Is Beauty Truth?

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PappasNick
 
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 02:43 pm
@richard mcnair,
richard_mcnair;138022 wrote:
Yes Beauty and love are indeed a kind of truth... the highest kind of truth in fact.

Many (most?) people would consider such an idea as a silly sentimentality, preffering cause and effect relations between objects as the only truth, but in an experience of love and beauty there is a sort of union of subject and object... or rather there is an experience without subject and object. Those so wrapped up in understanding cause and effect relations between objects struggle to understand that they are only focusing on one side of the picture, and that there is truth of a kind which transcends time and space, and even causality, and we glimpse this in experiences of love and beauty.


Can beauty exist without love?
 
Krumple
 
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 02:46 pm
@PappasNick,
PappasNick;140673 wrote:
Can beauty exist without love?


Definitely, because I find a lot of things beautiful yet I care nothing for love at all. I don't have to love something to find it beautiful.
 
pondfish
 
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 03:23 pm
@sometime sun,
Truth is things not said openly.
 
PappasNick
 
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 03:27 pm
@Krumple,
Krumple;140675 wrote:
Definitely, because I find a lot of things beautiful yet I care nothing for love at all. I don't have to love something to find it beautiful.


Do you never love? If you do love, does what you love have to be beautiful?
 
Krumple
 
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 07:35 pm
@PappasNick,
PappasNick;140694 wrote:
Do you never love? If you do love, does what you love have to be beautiful?


Um, I try not to but it is not always preventable. But when it comes down to it, no, beautiful is not a requirement. But then again beauty can change because of a lot of reasons not just visual appeal.
 
pondfish
 
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 08:06 pm
@sometime sun,
Truth is so simple , it does not exist.
 
Alan McDougall
 
Reply Thu 18 Mar, 2010 12:53 am
@sometime sun,
Honesty is a higher attribute than truth
 
HexHammer
 
Reply Thu 18 Mar, 2010 06:45 am
@PappasNick,
PappasNick;140673 wrote:
Can beauty exist without love?
Surely depends on which values one judges. Form v content? A rusty old 4WD car, may do the job better bringing you from A to B over rough terrain, than a shiney Ferrai. You may love the Ferrai more, but sometimes it's the inner beauty that should count.
 
PappasNick
 
Reply Thu 18 Mar, 2010 05:15 pm
@HexHammer,
HexHammer;140868 wrote:
Surely depends on which values one judges. Form v content? A rusty old 4WD car, may do the job better bringing you from A to B over rough terrain, than a shiney Ferrai. You may love the Ferrai more, but sometimes it's the inner beauty that should count.


The beautiful is the useful? A knife that cuts well is beautiful. Yes? An ornate knife that doesn't cut well is not beautiful.
 
HexHammer
 
Reply Thu 18 Mar, 2010 05:24 pm
@PappasNick,
PappasNick;141085 wrote:
The beautiful is the useful? A knife that cuts well is beautiful. Yes? An ornate knife that doesn't cut well is not beautiful.
My intention is not to put it so binary, either or.

In some situation the one thing is value, in other situations other things are valued.

It comes down to a matter of taste, of situational needs ..just that I wouldn't put anything in ston, but flexible values.
 
Alan McDougall
 
Reply Thu 18 Mar, 2010 09:46 pm
@sometime sun,
Gods prime work of beauty a beautiful woman
 
Fido
 
Reply Fri 19 Mar, 2010 05:35 am
@HexHammer,
HexHammer;141088 wrote:
My intention is not to put it so binary, either or.

In some situation the one thing is value, in other situations other things are valued.

It comes down to a matter of taste, of situational needs ..just that I wouldn't put anything in ston, but flexible values.

That would be a point for you HH... Life is an infinite, and so is truth, and so is beauty... What each is in a given situation will depend upon the others as well, in fact, on a whole range of moral forms and physical as well...You can have a general idea, and tomorrow that may all change...

---------- Post added 03-19-2010 at 07:39 AM ----------

Alan McDougall;141174 wrote:
Gods prime work of beauty a beautiful woman

Trust me on this, for having held a beautiful woman in my hands that I am inclined to believe you are correct; but as an infinite, both beauty and truth can have a single appearance at any given time and place, and an indeterminate meaning considered from all perspectives and at all times.
 
HexHammer
 
Reply Fri 19 Mar, 2010 06:39 am
@Alan McDougall,
Alan McDougall;141174 wrote:
Gods prime work of beauty a beautiful woman
Where is that stated in the bible? ..thought it was both Adam and Eve.
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Mon 19 Apr, 2010 04:14 pm
@sometime sun,
Sure, the practical man will laugh if you say that beauty is truth, as our self-deceit is often getting us killed. I grant the practical man his object.

But what about mathematics? There is a debate about the foundation of mathematics. Is it grounded on intuition? Or is it only a system of rules that must be followed exactly? Is it finite, or does it allow of the infinite? I think to say that something is intuitive is not far from saying that it is beautiful, at least in the case of math.

Let us also consider this phrase "beauty is truth." Is this statement itself a beautiful truth? Is e=mc^2 a beautiful truth? Is science influenced by our sense of the beautiful? Are we not more likely to discover the patterns that please us? F = ma. That's a beautiful simple equation. We want the simple and the true. Are scientist driven by the desire for practical power? Some of them are, I bet. But others are probably just seeking form. An interesting issue. I don't think it's dead.
 
sometime sun
 
Reply Mon 19 Apr, 2010 04:40 pm
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;154139 wrote:
Sure, the practical man will laugh if you say that beauty is truth, as our self-deceit is often getting us killed. I grant the practical man his object.

But what about mathematics? There is a debate about the foundation of mathematics. Is it grounded on intuition? Or is it only a system of rules that must be followed exactly? Is it finite, or does it allow of the infinite? I think to say that something is intuitive is not far from saying that it is beautiful, at least in the case of math.

