Good and Evil- Good God and the Evil One

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Reply Mon 17 Aug, 2009 06:22 am
Origin of Evil.

Here are my conclusions on the origin of Evil.

I cannot comprehend the view that a perfect, good; loving God of pure light and love could ever conceive the concept of evil in his totally pure and holy mind.

Evil is totally opposite to Gods absolute goodness, completely alien to his innate intrinsic nature and essence. All evil is a monstrous abomination to God.

God is perfect and would, therefore, does not permit the concept of evil to originate or exist in his perfect holy mind or in his creation

The usual answer is that a previously perfect Arch Angel Lucifer became jealous of God and began to appose God and set up his own kingdom of darkness.

How then could God create a being with the "potential" for the utter evil that we see all around us on planet earth and in the universe? (Lucifer, eve, Adam, some of mankind)? Lucifer was perfect when created! Adam was innocent!

Logic tells me Lucifer is thus not Satan or the Devil but maybe "an agent of " IT"

How could a perfect being like Lucifer become corrupt? I like to use the analogy of the perfect motor car. A perfect motor car would simply last forever in its original perfect condition. Except under one condition "outside destructive interference".

The very same result would be with a perfect being such as Lucifer! (Who told him he was beautiful? certainly not God!) God would never write into his book of existence the concept or possibility of a malignant thing such as evil. Evil must, therefore, have originated outside of his perfect self and mind! What possible use could evil be to God?

God is omnipotent (all-powerful), omnipresent (all - present) and omniscient (all - knowing) he is however not "everything" God is "light" and in him is no darkness whatsoever! , Therefore, "darkness" must be an external something separate from Himself.

I believe in a duality a God of infinite goodness apposed by an antigod of infinite evil

I know from experience, that the source of EVIL and its origin is from some external eternal monster that lurks remote from God in the primeval darkness of the deep (Gen 1:1). I call this place the "void"(hell). I am convinced that the '('VOID') is HELL by a terrifying personal experience during a near death episode.

I was shown an evil monster of almost infinite intelligence lurks in the deepest darkness of the void (hell), while there. It is this eternal monster that I believe tempted Lucifer, resulting in his downfall and his metamorphosis into Satan or the Devil. This monster is the complete opposite to God and dwells in utmost darkness deep, and very remote from God. I know this is true as I was shown this Malignant Monstrous Beast by an intelligence I took for God, while in the Void during a near death experience



I think that "IT" is God's eternal enemy and the reason for evil and its origin and perpetuation. This thing is almost as mighty as God is himself! (Light against darkness). It seemed to be some type of antigod? There is an Anti-Christ-why not an Anti-God, Maybe they are one and the same evil being?

If you dismiss my above view on good and evil, then you must refer to the Bible and read Isaiah 45; 7 were GOD says" I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."

This verse could be a very definite and clear indication of the origin of evil; namely evil originating from God himself and "God having two natures"

On what basis do I justify my previous statements? They are justified on the basis of my own personal terrible confrontation with this evil monster that lurks deep in the "Void" or hell. (Three times during brought on by near death episodes).

This "void" monster is worshiped by Satan and I am convinced is the ultimate source and origin of all evil. Satan did not confront me during one of my near death experiences, but by something almost infinitely worse! Satan is the prince of darkness, not the king of Evil! This thing is God's eternal enemy and has a diabolic almost infinite evil dark intelligence and power.

I experienced that God due to his innate perfection is forced to judge Evil (darkness) and remove it forever from his being. I felt this judgment more as an emotional separation from God, with feelings of utter darkness, desolation, despair, and fear terror, horror and everlasting dark cold hopelessness, the Void.

I was shown that totally depraved dark evil beings , would have to eternally exist, somewhere far together, forever, separate and remote from God's love and could never enter his light. (Darkness cannot penetrate the light!). Because of their utter evil depravity and darkness, totally

Evil and Depraved beings would never enter Gods light and would be forgotten by God in their own Evil Depraved Perversions forever in the Void" A terrible thought".

When I was so very ill, I communicated with intelligence, who revealed these things to me? I got the impression that God would someday rescue persons of much lesser evil, who had some light (goodness) in them. From the lesser upper regions of the Void into His eternal blessed light. (Out of the eternal darkness).

Let me assure the reader that there is no love, joy peace or light in the Void. Only utmost hopeless desolation and everlasting despair.

There is good and evil throughout the Universe. I know this from personal experience! The battle is from Eternal past but God will destroy the Beast of the Abysses

But do not despair if you are reading this short essay of mine, you are safe because God is within you and you have a spark of eternal life energy that can never be extinguished. This light will one day become a blazing furnace of love.


So Satan is not the source of evil only an agent of Satan I call the evil one "Evilian"


You see if you have read this account you are concerned with Evil and evil is your enemy


God does not have two natures!
God is love!


