We cannot escape absurdity!

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Reply Sat 18 Apr, 2009 08:16 pm
Even if we were to find a god and be 100% sure he existed, the very motives and reasons for his existence could be questioned too. If there were some motives or meanings, they could also be questioned. You can always ask why. That's why to anything with a conscious that pursues logical knowledge there is no turning away from continuing to ask why. Even if there were bounds to existence as a whole, we could still question what put these bounds into place? why are there bounds? Why is there something rather than nothing? Existence seems boundless which for me is just absurd. Everything is absurd. It is inescapable, sometimes I wish I never would have figured this out.
 
Caroline
 
Reply Sun 19 Apr, 2009 01:11 am
@Why phil,
Am I absurd? Is nature absurd, is the universe absurd, are the people suffering from lack of food absurd, is the sun absurd, i8s everything absurd Why?
 
Victor Eremita
 
Reply Sun 19 Apr, 2009 03:36 am
@Why phil,
Technically, there's one way one can escape absurdity; that is to die.
 
Why phil
 
Reply Sun 19 Apr, 2009 09:03 am
@Caroline,
I just think everything is absurd because nothing makes sense. There are no reasons for existence and even if there were, there would be no reasons for those reasons. It is absurd that you can always ask, why? or why not something else? To me it is just strange that anything exists at all.
 
Caroline
 
Reply Sun 19 Apr, 2009 09:09 am
@Why phil,
How do you know there are no reasons and thus no reasons behind those reasons, how do you know that?
Thanks.
 
Aedes
 
Reply Sun 19 Apr, 2009 09:40 am
@Caroline,
Caroline wrote:
How do you know there are no reasons and thus no reasons behind those reasons, how do you know that?
As far as we know, the only beings on earth who worry about reasons are humans. Reasons are the product of our mind. And any reason that we infer from the universe is projected upon it by us. So we have no basis to assume that there are transcendent reasons out there in the universe, unless you happen to adhere to a religious tradition about it.
 
Why phil
 
Reply Sun 19 Apr, 2009 09:45 am
@Why phil,
Because you could always continue to ask why? A grand reason, perhaps offered by a God, could also be questioned. And why not? Does questioning have to just end at some point? Eventually, whether we found out it was a bounded or boundless existence, we would have to accept that it was so. But we could wonder why not some other way and the whole thing would become pointless. I guess there is no place for intelligence in existence. There simply is existence and to anything at least as intelligent as us, will always see things as strange and absurd.

---------- Post added at 10:52 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:45 AM ----------

Quote:
As far as we know, the only beings on earth who worry about reasons are humans. Reasons are the product of our mind. And any reason that we infer from the universe is projected upon it by us. So we have no basis to assume that there are transcendent reasons out there in the universe, unless you happen to adhere to a religious tradition about it.
Yes, I completely understand what you mean by this. So since we are continually looking for reasons, we will eventually, or perhaps already, realize there are no final reasons, thus concluding the absurdity of everything.
 
Caroline
 
Reply Sun 19 Apr, 2009 10:22 am
@Aedes,
Aedes wrote:
As far as we know, the only beings on earth who worry about reasons are humans. Reasons are the product of our mind. And any reason that we infer from the universe is projected upon it by us. So we have no basis to assume that there are transcendent reasons out there in the universe, unless you happen to adhere to a religious tradition about it.

Yes as far as we know we are the only ones that worry about reason on the earth and that's because we are conscious. But we dont know if we are the only ones in the universe.

My own beliefs rest on physical evidence none of which has made me believe that we were created in seven days and that there is a higher being looking down on us because there has been no evidence that has proven this yet.
 
GoshisDead
 
Reply Sun 19 Apr, 2009 11:22 am
@Why phil,
Why wrote:
Even if we were to find a god and be 100% sure he existed, the very motives and reasons for his existence could be questioned too. If there were some motives or meanings, they could also be questioned.


This is probably for a new thread but, I am curious as to why you are using the word motive in relation to the being of anything. Exactly how would one show or the universe show a motive for an existence? Can existence demontrate motive?
 
hue-man
 
Reply Sun 19 Apr, 2009 12:46 pm
@Why phil,
Why wrote:
Even if we were to find a god and be 100% sure he existed, the very motives and reasons for his existence could be questioned too. If there were some motives or meanings, they could also be questioned. You can always ask why. That's why to anything with a conscious that pursues logical knowledge there is no turning away from continuing to ask why. Even if there were bounds to existence as a whole, we could still question what put these bounds into place? why are there bounds? Why is there something rather than nothing? Existence seems boundless which for me is just absurd. Everything is absurd. It is inescapable, sometimes I wish I never would have figured this out.


