Good and Evil- Good God and the Evil One

@Alan McDougall,

I disagree. This is just my opinion.

Evil is a non-entity, it is what happens when you arent doing good, when you are not following God given guidance.

Evil is not something that is created, as I have said in other threads, no action in itself is good or evil, it is the intention of the performer which determines the merit of the deed. If the deed is done with good intentions based on God given guidance, then it is deemed a good act.

For example, one man kills another.

Some may say, this is instant evil, any killing is plain evil.

If the "victim" was about to push a button that would wipe out millions and the only way to save those people was to kill that man, then this would be deemed good. If he killed him, simply because he wanted his possesions etc, then its evil.

The act was exactly the same, so where is the evil, what was created? nothing. I dont think it is fair to say God created evil. Evil is a choice that humanity can make, it is not an entity which is created or tangible.

As for your point about that evil maybe the rule, and good is the lack of evil. This point needs careful thought. By what yardstick are we judging evil/good?

If you are religious, you will point to your scholars and accept their views, if you are atheist, you will have your own opinion for what is good and bad.

Im religious, and religious people will generally say, God has determined what is good/bad, and by following those rules, we will do good.

As for God being responsible for the evil, I again do not accept this. Evil is a literal choice that is made in the human mind, it is something that is chosen and created purely by man, and this is purely the responsiblity of man. God did not create the intention to do evil in an individuals mind, and for that matter neither did satan. Satan merely makes attractive the known evil.

Its just like when you park your car where you shouldnt have, the double line is not to blame, the parking warden isnt to blame, you knew it was wrong, but you chose to park there, and thus you take full responsiblity. Parking on the double line was just there as an option, just as legatimate parking, it maybe quicker or more convienent, but ultimately, you knew it was wrong, and not only that, you even knew there was a logic in the rule, if everyone did it, an aspect of society would be impared.

This is how I feel the universe is in respect to good and evil, the good is there and it is known, the evil is there and it is known, they are not tied to physical actions, but rather to intentions, and they are purely the choice of the individual, who bears full responsiblity for all outcomes.

@Alan McDougall,

hi alan,
i think i was in the place for quite awhile in my actual life, that void you describe. it was a long time ago, but imagine waking up every morning there...i am not trying to be funny, i am quite serious. i dont think it is as far away as you believe it to be...

but once that darkness is dispelled, once the light has reached a certain depth, it is forever finished. the problem with mystical experiences is that on the way back they get covered up with the forms and concepts that belong to each realm and by the time we are able to try and sort them out in our minds and relate them to anyone they have been distorted. they have been made to fit into various mythical fantasies we dont even realize affect us but are lurking in our psyche and history and even our genealogy. it takes decades to sort these things out, and partly depends on the condition you were in when you had the experience and how deep it was or how long it lasted. it is a trauma of a sort.

you must have compared your experience to that of many other people by now, and know that many of them do not find anything evil at all-i am one of those. why do you think that is? what i am thinking is that what you saw was not in fact a part of a higher understanding, but maybe that which is impeding you-that which you are always at odds with and fighting to try and gain control of what you judge to be good. i am not trying to psychoanalyze you, but i am offering a suggestion as to another interpretation of what it is that you saw as evil and its abode.

god is said to be absolute-that means he has no opposite. therefore he cannot be good with evil existing outside of himself. he is all in total and nothing specific. we have imposed these labels on what we misinterpret of reality. this fight between good and evil is in our own mind, in consciousness, which attempts to perceive a force outside of itself, when in reality the only enemy is within.

i know what you saw exists-because i also saw it in a different place. i think you may be making a mistake as to where it was coming from. you also seem to have a sense that what you saw as the embodiment of evil cannot prevail-and i agree. that in itself should be enough to suggest to you that it is not on the same level as the god experience-it just followed you there, like an uninvited guest.

---------- Post added 09-11-2009 at 07:02 AM ----------

i wonder why this thread is in the christianity section? or even in the religion section? it includes the god concept but is not limited to any one religion...

@Alan McDougall,

now why the dickens would you want to believe that? caution is advised here.

@jeeprs,

jeeprs;89516 wrote:

now why the dickens would you want to believe that? caution is advised here.

why would i want to believe what? all i said was happy stuff, wasnt it?

(dont worry, no caution necessary on my part...i am pretty sure i been through it all already, or at least the spooky part.)

@Alan McDougall,

No not you:-) there was some comment there from the institgator of this thread contempatling the idea that the universe itself was created by an evil force. Seems to have vanished into the ether.

