Women and Islam

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xris
 
Reply Sat 24 Oct, 2009 08:25 am
@josh0335,
I appreciate your honest answer but as non muslim i find these laws unfair to a women. He has only to ask she has to insist. I find this authority to chastise a women by any physical force an excuse for violence.

Slaves could be forced to have sex with their masters as scriptures prescribed. I'm not that concerned, the the majority of muslims would not dream of beating their wives or obtain slaves to have sex with. Its the idea that certain wives are obstructed by sharia in the true act of divorce. You like I must be concerned at the disadvantages your system imposes on women, surely.
 
josh0335
 
Reply Sat 24 Oct, 2009 11:58 am
@xris,
xris;99594 wrote:
I appreciate your honest answer but as non muslim i find these laws unfair to a women. He has only to ask she has to insist. I find this authority to chastise a women by any physical force an excuse for violence.



But is it not unfair in your eyes that the man must pay a dowry to marry? Or he must work to feed his family, even if his wife works and earns more than he does? Or that he must answer the call to war but the woman doesn't? Or he must go to the mosque five times a day, rain or shine to pray in congeregation whereas the woman can pray at home? My point is, why don't you complain about the 'unfairness' of Islam towards men?

Quote:
Slaves could be forced to have sex with their masters as scriptures prescribed.


Please show me where the scriptures say this?

Quote:
I'm not that concerned, the the majority of muslims would not dream of beating their wives or obtain slaves to have sex with. Its the idea that certain wives are obstructed by sharia in the true act of divorce. You like I must be concerned at the disadvantages your system imposes on women, surely.


The shariah does not obstruct women the true act of divorce, it merely requires her to take a longer route than the man.

If you analyse the application of these laws, realistically a man would not deny his wife a divorce if she wants one - what man would want to force his wife to stay if she's unhappy? It would rarely go to court. If a woman has to go to court, it would usually mean the man is being unreasonable, and so in most cases the courts would order the divorce if all efforts have been made to save the marriage. What this system does do is it stops any women who wish to take advantage of the dowry system.

So I do not believe this is a real disadvantage to women. As mentioned earlier, you have to analyse these laws along with the whole system arranged by Islam.
 
xris
 
Reply Sat 24 Oct, 2009 12:34 pm
@josh0335,
If the dowry has been abused then sharia should oppose the divorce or request the dowry be returned. Likewise the women should have the same rights as her husband. Two errors does not make a just law.

Im not prepared to refer to scriptures as there is no independent means of evaluating the truth. I only know that there are claims that your Prophet, allowed this abuse of slave women. I have observed it as true and acceptable by Muslim clerics on a certain forum.
 
josh0335
 
Reply Sat 24 Oct, 2009 02:20 pm
@xris,
xris;99638 wrote:
If the dowry has been abused then sharia should oppose the divorce or request the dowry be returned. Likewise the women should have the same rights as her husband. Two errors does not make a just law.


Which are two of the possible rulings of the court.

No, if you have a dowry system then you leave the door open for people to abuse it, unless you have a deterrent. In this case, having to request a divorce from the court.

Quote:
Im not prepared to refer to scriptures as there is no independent means of evaluating the truth. I only know that there are claims that your Prophet, allowed this abuse of slave women. I have observed it as true and acceptable by Muslim clerics on a certain forum.


Nowhere in Islamic scriptures does it say a slave master may force his slave to sex.
 
Aedes
 
Reply Sat 24 Oct, 2009 08:06 pm
@xris,
xris;99571 wrote:
No im not talking about the extreme interpretation and not in Afghanistan, as that is an extreme example, just moderate countries such as Egypt. I am striving for you debate it on any level. You appear to not want to, for some strange reason.
You are failing to distinguish sharia as imposed by a family or a community from sharia as imposed by a national legal system. You are also failing to take into account similar circumstances of degradation and suffering in non-Muslim lands, which is important in order that you not arbitrarily attribute more widespread phenomena to certain local conditions. For instance literacy among women is terrible in much of the developing world, whether or not it's a Muslim land. Finally, you have not been willing or interested in looking into sharia as a law that is interpreted very differentially in different locations.
 
xris
 
Reply Sun 25 Oct, 2009 11:32 am
@Aedes,
Aedes;99687 wrote:
You are failing to distinguish sharia as imposed by a family or a community from sharia as imposed by a national legal system. You are also failing to take into account similar circumstances of degradation and suffering in non-Muslim lands, which is important in order that you not arbitrarily attribute more widespread phenomena to certain local conditions. For instance literacy among women is terrible in much of the developing world, whether or not it's a Muslim land. Finally, you have not been willing or interested in looking into sharia as a law that is interpreted very differentially in different locations.
This debate has never been about deprived women its been about muslim women. Sharia is sharia, a way of living prescribed by the prophet. In certain countries even when it is not part of the fabric of the written law its influence is still felt. It is detrimental to womens rights. Dress code is enforced and where a man can walk freely from a marriage it is made double difficult for women. Are you going to deny this? When it is part of the written law raped women can be classified as the guilty party because of the four witnesses reasoning.
 
Aedes
 
Reply Sun 25 Oct, 2009 12:09 pm
@ahmedjbh,
Xris -- you just don't get it. People do all sorts of terrible things and then back-rationalize it onto whatever belief system they come from. And sharia is NOT sharia -- its application differs widely in extent and scope throughout the Muslim world. I can't debate about sharia with you because you have such an oversimplified understanding of it that it's pointless.
 
xris
 
Reply Sun 25 Oct, 2009 01:44 pm
@Aedes,
Aedes;99734 wrote:
Xris -- you just don't get it. People do all sorts of terrible things and then back-rationalize it onto whatever belief system they come from. And sharia is NOT sharia -- its application differs widely in extent and scope throughout the Muslim world. I can't debate about sharia with you because you have such an oversimplified understanding of it that it's pointless.
I dont care if it is application differs, show me where the accepted reasoning does not give rise to women suffering. I have allowed you to discount the vast majority of examples, i could use and asked you to give me the best examples and you still refuse. How is it over simplifying, to give examples of its execution?
 
Aedes
 
Reply Sun 25 Oct, 2009 02:05 pm
@xris,
xris;99740 wrote:
How is it over simplifying, to give examples of its execution?
Because extrapolating from rhetorically cherrypicked extreme anecdotes is not representative.
 
xris
 
Reply Sun 25 Oct, 2009 02:12 pm
@Aedes,
Aedes;99747 wrote:
Because extrapolating from rhetorically cherrypicked extreme anecdotes is not representative.
I have given you the opportunity to exclude the so called cherries, they are not anecdotal they are facts that can be verified, if you choose to select any of them. I have not given you rhetoric, all require, no demand an answer that you appear unable or unwilling to respond to.
 
Aedes
 
Reply Sun 25 Oct, 2009 02:14 pm
@ahmedjbh,
Xris: go use the forum search function. I've been responding to your irrational muckraking about Muslims for the better part of a year. If you don't like my responses I honestly don't care. This thread is done -- it's not even about anything anymore.
 
 

 
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