IS GOD GOOD?
DOES GOD NOT EXIST?
DOES GOD HAVE A POWERFUL ENEMY?
 
Krumple
 
Reply Mon 17 Aug, 2009 08:19 am
@Alan McDougall,
Quote:
How could a perfect being like Lucifer become corrupt? I like to use the analogy of the perfect motor car. A perfect motor car would simply last forever in its original perfect condition. Except under one condition "outside destructive interference".


See this is the thing people neglect when they talk about outside interference. If a being is manipulating or influencing you do make decisions then by all means you would not be accountable for your actions. Why? Because you must ask this question, under normal conditions would you have done the same thing? No, you wouldn't have because you were manipulated. Therefore you are not responsible in this case. However I don't buy the idea that you even can be manipulated by outside influence. It is only a way people like to pass blame.

Also if there were such things as demons, you would have no idea they were demons. People like to think they would look hideous or monstrous and easily be recognizable. But on the contrary, looking that way would not be beneficial if you want to manipulate a mortal. Instead you would want to appear appealing to them, become someone whom they admire, respect and worship. Like a minister, priest, ect. Then fill their heads full of lies, bigotry, hatred, prejudice so you will create animosity with others. It would keep people fighting each other over stupid issues.
 
filosofired
 
Reply Mon 17 Aug, 2009 10:05 am
@Krumple,
these beings may not be in the physical but may influence you mentally, there is the spirit realm and the physical world and this war (between good and evil) is not of flesh and blood but of the spirit and the weapons used are therefore of the spirit(2corinth 10 :4)
 
gaz7224
 
Reply Mon 17 Aug, 2009 11:05 am
@Alan McDougall,
Perhaps there is a need to separate oneself from evil and designate oneself as 'good', when in reality one is both, and the opposites are just 2 sides of the same coin.

" I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."

Does this not indicate a single Source?

Perhaps I've missed your point.

Gaz
 
Grimlock
 
Reply Mon 17 Aug, 2009 02:37 pm
@Alan McDougall,
Seriously..."Evilian"?! That's Homer Simpson-esque. I hate reading something and thinking that maybe it's satire and maybe I'm the only one who is not sure while everyone around me is laughing their asses off.

Are those last passages meant to be philosophical, or are they meant to produce hits from the all-knowing, all-evil web spider?
 
William
 
Reply Mon 17 Aug, 2009 05:51 pm
@Krumple,
Krumple;83755 wrote:
See this is the thing people neglect when they talk about outside interference........... I don't buy the idea that you even can be manipulated by outside influence. It is only a way people like to pass blame.
Quote:


Krumple, I assume by the statement above you have never looked at a "price tag" or the nutritional information on food packaging or persuaded as to what is best over worst? Ever bought a "used car"? The very fact that we make choices is based on others ability to "manipulate" us and the choices we make. Even the word "teach" is an effort to manipulate. The only one who cannot be manipulated, IMO, is he who cares for no one and hears no one who might care and hear and know more than they do. It would be a sign of weakness for them to do so such as could be "a" definition of an atheist. (I said "a" not "the"!) The theist "wants to believe others"; the atheist could care less. Exceptions noted, understood and excepted. Again, IMMHO.

William
 
jeeprs
 
Reply Mon 17 Aug, 2009 08:15 pm
@Alan McDougall,
you should consider that your idea of evil is actually your own projection. There is a saying 'the good that has no opposite'. This is to distinguish the true good, the ultimate good, from all the things we believe are good, which always have their opposite, or are subject to change. If there is an absolute good, it has no opposite, and the only evil is our ignorance of the absolute good. When we are no longer ignorant of it, evil is utterly vanquished.

---------- Post added 08-18-2009 at 12:23 PM ----------

But then, I speak from a non-dualist perspective, which I can see is different from your own.

In your terms, I don't have an answer to your question.
 
Alan McDougall
 
Reply Mon 17 Aug, 2009 10:12 pm
@Alan McDougall,
HI guys in my first post I gave two alternate reason for the existence of evil

1) There is a mighty opposing enemy of God a sort of antigod and Satan was just its agent
2) God is the creator of both good and evil as per Isaiah 45 verse 7
 
jeeprs
 
Reply Mon 17 Aug, 2009 10:52 pm
@Alan McDougall,
Well I really don't know, except for to say that if I were to believe in the Bible, then I would sincerely believe that by faith in Jesus Christ, evil would be overcome.

I do know that in some non-orthodox early interpretations, Lucifer himself would be eventually redeemed, and hell was not eternal. The fact that Lucifer is a 'fallen angel' is significant.

However the official doctrine appears to have rejected that.