@jeeprs,

jeeprs;89542 wrote:

No not you:-) there was some comment there from the institgator of this thread contempatling the idea that the universe itself was created by an evil force. Seems to have vanished into the ether.

I am guilty of initiating this thread. OK I do not believe we can attribute a human idea of good and evil to the Infinite Eternal (That is my perception of God)

To me God does not have good or evil attributes, those are human attributes God simple is that which always "Was"

The idea that evil is just the absence of good is interesting. Using this logic there is no such thing as cold, cold is only defined by how much heat the object has in it or its state of entropy.

Naught Degrees Centigrade is really a raging inferno if you equate it to absolute zero, is it not?. Only when (Still using the same logic) absolute Zero is reached can a thing be said to be Cold.

But use that logic with a fellow traveller in an Antarctic journey with the thermometer down at 40 below C % that it is "warm not cold he will tell you, you have lost your mind

In my opinion if one insists the prime attribute of god, creation or the universe is goodness then one must dismiss the idea of a living god.

Evil is an Awful reality, but I agree most people are intrinsically Good. The prime Attribute of God is most likely Goodness (I really hope so) Nevertheless God has allowed evil to exist for a reason only he/she/it can comprehend and , therefore the Universal Accountability for both Good and Evil sits firmly at the seat of God, Or God does not exist or there might be two opposing gods, one good the other evil

@Alan McDougall,

Well, I dont really belive in Good and Evil,
how about "Billy" kills "Bob"
Bob might think of this as Bad, because he is Dead.
But Billy might have gotten a few 1000 Bucks richer through the Murder, so hes Happy about what he did and thinks of it as Good.
My point is that Good and Evil are a point of view.

@Alan McDougall,

Alan,

Could you explain a little further why you feel there can be no "living God"?

Many thanks.

@ahmedjbh,

ahmedjbh;89631 wrote:

Alan,

Could you explain a little further why you feel there can be no "living God"?

Many thanks.

Hi

I did not mean there is no living God, if fact I am a theist who perceives God as the "Infinite Eternal Sublime One".

What I meant is; if there is no such reality as evil then there simply cannot be a God, because evil pervades our very existence. God is not the "Author of evil" but "he allows it to exist" for his "inscrutable" Divine purposes

@Alan McDougall,

evil exists in the sense I have laid out, however it is an intangible uncreated choice made by a person who has free will.

The fact that God has allowed man free will which can be used for evil is not unjust. It would be unjust if it was impossible for us to know what is evil/good.

If God had not given us free will, then we would have no responsibility for our actions, and it would then be unjust to punish us for them. So in order to have free will, there must always be the potential the user will cause evil, however giving someone the potential to cause evil, is not injust in itself.

For example, a man can use a car to take old people to the shops, or he could use it to kill people with. The man that sold him the car, bears no responsibility either way.

@ahmedjbh,

So this benevolent thinking god perceived of his creation and the consequences. With this knowledge of the consequences, what purpose does it serve? or are you saying he was not aware of the consequences ? if so, his not as perfect or omnipotent as scriptures would tell us.

You dont write a book about a murderer and then condemn the book, you wrote it for heavens sake.

@ahmedjbh,

ahmedjbh;89491 wrote:

Evil is a non-entity, it is what happens when you arent doing good, when you are not following God given guidance.

Alright, acknowledged.

ahmedjbh;89491 wrote:

Evil is not something that is created, as I have said in other threads, no action in itself is good or evil, it is the intention of the performer which determines the merit of the deed. If the deed is done with good intentions based on God given guidance, then it is deemed a good act.

For example, one man kills another.

Some may say, this is instant evil, any killing is plain evil.

If the "victim" was about to push a button that would wipe out millions and the only way to save those people was to kill that man, then this would be deemed good. If he killed him, simply because he wanted his possesions etc, then its evil.

The act was exactly the same, so where is the evil, what was created? nothing. I dont think it is fair to say God created evil. Evil is a choice that humanity can make, it is not an entity which is created or tangible.

Alright acknowledged but you are leaving something out here.

Let's modify your analogy a little. What if the "victim" was about to push the button that would kill millions but the person who could have done something to kill the "victim" didn't (stop) kill the "victim"? By your definition this would be evil because you were in a position to prevent the victim from killing millions but you didn't do it.

So under your definition god is evil through inactivity.

