Good and Evil- Good God and the Evil One

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filosofired
 
Reply Sun 13 Sep, 2009 07:10 am
@Alan McDougall,
Alan McDougall;89677 wrote:
... In fact God and nature are one...



Hi Alan, i am troubled and quite frankly disturbed by your statement that says God and nature are one. according to my understanding he created nature and exists (his works can be seen) in nature, but he is not nature.
by you saying God is nature gives "pagans" the right to bow down to and praise the sun, animals, the moon and all the others things that people serve. according to the bible, this is wrong hence the first and most important commandment: DO NOT SERVE ANY OTHER GOD.

There is a difference between appreciating nature and praising nature. your statement to me seems as if giving grounds on which to defy the first commandment by not appreciating nature but praising it
 
salima
 
Reply Sun 13 Sep, 2009 02:05 pm
@filosofired,
filosofired;89970 wrote:
Hi Alan, i am troubled and quite frankly disturbed by your statement that says God and nature are one. according to my understanding he created nature and exists (his works can be seen) in nature, but he is not nature.
by you saying God is nature gives "pagans" the right to bow down to and praise the sun, animals, the moon and all the others things that people serve. according to the bible, this is wrong hence the first and most important commandment: DO NOT SERVE ANY OTHER GOD.

There is a difference between appreciating nature and praising nature. your statement to me seems as if giving grounds on which to defy the first commandment by not appreciating nature but praising it


if god and nature are one then when you praise nature you are praising god. it is a difficult concept to appreciate. for instance, the immediate usual criticism to this idea of unity is 'oh, so you are god then?!' and that is the end of the subject, no more listening.

in simplest terms, no we are not god-but god is us and a whole lot more. what we worship is that part of us god is, which is in fact unknowable. to worship the false self is of course blasphemy. but you are obligated to try and find out what the false self is and search for Self.

if pagans or idolators recognize and understand that what they are bowing down before are only symbols of essence which they have nothing tangible to concentrate on, and usually they do realize this, it is not the same as actually worshipping anything other than god.

what you have said is your understanding is easily seen not to be contradictory to anything alan has written.
 
ahmedjbh
 
Reply Sun 13 Sep, 2009 06:01 pm
@Krumple,
Krumple;89690 wrote:
I see things a little differently. I live according to my heart, not by the hand of others nor a book. If I am wrong, so be it, but what can a god expect of me? To forgo my heart for some lack of evidence?

I don't trust that the Bible or the Quran have avoided corruption. I don't see how the attitude of man is so negative and untrustworthy yet belief that these books have avoided the wicked hand of man is absurd and not believable. I don't think any god has the power to prevent man from corrupting a system. Therefore I am left with only one thing to trust, and that is my own heart.

My own heart says there is no god. If I am wrong, so be it. But that god would know that what I say is honestly the truth. If I am tortured because of that, then that god was never worthy of my praise or worship. Because I would never hold anyone to such a degree of absolute without providing an absolute account. No god has provided an absolute account, therefore no god is qualified for judgment of the absolute.


This attitude is definitely wise and correct. If im not mistaken, in Islam you can not be punished for genuine "ignorance" for want of a better word.

I am just on the other side of the fence in that, from the evidence and my own reasoning, my heart has decided that there must be a God. What is annoying, is that even though my heart accepts that, my mind sometimes chooses to ignore it when it comes to things Im not supposed to do!
 
prothero
 
Reply Sun 13 Sep, 2009 11:16 pm
@filosofired,
[QUOTE=filosofired;89970]Hi Alan, i am troubled and quite frankly disturbed by your statement that says God and nature are one. according to my understanding he created nature and exists (his works can be seen) in nature, but he is not nature. [/QUOTE]
In theological terms the notion that god and nature are one is pantheism. Although usually attributed to Spinoza, I do not think it is reflective of Spinoza's actual position. If nature is not rational or moral then God would not be moral or rational agent. Pan =all theism=god. All is God. This is a completely immanent philosophy or conception of the divine. God is not separated from or transcendent to the world.


[QUOTE=filosofired;89970] by you saying God is nature gives "pagans" the right to bow down to and praise the sun, animals, the moon and all the others things that people serve. According to the bible, this is wrong hence the first and most important commandment: DO NOT SERVE ANY OTHER GOD. [/QUOTE]
Transcendent- beyond or separate from the universe or world.
Immanent- dwelling within the universe or world.
The extent to which one views god as separate from, beyond or above this world or dwelling within and part of nature and the world is one of the major dimensions of religious thought. Both conceptions form part of the traditional Judeo-Christian conception although transcendence is the dominant orthodox position.
The way you are separating nature (paganism) from god; I would say you have a transcendent view of the divine. There is nothing wrong with worshiping nature as Gods creation and wherein the divine dwells. "The divine dwells within" more an Eastern monistic and western mystical conception. It is also very ecology friendly.