At the end of the day though I would believe the only God is infinite, eternal, and all good. Evil might appear very substantial and long-lasting to us worldlings, but it don't really hold a candle.

AND - be careful where your thoughts lead you! The mind has amazing powers of manifestation, you know. Meditate on the Good. That's my advice.
 
Alan McDougall
 
Reply Tue 18 Aug, 2009 01:35 am
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;83938 wrote:
Well I really don't know, except for to say that if I were to believe in the Bible, then I would sincerely believe that by faith in Jesus Christ, evil would be overcome.

I do know that in some non-orthodox early interpretations, Lucifer himself would be eventually redeemed, and hell was not eternal. The fact that Lucifer is a 'fallen angel' is significant.

However the official doctrine appears to have rejected that.

At the end of the day though I would believe the only God is infinite, eternal, and all good. Evil might appear very substantial and long-lasting to us worldlings, but it don't really hold a candle.

AND - be careful where your thoughts lead you! The mind has amazing powers of manifestation, you know. Meditate on the Good. That's my advice.


Nice comments and thank you we must be careful where we let our thoughts go and dwell on sort of protect the doorway to the mind
 
Krumple
 
Reply Tue 18 Aug, 2009 11:54 am
@Alan McDougall,
Quote:
Krumple, I assume by the statement above you have never looked at a "price tag" or the nutritional information on food packaging or persuaded as to what is best over worst? Ever bought a "used car"? The very fact that we make choices is based on others ability to "manipulate" us and the choices we make. Even the word "teach" is an effort to manipulate. The only one who cannot be manipulated, IMO, is he who cares for no one and hears no one who might care and hear and know more than they do. It would be a sign of weakness for them to do so such as could be "a" definition of an atheist. (I said "a" not "the"!) The theist "wants to believe others"; the atheist could care less. Exceptions noted, understood and excepted. Again, IMMHO.


I wasn't talking about people manipulating people. Of course I know that people can manipulate people. I was talking about "spiritual" influence manipulation. People like to say the devil does this or that, or demons posses people to make them do things they wouldn't normally. This is the crap I don't believe happens, it's just a way for people to pass the blame. Besides if a demon were to posses a person and cause them to do something, then by all means that person shouldn't be held accountable but yet they still are.
 
hammersklavier
 
Reply Tue 18 Aug, 2009 09:18 pm
@Alan McDougall,
A God who is benepotent (capable only of acts of good) cannot be at the same time omnipotent (capable of all possible acts). The reason is, is because all means all and if you can't do evil acts (if you can't be malapotent) you therefore can't do about 50% of all possible acts and therefore you're not omnipotent, you're merely demipotent, and if you're only demipotent then you're only a demiurge and not a true God in the Western viewpoint of things.

Or, in the laconic Chinese way of saying things,
'God is beyond good and evil. God is good and evil.'
 
jeeprs
 
Reply Tue 18 Aug, 2009 09:42 pm
@Alan McDougall,
But there is the also the possibility that evil is an illusion and that the things we call evil don't really exist. I hasten to add that I don't know if I personally understand that viewpoint, but it is the attitude of various gnostic, neoplatonist and vedantist schools for whom the world of ordinary perception is projected out of ignorance. (I suppose I should find some quotes....)
 
Krumple
 
Reply Tue 18 Aug, 2009 09:49 pm
@Alan McDougall,
Quote:
But there is the also the possibility that evil is an illusion and that the things we call evil don't really exist. I hasten to add that I don't know if I personally understand that viewpoint, but it is the attitude of various gnostic, neoplatonist and vedantist schools for whom the world of ordinary perception is projected out of ignorance. (I suppose I should find some quotes....)


This is probably the most honest answer yet for this topic. Seriously we make up what we consider to be evil. Here's a fair tale example of what I mean.

The brave knight wanting to prove his worth with valor has decided to go hunt down the evil dragon and slay him. Well according to the dragon, the knight coming to slay him is the evil one.

Typically what follows is this, "What you perceive to be evil, should be destroyed."

This is why the knight was motivated in the first place to go slay the dragon. But in reality the very act of the knight wanting to slay the dragon becomes evil in itself.

This is why you can never be the good one if you are trying to vanquish all evil with murder. It only makes you the evil one in the process.
 
jeeprs
 
Reply Tue 18 Aug, 2009 09:56 pm
@Alan McDougall,
Well - very good quote, and quite to the point. It always strikes me that in history, many of those who were quite obsessed with evil were in fact very often the most likely perpetrators of it. Didn't Christ say 'resist not evil' somewhere? Seems like most Christians choose not to hear it.

I don't think, on the other hand, this should be a reason to indulge evil or to be evil. I suppose, ideally, it should be 'fixed with a steady gaze'. This will soon enough reveal it to be the illusion it always was.
 
