphemous', its proponets punishable by death/prison/lashes etc (one of the reasons the muslim world remained backward is the despise of critical thinking and diversity). Arguments and critical thinking do not kill. I would say that your problem (and many other muslims by no means radical) is rather that you are 'offended' by the mere existence of important rational criticism of islam. You are not really interested in having a real discussion you are interested in proving you right using all means available. In doing so you can only confirm that islam hardly have real moderates; many of the called muslims moderates are, for various reasons (ignorance of their own religion included), merely 'not immoderate', prone to a rapid transition toward much more dogmatic views (upon the style I have all reasons to believe you're a muslim).


The term "Islamic fundamentalist" is in itself inappropriate, for there is a vast difference between Christianity and Islam. Most Christians have moved away from the literal interpretation of the Bible; for most of them "It ain't necessarily so". Thus we legitimately distinguish between fundamentalist and nonfundamentalist Christians. But Muslims have not moved away from the literal interpretation of the Koran: all Muslims - not just a group we called "fundamentalist" - believe that the Koran is literally the word of God...Many Christians have accepted the results of Science and adjusted their beliefs accordingly and are no longer committed to the literal existence of their biblical parents [Adam and Eve]. Muslims have yet to take even this first step. - ibn Warraq

Islam presents an absolutist political agenda one that doesn't lend itself to compromise, nor to coalition building. - imam Zaid Shakir, an African American convert to Islam (saying the truth about islam, indeed we mistake islam with other major religions) - islam aims at total control (the intrinsic 'political agenda' does not exist in other major religions) in order to protect itself against the possbility of being replaced with something better (via its many quasi-literalist supporters of course)...yes we know (so it was 'constructed' by muhammad) islam came to rule and destroy all opposition using all means available (democracy & multiculturalism included before 'taking over'). Only that it won't be as islamists want. In fact the outcome can be only one: if islam remains unreformed and bellicose as it is today it will be crushed as Nazism before, muslim supremacism & The Third Jihad (including the 'stealth' jihad, that fought using Fabian methods: 'electronic' Jihad to mislead, 'legal' Jihad to intimidate etc) have no future. The real period of ignorance is the islamic period.

Our opponents accuse us National Socialists, and me in particular, of being intolerant and quarrelsome. They say that we do not want to work with other parties...I have to admit one thing, these gentlemen are quite right. We are intolerant...I have given myself one goal - to sweep these thirty political parties [existent in 1932] out of Germany. They mistake us for one of them. We have one aim and we will follow it fanatically and ruthlessly to the grave. - Adolf Hitler, electoral campaign 1932 - islam has definitely quite many in common with Nazi supremacism and fanaticism (among others dhimmis remind of the Nazis' 'subhumans of the East', the attacks of muhammad and his successors outside Arabia of the need for vital space, the fact that non mulims in the arab empires of the past had to wear distinctive signs of the persecution of the jews, the strong indoctrination of children with muslim supremacism of Hitlerjugend and so on)

Myth: If Islam were a violent religion, then all Muslims would be violent



Jackofalltrades;147420 wrote:
I am afraid........

Jackofalltrades;147420 wrote:


1) no one has the authority to denounce other people's faith,

2) no one has the sole virtue of judging other's law of living or a way of life,

3) no one is capable of analysing in depth on how social movements and political motivations takes place.





Any one who claims he or she can do the above without prejudging or harbouring bias is a hypocrite.





When muslims impose sharia, or at least part of it, will you say the same? No intention to be offensive here but it's a legitimate question...Besides we have never forget that they have always felt free to attack Christianity and all other faiths at will (unlike other major religions islam does not have the Golden Rule, somehow muslims are at peace, at the mental level, with demanding respect from others while showing basically none in return)...Happily contrary to what you say there is a standard of Rationality, albeit provisional, the rationality or irrationality of the qur'an (and for that matter all other holy books) it's not in the 'eye of the beholder'. No one want muslims to leave islam (at least not me), the problem is that it should be modernized because it is a threat for the whole world, even for muslims (although it may seem good for islamists of course). We can only say NO to the 7th century sharia and other discriminatory and intolerant teachings of islam (hypocrites are those who try to whitewash islam, in spite of a mountain of contrary evidence, in the name of political correctness instead of calling for non-trivial reforms)...

Where are the Christian Suicide Bombers?

While the muslims feel free to insult Christianity, they themselves go into paroxysms of rage and violence at the slightest hint of criticism of islam, which "must be accepted uncritically as divine revelation by non-muslims as well by muslims, and that this must be reflected in the structure and conduct of the state, and of society". - ibn Warraq
 
Pepijn Sweep
 
Reply Fri 2 Apr, 2010 06:01 am
@metacristi,
Who cares ? Pope says the same; nobody listens.
 
 

 
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