Women and Islam

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Pangloss
 
Reply Mon 19 Oct, 2009 01:58 pm
@Caroline,
Caroline;98550 wrote:

My point is, again I repeat myself how does Islam regard women in Iran and Pakistan, is that clearer to you Aedes.


Now who's going off topic here Caroline? The subject of the thread is "Women and Islam", not "Women and Iran and Pakistan".

Drawing conclusions about the place of women in Islam based on how they live in just one of the many Islamic countries is just like drawing conclusions about Christianity based on how it is practiced solely in the US. You are trying to make some point about Women and Islam (the real topic of this thread), by drawing on an obviously biased sample and sending the topic off course.
 
ahmedjbh
 
Reply Mon 19 Oct, 2009 02:38 pm
@Caroline,
Caroline;98384 wrote:
Does the Koran specifically say that women should walk behind their husbands and if so why and what else does it say about womens positions within Islam?
Thanks and goodnight, will pick this thread back up in the morning.
Thank you
Caz.



In short, no, the Quran does not say that women have to walk behind men.
 
xris
 
Reply Mon 19 Oct, 2009 02:40 pm
@josh0335,
So the sharia you abide by is not true sharia, so why abide by its laws if they are insufficient in their management. I have said its the allowances that the Koran authorises that permits certain muslims to abuse its content. I can only go by the visible interpretations muslims use to execute the laws, to judge its value.

So why have more than one wife, what purpose does it serve? The benefits in bed well outweigh the troubles it may cause. Yes i am married , its not a platonic relationship, i do love her and i do desire her. Don't kid a kidder its the sexual satisfaction men harbour when they take a new wife and very many first wives object, so dont make out they dont. Answer my other question ,you avoided, why cant a women take more husbands ? You notice I avoided the story of Aisha.
 
josh0335
 
Reply Mon 19 Oct, 2009 02:54 pm
@xris,
xris;98566 wrote:
So the sharia you abide by is not true sharia, so why abide by its laws if they are insufficient in their management. I have said its the allowances that the Koran authorises that permits certain muslims to abuse its content. I can only go by the visible interpretations muslims use to execute the laws, to judge its value.

So why have more than one wife, what purpose does it serve? The benefits in bed well outweigh the troubles it may cause. Yes i am married , its not a platonic relationship, i do love her and i do desire her. Don't kid a kidder its the sexual satisfaction men harbour when they take a new wife and very many first wives object, so dont make out they dont. Answer my other question ,you avoided, why cant a women take more husbands ? You notice I avoided the story of Aisha.


How so? How is it not true shariah? It is your fault that the way you judge Islam is not by what it teaches, but what some of its flawed followers do.

I already told you why you would have more than one wife. It is a way of looking after women in society. Yes it can act as a way of sexual fantasies for someone who is very rich but for the average man it probably wouldn't. Could you afford another three wives?

There wouldn't be enough men for women to have four husbands. Secondly, the husband must provide for his wife and having multiple husbands would amount to waste. Thirdly, matters of paternity would create issues, as a woman would not know who her child belongs to. Also, this messes up the inheritance laws of Islam if a woman has multiple husbands.
 
xris
 
Reply Mon 19 Oct, 2009 03:04 pm
@josh0335,
josh0335;98572 wrote:
How so? How is it not true shariah? It is your fault that the way you judge Islam is not by what it teaches, but what some of its flawed followers do.

I already told you why you would have more than one wife. It is a way of looking after women in society. Yes it can act as a way of sexual fantasies for someone who is very rich but for the average man it probably wouldn't. Could you afford another three wives?

There wouldn't be enough men for women to have four husbands. Secondly, the husband must provide for his wife and having multiple husbands would amount to waste. Thirdly, matters of paternity would create issues, as a woman would not know who her child belongs to. Also, this messes up the inheritance laws of Islam if a woman has multiple husbands.
So its my fault that so many muslims interpret its laws in the wrong way, is it really?

You have not answered the question, why not be charitable and donate to a widows fund, you dont have to bed them.

So whats wrong with a rich women having four husbands and then having medical tests to find who the father is..simples ?
 
josh0335
 
Reply Mon 19 Oct, 2009 03:15 pm
@xris,
xris;98576 wrote:
So its my fault that so many muslims interpret its laws in the wrong way, is it really?

You have not answered the question, why not be charitable and donate to a widows fund, you dont have to bed them.

So whats wrong with a rich women having four husbands and then having medical tests to find who the father is..simples ?


No, Islam has nothing to do with you so it certainly is not your fault. The more pressing point is that you acknowledge that it is not the fault of Islam that some of its followers do not follow the teachings correctly.