Alan McDougall
 
Reply Wed 19 Aug, 2009 02:54 am
@Alan McDougall,
To suggest that evil is just an illusion , one must then accept is opposite good is also a delusion or illusion

I think if you could go and ask survivors of the holocuast all them will testify to the reality of evil

I really like the Zoroastrianism concept of duality where good will ultimately triumph

Ahura the wise god heads the good spirits while Ahriman is the personification of evil in the evil god, in this titanic battle of good against evil
 
jeeprs
 
Reply Wed 19 Aug, 2009 03:48 am
@Alan McDougall,
Not at all. If the universe is infinite, and benign, then goodness is infinite. Of course, you can believe it is evil. That is your perogative.

Of course the death camps were evil. But Viktor Frankl believed that

Quote:
it was due to his and others' suffering in these camps that he came to his hallmark conclusion that even in the most absurd, painful and dehumanized situation, life has potential meaning and that therefore even suffering is meaningful. (source)


At the end of the day, no-one can convince anyone of the truth of these assertions about good or evil. It is a matter of how you understand life to be. I have had experiences which convince me that the good is infinite and evil is only the privation of the good. If all good is illusion as well as all evil, everything is simply an illusion, why do anything, including having a conversation? There is no point in any of it.

But I refuse to accept that.
 
hammersklavier
 
Reply Wed 19 Aug, 2009 04:02 am
@Alan McDougall,
I wouldn't go so far as to say that good and evil are themselves an illusion, but certainly the perceived duality between them is. The idea that what is good cannot be evil (and vice versa) is clearly illusory, since many so-called evil acts have so-called good outcomes (and vice versa). I'm not yet sold on the idea that the world is Ding-an-sich an illusion, either; only that many human beliefs about how the world works are.

I find the Chinese concept of Dao (that's Tao in pinyin) the clearest manifestation of these concepts...in the Daodejing it states that the Dao created both good and evil, and that furthermore what is good from an ethical point of view is to follow the Dao and evil to shun it. I find this a very interesting structure, because it happens to enfold both the traditional Indian ethical system of dharma and the traditional Western metaphysical construct that Heaven is a place where one is perpetually near God and Hell a place where one is perpetually most distance from Him. It could be saying that (for Westerners) to follow in the ways of Dao is to be closer to God and to shun them more distant from Him...that is, stressing the eternality of heaven and hell is to miss the point; rather, we should be focused on channeling our actions into the correct mold...but then again, the heaven-hell theology arose as a mode to try and get us to channel our actions into the correct mold...Hm.
 
ahmedjbh
 
Reply Mon 7 Sep, 2009 05:10 pm
@Alan McDougall,
Alan McDougall;84276 wrote:
To suggest that evil is just an illusion , one must then accept is opposite good is also a delusion or illusion

I think if you could go and ask survivors of the holocuast all them will testify to the reality of evil

I really like the Zoroastrianism concept of duality where good will ultimately triumph

Ahura the wise god heads the good spirits while Ahriman is the personification of evil in the evil god, in this titanic battle of good against evil


But what is evil?

Heres my take, maybe completely wrong, but here goes.

You cant have a pint of evil etc , you cant point at a single act in tself and say if its good or evil, its just an act, the intention determines the goodness or badness.

I would rather say evil is the LACK of any goodness, just as darkness is the lack of light.

Satan does not follow Gods guidance and rules, therefore is by definition bad/evil. He however is not a force that is competing with God, he is there when people leave the guidance of God, he is what is followed when you are not following Gods orders. So effectively he has no power, he can only tempt you away, and you have to actively leave Gods guidance.

This way of thinking eliminates duality and all its issues, and also removes the apparent paradox of why God would make such a figure.
 
Alan McDougall
 
Reply Mon 7 Sep, 2009 05:48 pm
@ahmedjbh,
ahmedjbh;88863 wrote:
But what is evil?

Heres my take, maybe completely wrong, but here goes.

You cant have a pint of evil etc , you cant point at a single act in tself and say if its good or evil, its just an act, the intention determines the goodness or badness.

I would rather say evil is the LACK of any goodness, just as darkness is the lack of light.

Satan does not follow Gods guidance and rules, therefore is by definition bad/evil. He however is not a force that is competing with God, he is there when people leave the guidance of God, he is what is followed when you are not following Gods orders. So effectively he has no power, he can only tempt you away, and you have to actively leave Gods guidance.

This way of thinking eliminates duality and all its issues, and also removes the apparent paradox of why God would make such a figure.


Maybe but the reverse could also apply good is just the absence of evil and that evil is the prime attribute of creation, that is my point

God allows Satan to do his deception of man and therefore the "accountability" for evil sits firmly at the hypothetical seat of the Most High God By proxy God created evil
 
 

 
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