So you're an absurdist, huh? Albert Camus, the founder of absurdism, is probably my favorite existentialist author and philosopher. Like all of existentialism, absurdism makes some important insights, but it is not the last word, as it mistakenly assumes.

You're right; if God was to reveal himself to all of humanity today I would have a lot of serious questions for him. I'd question him like a cop questions a premeditating murderer. I would also ask what created this God and his heaven. It almost seems instinctual for us to ask why. The problem is that we always have a question for an answer. It's the price of being an animal capable of abstract thought.
 
Brandon Boyd
 
Reply Mon 20 Apr, 2009 08:07 pm
@hue-man,
hue-man wrote:
So you're an absurdist, huh? Albert Camus, the founder of absurdism, is probably my favorite existentialist author and philosopher. Like all of existentialism, absurdism makes some important insights, but it is not the last word, as it mistakenly assumes.

You're right; if God was to reveal himself to all of humanity today I would have a lot of serious questions for him. I'd question him like a cop questions a premeditating murderer. I would also ask what created this God and his heaven. It almost seems instinctual for us to ask why. The problem is that we always have a question for an answer. It's the price of being an animal capable of abstract thought.




Yes, right on the dot. If "God" showed his face randomly, I (along with many, many others) would have a great amount of questions to ask him. But the key question is not, why, but how AND why. I think that human kind as a whole cannot advance without questioning how and why things work. In my opinion, "Why?" pertains almost exclusively to biology, such as why each cell does what it does, and "How?" is what we need to ask about everything else. For example, there is no reason for quantum mechanics to exist, it's just a mysterious phenomenon of which we can only question how it happens and how it works.

Now, this absence of questioning why in the universe outside of biology makes me think that maybe we do have a purpose, even if the universe does not. Just because we have a purpose does not mean we were created, though. I know the odds of live developing are extremely slim, but it's apparently possible, and maybe our purpose is to live and adapt to new situations. Therefore, the meaning to our lives and existence is within ourselves. Our purpose is what we decide for ourselves, and although there is a purpose for everything in the universe, only sentient beings can alter that purpose.
 
Sound4People
 
Reply Mon 20 Apr, 2009 10:27 pm
@Brandon Boyd,
Brandon_Boyd wrote:
I know the odds of live developing are extremely slim,

No they aren't. Infact it's 100% chance that life developes because it happened. You can not look back on something that happened and then say, well that was improbable. Everything becomes ridiculously improbable. Like the formation of any individual crystal. The chances are so astronomically small, we can't comprehend them yet crystals continue to form.

Think, is there any purpose you could possibly have that wouldn't make you angry. I certainly can't think of anything normal. Maybe if two godlike races made a bet and if we are good they will live in happiness and if we are bad they will kill eachother. I think that would be a pretty good purpose, but then those beings would have no purpose and if they did, the cause of the purpose of those beings will have no purpose. Eventually no matter what, there is no point to anything, because if you continually ask what is the point of the thing that caused the point you will end up at the fact that there is no point. All I can say is get used to it.
 
Brandon Boyd
 
Reply Mon 20 Apr, 2009 10:39 pm
@Sound4People,
Sound4People wrote:
Eventually no matter what, there is no point to anything, because if you continually ask what is the point of the thing that caused the point you will end up at the fact that there is no point. All I can say is get used to it.



Well, I agree. If there really is a point to anything, then that means that there must be a point to the point, and a point to the point of the point, and so on. That's why it's best to leave it at that. Because we can never understand everything. It's impossible. Razz
 
supercilious
 
Reply Tue 21 Apr, 2009 08:47 pm
@Why phil,
Why wrote:
Even if we were to find a god and be 100% sure he existed, the very motives and reasons for his existence could be questioned too. If there were some motives or meanings, they could also be questioned. You can always ask why. That's why to anything with a conscious that pursues logical knowledge there is no turning away from continuing to ask why. Even if there were bounds to existence as a whole, we could still question what put these bounds into place? why are there bounds? Why is there something rather than nothing? Existence seems boundless which for me is just absurd. Everything is absurd. It is inescapable, sometimes I wish I never would have figured this out.