Let us also consider this phrase "beauty is truth." Is this statement itself a beautiful truth? Is e=mc^2 a beautiful truth? Is science influenced by our sense of the beautiful? Are we not more likely to discover the patterns that please us? F = ma. That's a beautiful simple equation. We want the simple and the true. Are scientist driven by the desire for practical power? Some of them are, I bet. But others are probably just seeking form. An interesting issue. I don't think it's dead.

This says to me that people can think that the lie is beautiful.
To know truth and see 'real' beauty one must learn how to read her.

But most of all it says, beauty is simple, but the truth is not always so simple a task of understanding. But once you do see the simple beautiful truth you will be able to find easier elsewhere everywhere.

Is knowing beautiful truth an occupation? a calling? a task? a study?
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Thu 27 May, 2010 06:16 pm
@sometime sun,
How does the concept of beauty relate to Euclidean geometry, mathematics, and formal logic? For instance, our seemingly intuitive notion of a perfectly straight line. And the perfect circle, the perfect sphere, and so on. And what about the principle of identity?

Why do we all so easily agree that A = A ? Don't get me wrong. I do to. Why is it obvious that 1 + 1 = 2? What do we feel that these two ones are of identical value?

What axioms structure the most basic aspects of our thinking? This is proof as persuasion, and persuasion as related to beauty.
 
Fido
 
Reply Thu 27 May, 2010 08:48 pm
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;169780 wrote:
How does the concept of beauty relate to Euclidean geometry, mathematics, and formal logic? For instance, our seemingly intuitive notion of a perfectly straight line. And the perfect circle, the perfect sphere, and so on. And what about the principle of identity?

Why do we all so easily agree that A = A ? Don't get me wrong. I do to. Why is it obvious that 1 + 1 = 2? What do we feel that these two ones are of identical value?

What axioms structure the most basic aspects of our thinking? This is proof as persuasion, and persuasion as related to beauty.

Identity is expressed as A is A... It is conservation by another name... It is like saying that a line is a line no matter how long or short you make it... Th idea of the line is conserved... We could not make rational considerations if we could not hold some constants...
 
Deckard
 
Reply Thu 27 May, 2010 09:31 pm
@Fido,
Shelley's Hymn to Intellectual Beauty is worth a read through.

71. Hymn to Intellectual Beauty by Percy Bysshe Shelley. Nicholson & Lee, eds. 1917. The Oxford Book of English Mystical Verse

"Intellectual" means immaterial or the Spirit Beauty as opposed to material, transient, relative type of Beauty. Usually it is this assumed materiality, transience and relativity of Beauty that is used to distinguish it from Truth. But then Truth has been called transient and relative by some. Beauty and Truth could be the same thing only appearing to be different because of the different manners in which it participates in our mortal realm.

Consider the same poem but exchange Beauty for Truth and call it "Hymn to Intellectual Truth". It works quite well in places.

Spirit of Truth, that dost consecrate
With thine own hues all thou dost shine upon
Of human thought or form - where art thou gone?
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Thu 27 May, 2010 10:00 pm
@sometime sun,
You tell me what it means to say that beauty is truth, and I will give you my opinion on whether that is true (beautiful?)

---------- Post added 05-28-2010 at 12:02 AM ----------

Reconstructo;154139 wrote:
Sure, the practical man will laugh if you

I think he would just be perplexed, and ask you what you meant by that statement. Could you answer him sensibly so as to relieve his perplexity?
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Thu 27 May, 2010 11:28 pm
@Deckard,
Deckard;169814 wrote:
Shelley's Hymn to Intellectual Beauty is worth a read through.

71. Hymn to Intellectual Beauty by Percy Bysshe Shelley. Nicholson & Lee, eds. 1917. The Oxford Book of English Mystical Verse

"Intellectual" means immaterial or the Spirit Beauty as opposed to material, transient, relative type of Beauty. Usually it is this assumed materiality, transience and relativity of Beauty that is used to distinguish it from Truth. But then Truth has been called transient and relative by some. Beauty and Truth could be the same thing only appearing to be different because of the different manners in which it participates in our mortal realm.

Consider the same poem but exchange Beauty for Truth and call it "Hymn to Intellectual Truth". It works quite well in places.

Spirit of Truth, that dost consecrate
With thine own hues all thou dost shine upon
Of human thought or form - where art thou gone?

Great post. I like the "different manners" sentence especially. It's hard to imagine Truth in the sense of Wisdom as divorced from Beauty. Of course a math fan is going to see Beauty in Intellectual Truth, even if this "truth" is a only small core that shapes the rest which is opinion, flux, relative.

Looking at the grounds of logic and math, the abstract general proposition, the unity concept "one" it's hard not to see the necessity of some intuition or inborn form that different from sensation and emotion, even if usually tied up with it. Why do we all agree that A = A? What is identity? Can we define it in other terms? I find it beautiful, too. Was Parmenides in love with his eternal One? I've read that poem but it's been awhile. I will have to see how it looks to older younger eyes. Smile

---------- Post added 05-28-2010 at 12:30 AM ----------

kennethamy;169816 wrote:
You tell me what it means to say that beauty is truth, and I will give you my opinion on whether that is true (beautiful?)

---------- Post added 05-28-2010 at 12:02 AM ----------

Reconstructo;154139 wrote:
Sure, the practical man will laugh if you

I think he would just be perplexed, and ask you what you meant by that statement. Could you answer him sensibly so as to relieve his perplexity?


What is it that grounds mathematics and formal logic? Why are these forms the ones we find convincing?

Can you or anyone give an exhaustive account of his own thinking? What is thinking, and why do you find logic persuasive?
 
 

 
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