Giving charity to a widow does not give her companionship (or fulfil a womans sexual needs) nor does it provide a father to her children. Single mothers have it very tough in any part of the world. If a woman does not feel like she needs a husband then she is under no obligation to marry and the state would indeed look after her.

A rich woman cannot have four husbands because it would be a waste of three men who could be looking after and providing for other women. Also, it would mess up the inheritance laws. Rich women would also be an exception, not the rule.
 
Arjuna
 
Reply Mon 19 Oct, 2009 03:19 pm
@josh0335,
josh0335;98555 wrote:
Almost every social ill in the Western world can be traced back to the breakdown of the family unit. So Islam is setup so the family unit is kept strong through each individual playing a certain role.

Yea, I think the issue of roles is significant here. The problem with rigid roles is that people can end up losing sight of the individual behind the role. In the west it became important to focus on individuality without regard for sex, wealth, religion, race... And yea, there's difficulties. The thing is: the western family unit didn't break down the way a car breaks down... it's in a state of flux. And at this point there's no going back. The old roles are gone. There's only going forward.

I know my world shaped my values. I know it would be ignorant for me to say that all humans should live the way I do. Obviously some of the emotion behind this topic is the big T: the Taliban. I don't expect those people to be like westerners, but the stories that came out of Afghanistan prior to UN forces entering just grieved me.
 
ahmedjbh
 
Reply Mon 19 Oct, 2009 04:04 pm
@ahmedjbh,
What I find interesting is how peoples underlying attitudes form hidden bias towards certain groups.

For example, within Christianity, women used to wear head scarfs to church, and modest clothing was the rule. I believe this is documented within their texts, and followed strictly by nuns, hence their uniform, which I have never heard anyone criticise.

When a muslim womens exactly the same outfit, they are oppressed, second class, etc etc.
 
Aedes
 
Reply Mon 19 Oct, 2009 04:27 pm
@xris,
xris;98566 wrote:
So the sharia you abide by is not true sharia
By analogy, look at the immense variation in adherence to Jewish law. Judaism is even more of a law-heavy religion than Islam. Orthodox Jews see law as an absolute obligation, Reform Jews do not see it as obligatory, and Conservative Jews are in the middle. Why shouldn't Islam also have a spectrum like this? Secular Muslim states like Turkey and Mali clearly see secular law as a higher obligation than Sharia.
 
Arjuna
 
Reply Mon 19 Oct, 2009 04:49 pm
@ahmedjbh,
ahmedjbh;98597 wrote:
What I find interesting is how peoples underlying attitudes form hidden bias towards certain groups.

For example, within Christianity, women used to wear head scarfs to church, and modest clothing was the rule. I believe this is documented within their texts, and followed strictly by nuns, hence their uniform, which I have never heard anyone criticise.

When a muslim womens exactly the same outfit, they are oppressed, second class, etc etc.

It's definitely true about underlying attitudes.

Paul advised that women who pray should cover their heads. I wonder if Islam has as much variance in interpretation as Christianity does. I think if you put 100 Christians in a room and ask them to explain what Paul meant, you could get 100 different answers... some of them objecting to significance being placed on Paul's words since he wasn't Jesus.

The hot issue in the Protestant world is "women in the ministry" which refers to women preachers. Among the things they point to in the Bible as their basis is Deborah: an Israelite judge. Jesus himself was known to take time to teach women. The famous saying "He who has not sinned, cast the first stone" comes from a story where Jesus saves a prostitute from stoning. Jesus isn't generally portrayed as sexist in the sense of seeing women as lower down on the cosmic scale. Although I'm sure, even on this point, some Christian will disagree.
 
Dave Allen
 
Reply Tue 20 Oct, 2009 03:04 am
@xris,
xris;98553 wrote:
So you would not call me a bigot on the evidence you have found that qualifies to call me one? O what webs we weave .. So you call it sexists having two as my opposed to saying four. Is this it, I qualify as a bigot because i claimed four instead of two...

I don't know why you always need things explained to you three or four times in a row before you grasp them.

I'll try one last time.

I didn't call you a bigot - on the other thread you complained that people were taking you for a bigot.

I tried explaining why.

I won't make the same mistake again, I assure you.
 
xris
 
Reply Tue 20 Oct, 2009 04:01 am
@Dave Allen,
I don't come from the position where i look for sharia laws, especially as they have no influence on me, and then try to find how it effects Muslims. I see the evidence of such things as the abuse of women's freedoms and ask what laws allows these abuses. If Islam has the public face in, many countries, that shows it has an abusive nature it must realise we will question its morals.