It's good to question all good and bad, that way you learn and find your beliefs. You say we cannot escape absurdity as though it's a negitive thing. Why? without bad how are we to know good, how is there good in the first place? Everything is absurd? I think you need to put more thought into this, you're making yourself look like a fool.:bigsmile: Obviously you don't think everything is absurd because you brought up the belief in good, and unless good is absurd then you are stating self contradicting things. Typically good is not though of as absurd, you seem to be against absurdity and the only reason why that I can think of for you to be against it is you're on the 'good' side, whatever that is. You're not making clear sense in the least bit. Question, did you scribble this thread when you were half asleep?
 
Justin
 
Reply Tue 21 Apr, 2009 09:11 pm
@supercilious,
Why wrote:
Even if we were to find a god and be 100% sure he existed, the very motives and reasons for his existence could be questioned too. If there were some motives or meanings, they could also be questioned. You can always ask why. That's why to anything with a conscious that pursues logical knowledge there is no turning away from continuing to ask why. Even if there were bounds to existence as a whole, we could still question what put these bounds into place? why are there bounds? Why is there something rather than nothing? Existence seems boundless which for me is just absurd. Everything is absurd. It is inescapable, sometimes I wish I never would have figured this out.

If we found this so-called god, humankind would persecute him. Our idea of God and what God is can be very different. The question of Why will always be. Man found God thousands of years ago yet his search continues. Man finds god everyday but pushes god aside and continues his search. I'm not sure if absurd is the word for it though.

We cannot escape absurdity if we believe that to be true. The ceiling of, and the very definition is created by humankind and it's limits are likewise created by humankind. Our journey is boundless yet we create bounds, that's whats absurd.

supercilious* wrote:
I think you need to put more thought into this, you're making yourself look like a fool.:bigsmile:

On the contrary supercilious, this statement above is not allowed in this forum and is against the rules. As a new member, please take your time to familiarize yourself with them. Thank you!
 
Holiday20310401
 
Reply Tue 21 Apr, 2009 10:17 pm
@Justin,
We can escape absurdity. We can choose to be ignorant.

Ironically Justin, I would predict it would tend to be the nihilists which turn out to be absurdists; the ones who create their own meaning, who be the power of God.

Absurdity is all about recognizing that there is really no meaning to life, one is forced to come up with his own; that the objective entity of a 'God' separate of our petty existences, or a thing which created the cosmos, a separate entity, is meaningless.

So one decides that if this objectivity is meaningless then why not create meaning. The subjective can have meaning. I write poetry and read literature more than I do philosophy. Anything to distract you and keep you occupied, because that is all one can do. What is the point of hope or anything else that wanders into thoughts of the future instead of sticking to what is 'now'? Hope fails.
 
hue-man
 
Reply Wed 22 Apr, 2009 08:58 am
@Holiday20310401,
Holiday20310401 wrote:
We can escape absurdity. We can choose to be ignorant.

Ironically Justin, I would predict it would tend to be the nihilists which turn out to be absurdists; the ones who create their own meaning, who be the power of God.

Absurdity is all about recognizing that there is really no meaning to life, one is forced to come up with his own; that the objective entity of a 'God' separate of our petty existences, or a thing which created the cosmos, a separate entity, is meaningless.

So one decides that if this objectivity is meaningless then why not create meaning. The subjective can have meaning. I write poetry and read literature more than I do philosophy. Anything to distract you and keep you occupied, because that is all one can do. What is the point of hope or anything else that wanders into thoughts of the future instead of sticking to what is 'now'? Hope fails.


Well I agree that the subjectivist view of ethics (which I adhere to) and all value philosophy leads one to realize that they must give their life meaning because there is no objective meaning to life or existence. However, absurdism carries with it a pessimistic tone. This absence of hope that absurdism speaks of is what I disagree with. Now I don't believe in the empty hope of religious faith, but I do believe in the optimism that is yielded by wisdom and fortitude. Absurdism carries with it a tone of melancoly that I don't think is useful when someone is going through hard times. I mean the insight it makes into the metaphysical implications on life are very important, and it can be useful as long as it is not the last word. I can personally attest to the fact that Camus' novels (the stranger and a happy death) were both useful for me when I was going through hard times, but I didn't let the insight become the last word.