[QUOTE=filosofired;89970]There is a difference between appreciating nature and praising nature. your statement to me seems as if giving grounds on which to defy the first commandment by not appreciating nature but praising it[/QUOTE]
For a nice blend of both immanence and weak transcendent try panentheism.
Pan- al en=within theism=God.
This is an emerging popular conception of the divine especially in liberal and process theologies (Unitarians and progressive Christians).
In this conception the world (universe, nature) is contained within the divine but there are transcendent aspects (reason and ethics) to the divine nature.
The best analogy is the relationship between your mind and your body.
The universe is the material manifestation of the divine but there is a spiritual (mental or psychic) aspect that gives the universe purpose and direction.
Not your orthodox, tradition, classical supernatural theism but not entirely incompatible with science and a modern view of the world.
 
Alan McDougall
 
Reply Mon 14 Sep, 2009 02:13 pm
@filosofired,
filosofired;89970 wrote:
Hi Alan, i am troubled and quite frankly disturbed by your statement that says God and nature are one. according to my understanding he created nature and exists (his works can be seen) in nature, but he is not nature.
by you saying God is nature gives "pagans" the right to bow down to and praise the sun, animals, the moon and all the others things that people serve. according to the bible, this is wrong hence the first and most important commandment: DO NOT SERVE ANY OTHER GOD.

There is a difference between appreciating nature and praising nature. your statement to me seems as if giving grounds on which to defy the first commandment by not appreciating nature but praising it


Of course you cannot worship nature as if it were sentient. Before the creation of our universe what existed other than GOD? (leave out alternate universes please).

All existence emanated from the essence of the most high God because in him all things were created. The heavens declare the glory of God.

In 1 Corr verse 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is DEATH
In 1 Corr verse 28And when all things subdued unto him, then shall the Son(Jesus) also himself be subject him that put all things under (Jesus) that God may be ALL IN ALL

"Is your concept of God some supreme being sitting on a huge throne somewhere in Orion's belt? "

Science tells us that the universe consists of only five fundamentals, Electrons, protons, neutrons and photons (light or energy). Lets leave out quantum particles for the moment

If these three fundamentals are not part of God then we must think of two externals , 1) the Universe and 2)God as some separate mighty supreme being, like us but just greater?

To me God is the great living equation that formulated and created everything in existence even altering his own being to make space for us exist

A great astronomer James Jeans said when he first looked out at the vastness of the universe he contemplated what it really was, A colossal well oiled machine, after thinking about it he said no not a machine but a beautiful thought



The above is my idea why God and nature are really ONE becuase nature and we humans are the outcome of his thinking possesses
 
xris
 
Reply Tue 15 Sep, 2009 04:01 am
@Alan McDougall,
Our Pagan ancestors had the same feelings about the wonder of nature as we do and where filled with awe at the maginificance and cruelty of its power. With little understanding they endevoured to make sense of it and imagined spirits had the ability to control this wonderous thing.

Now by all means search for the answers to these mysteries but dont put dogmatic opinions up as certainties, when we know no more than our Pagan ancestors, please.

I do believe we see foot prints of an engineered universe in nature but it can never describe the engineer, nor can it give credence to any man made god.
 
Alan McDougall
 
Reply Tue 15 Sep, 2009 08:05 am
@xris,
xris;90248 wrote:
Our Pagan ancestors had the same feelings about the wonder of nature as we do and where filled with awe at the maginificance and cruelty of its power. With little understanding they endevoured to make sense of it and imagined spirits had the ability to control this wonderous thing.

Now by all means search for the answers to these mysteries but dont put dogmatic opinions up as certainties, when we know no more than our Pagan ancestors, please.

I do believe we see foot prints of an engineered universe in nature but it can never describe the engineer, nor can it give credence to any man made god.



Great scientists like Albert Einstein and Richard Feynman strived towards the equation to explain all of creation the "Theory of Everything", thus mathematics underpins the very foundation of nature, why is it so hard to think that due to this fact, that a master mathematician is behind the creation of the universe
 
Caroline
 
Reply Tue 15 Sep, 2009 08:50 am
@Alan McDougall,
I could be a mathmetician it could also be something else it could be both? I dont know!
 
xris
 
Reply Tue 15 Sep, 2009 09:01 am
@Alan McDougall,
Alan McDougall;90305 wrote:
Great scientists like Albert Einstein and Richard Feynman strived towards the equation to explain all of creation the "Theory of Everything", thus mathematics underpins the very foundation of nature, why is it so hard to think that due to this fact, that a master mathematician is behind the creation of the universe
Its not hard to imagine but lets not invent a god to suit our imagination. It may be very frustrating not finding this engineer but we must be honest with ourselves. Is it important that we discover this entity or we put a name to this force of nature? I cant find a benevolent god so i accept the engineer might be an enigma, that is not necessary.

I can remember an atheist, who like believed in heaven.."why do I need a god in heaven? i did not need him, here so why there"
 
 

 
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