The same goes for any faith that openly displays a nasty side. Many here will know i dislike the RC churches attitude on contraception and the harm it does in Africa.

Jews have not come to my attention, in the way other faiths have, so i have no need to question their beliefs.
 
Aedes
 
Reply Tue 20 Oct, 2009 06:49 am
@xris,
xris;98712 wrote:
I don't come from the position where i look for sharia laws, especially as they have no influence on me, and then try to find how it effects Muslims. I see the evidence of such things as the abuse of women's freedoms and ask what laws allows these abuses....

Jews have not come to my attention, in the way other faiths have, so i have no need to question their beliefs.
The rigid laws followed by highly orthodox Jews can also be seen as abusive to women's freedoms. And I say this as a Jew with orthodox Jews in my own family. Part of the traditional Jewish wedding ceremony involves the bride circling around the groom seven times, which is a symbolic statement of obedience and deference.
 
xris
 
Reply Tue 20 Oct, 2009 11:28 am
@Aedes,
Aedes;98734 wrote:
The rigid laws followed by highly orthodox Jews can also be seen as abusive to women's freedoms. And I say this as a Jew with orthodox Jews in my own family. Part of the traditional Jewish wedding ceremony involves the bride circling around the groom seven times, which is a symbolic statement of obedience and deference.
Symbolic ritual is not a problem for me.
 
Aedes
 
Reply Tue 20 Oct, 2009 12:55 pm
@xris,
xris;98801 wrote:
Symbolic ritual is not a problem for me.
That's not the point. The symbolism directly denotes the expected relationship between husband and wife, and women are often treated as second class citizens in this kind of family.
 
xris
 
Reply Tue 20 Oct, 2009 01:11 pm
@Aedes,
Aedes;98822 wrote:
That's not the point. The symbolism directly denotes the expected relationship between husband and wife, and women are often treated as second class citizens in this kind of family.
I have not seen reports of a Jewish woman, raped, being thrashed because her evidence was not equal to a mans. I have not heard of Jewish religious police demanding women cover their hair, shall i go on? If you can point to a Jewish women being treated badly because of a misrepresentation of her faith, tell me and i will be just as veracious.
 
Aedes
 
Reply Tue 20 Oct, 2009 01:53 pm
@ahmedjbh,
Are you seriously generalizing about Islam based on a couple anecdotes???

If I search hard enough I could find a Zoroastrian, Theravada Buddhist, or Bahai woman who has been beaten and raped, but the extreme anecdote doesn't prove a generalization!!
 
xris
 
Reply Tue 20 Oct, 2009 02:30 pm
@Aedes,
Aedes;98839 wrote:
Are you seriously generalizing about Islam based on a couple anecdotes???

If I search hard enough I could find a Zoroastrian, Theravada Buddhist, or Bahai woman who has been beaten and raped, but the extreme anecdote doesn't prove a generalization!!
If you can find any other women who has suffered rape and then been condemned as an adulterer because her witness was not equal to her attackers, then show me. Did you really think i was condemning all muslims for one woman's rape? sorry if i did not make my opinions clearly. It is a problem for muslims when their scripture is used against an innocent women, they should be condemning this act, not me for bringing it to their attention.
 
josh0335
 
Reply Tue 20 Oct, 2009 03:08 pm
@xris,
xris;98845 wrote:
If you can find any other women who has suffered rape and then been condemned as an adulterer because her witness was not equal to her attackers, then show me. Did you really think i was condemning all muslims for one woman's rape? sorry if i did not make my opinions clearly. It is a problem for muslims when their scripture is used against an innocent women, they should be condemning this act, not me for bringing it to their attention.


But that's not what the scripture teaches. And Muslims do condemn these type of acts and we certainly don't need you to bring it to our attention. You are now relieved from this self-appointed duty. Thanks
 
xris
 
Reply Wed 21 Oct, 2009 05:07 am
@josh0335,
josh0335;98852 wrote:
But that's not what the scripture teaches. And Muslims do condemn these type of acts and we certainly don't need you to bring it to our attention. You are now relieved from this self-appointed duty. Thanks
Strange how it has not come to my notice any one condemn them on this thread. All i ever hear is the defence of Islam and how well it treats its women. Funny i never hear about the religious police telling men to wear appropriate length trousers or that they should grow beards. Is it the fault of countless Muslims that these distortion of scriptures restrict women freedoms or the mixed messages scriptures give them? Still this is another subject that should be brushed under the carpet hidden and not debated. I don't mind the abuse, it is of no consequence to me when i consider how many Muslim women are suffering, for no fault of theirs.
 
 

 
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