Meditating on the absurd nature of the universe and its implications for us is an important insight, but one shouldn't be surprised when its acceptance as the last word leads to nihlism or long term melancoly.
 
The Dude phil phil
 
Reply Wed 22 Apr, 2009 02:57 pm
@Victor Eremita,
Victor Eremita wrote:
Technically, there's one way one can escape absurdity; that is to die.


Disagreed.
Assuming everything is absurd, then so is death, and the lack of consciousness and self-awareness that comes with it.

Maybe existence exists because it can.
By that, I mean, if nothing existed, there would have to be something to counteract that.

AND By that I mean, existence must exist for nonexistence to even be relevant. The fact that there can be nothing, or, the lack of something, must mean there must be something for nothing to mean anything.

Ya dig?
 
Why phil
 
Reply Thu 23 Apr, 2009 07:16 pm
@The Dude phil phil,
Quote:
It's good to question all good and bad, that way you learn and find your beliefs. You say we cannot escape absurdity as though it's a negitive thing. Why? without bad how are we to know good, how is there good in the first place? Everything is absurd? I think you need to put more thought into this, you're making yourself look like a fool.:bigsmile: Obviously you don't think everything is absurd because you brought up the belief in good, and unless good is absurd then you are stating self contradicting things. Typically good is not though of as absurd, you seem to be against absurdity and the only reason why that I can think of for you to be against it is you're on the 'good' side, whatever that is. You're not making clear sense in the least bit. Question, did you scribble this thread when you were half asleep?
No I did not "scribble this thread" while I was "half asleep" but I must say I am quite confused about your claim that I "brought up the belief in good". Nowhere did I do this. Or, perhaps when I said "even if there was a god..." you interpreted this as a possibility of a belief in good.
In fact I believe good is a relative term. What is good for us may be bad for someone/something else. Or what is good for one thing will be bad for another. Good and bad are just words we use to describe if something either helps or hinders human existence or causes/takes away feelings of satisfaction. Their meanings arise from our egotistical values. Perhaps you should put more thought in your statements..

I believe absurdism is taking the view that no final meaning or grand truth exists and that the only reason we do assign meaning to fundamental questions is because we don't want to accept its meaninglessness. Sure we may be the constructs of a more complex being but only for purposes of his own. And if he learned these purposes from something else then there would have to be an origin or reasoning for that purpose and you find that either these purposes are completely made up and that a final grand truth can not exist, simply because existence is not something reasonable. And reason is born with our intelligence so for as long as humans exist, we will have to either accept purposeless existence or limit our thinking to an unquestionable purpose.

As far as this being a negative view, I am not so sure.. Is it a negative thought that everything is unreasonable? Perhaps we believe something is only positive if it serves our definitions of good. We believe infinite existence is good because that is what all living things try and accomplish so to say we will continue to exist in a heaven will satisfy this good. Maybe we think something is only good if it has meaning or reason.
I choose to accept the absurdity of existence. It does not make me depressed and unwilling to live. Whatever life is, it can be pretty fun, so I'm going to have as much fun for as long as I can, that is all I can live for..
 
The Shadow
 
Reply Sat 25 Apr, 2009 03:48 pm
@Why phil,
Why wrote:
I choose to accept the absurdity of existence. It does not make me depressed and unwilling to live. Whatever life is, it can be pretty fun, so I'm going to have as much fun for as long as I can, that is all I can live for..


I think this sums up what I have to say about absurdity in relation to how I feel about it, but I think I can add something to that.

Absurdity, or the lack of absolute truth which I think has been equated with the concept, is only thought as being "bad" in the sense that people WANT truth, purpose, meaning... whatever. What I find interesting is that limited creatures like us (human beings) don't have a sensory organ for absolute truth, or meaning etc. So, the question of whether anything is not absurd is a moot point because absolute truth either doesn't exist, or does and we'll never understand it.

I would even go so far as to say that an ultimate truth would actually be more depressing to me then the lack of it. I mean, most people want to believe that their actions and existence have meaning and purpose, thus the belief in God. Yet, this would mean that all that we do is enslaved to something else. Why not have a call to untruth, desire the lack of ultimate meaning so that all things are done for the sake of themselves as opposed to something else.
 
 

 
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