With this perspective we could say that god is in a position to prevent evil actions from happening but stands by and allows the evil to happen. This is nothing different than standing at the edge of a lake and watching a person drown even though you have the capability to do something to rescue them.

You can't pick and choose your style of evil/good because you are being biased and only wanting to examine it from one aspect while neglecting the full compass of what you are suggesting.

@ahmedjbh,

ahmedjbh;89661 wrote:

evil exists in the sense I have laid out, however it is an intangible uncreated choice made by a person who has free will.

The fact that God has allowed man free will which can be used for evil is not unjust. It would be unjust if it was impossible for us to know what is evil/good.

If God had not given us free will, then we would have no responsibility for our actions, and it would then be unjust to punish us for them. So in order to have free will, there must always be the potential the user will cause evil, however giving someone the potential to cause evil, is not injust in itself.

For example, a man can use a car to take old people to the shops, or he could use it to kill people with. The man that sold him the car, bears no responsibility either way.

Exactly creation is a duality allowed by God, if we did not know dark we would not love the light, if we did not know hate, love would not be appreciated. If we had no concept of war, we would not enjoy the peace, there is life and death, black and white, positive and negative, if we did not have cold we could not enjoy sitting by a warm fire in winter,

If we existed in a one-sided paradise of only good, love, peace, always light, love without end, never go hungry how could we appreciate a good meal if we have never hungered a little, thirst makes cold clear water the very essence of life?

We would be destroyed by an eternity of pleasure, no pain no gain, THAT IS WHY GOD PERMITS EVIL

If creation were not a duality like my above comments, then why should God provide us with a free will?

God knows how to handle his own creation

@Alan McDougall,

Alan McDougall;89666 wrote:

Exactly creation is a duality allowed by God, if we did not know dark we would not love the light, if we did not know hate, love would not be appreciated. If we had no concept of war, we would not enjoy the peace, there is life and death, black and white, positive and negative, if we did not have cold we could not enjoy sitting by a warm fire in winter,

If we existed in a one-sided paradise of only good, love, peace, always light, love without end, never go hungry how could we appreciate a good meal if we have never hungered a little, thirst makes cold clear water the very essence of life?

We would be destroyed by an eternity of pleasure, no pain no gain, THAT IS WHY GOD PERMITS EVIL

If creation were not a duality like my above comments, then why should God provide us with a free will?

God knows how to handle his own creation

Some never know hunger others die of hunger before they can walk, is that gods purpose ?

@xris,

xris;89669 wrote:

Some never know hunger others die of hunger before they can walk, is that gods purpose ?

Hi xris like I stated earlier, we infinitesimal humans cannot equate our petty little human attributes to an infinite eternal entity. That is like bashing your brains out on the brick wall of existence :brickwall:. We are closer to a cockroach than we are to God.

We also cannot state that god will do this or that if we do that and this, God the Primordial Alpha point will do exactly what he/she/it wants to do, we simply cannot prescribe to Gods true nature from our limited vantage point of mortal life. In fact God and nature are one

I stated in another thread that there is an afterlife and it is from that higher vantage point that we will begin our assent toward the almighty by a process of everlasting learning

@Krumple,

Krumple;89664 wrote:

Alright, acknowledged.

Alright acknowledged but you are leaving something out here.

Let's modify your analogy a little. What if the "victim" was about to push the button that would kill millions but the person who could have done something to kill the "victim" didn't (stop) kill the "victim"? By your definition this would be evil because you were in a position to prevent the victim from killing millions but you didn't do it.

So under your definition god is evil through inactivity.

With this perspective we could say that god is in a position to prevent evil actions from happening but stands by and allows the evil to happen. This is nothing different than standing at the edge of a lake and watching a person drown even though you have the capability to do something to rescue them.

You can't pick and choose your style of evil/good because you are being biased and only wanting to examine it from one aspect while neglecting the full compass of what you are suggesting.

It is a good point well made.

My understanding of things, is that God has created the universe and made the laws, and we will be judged upon the intentions of our deeds, and God will not interfere until the test is over. Then everyone will be "compensated" for what they have done/been through.

@ahmedjbh,

ahmedjbh;89682 wrote:

My understanding of things, is that God has created the universe and made the laws, and we will be judged upon the intentions of our deeds, and God will not interfere until the test is over. Then everyone will be "compensated" for what they have done/been through.

I see things a little differently. I live according to my heart, not by the hand of others nor a book. If I am wrong, so be it, but what can a god expect of me? To forgo my heart for some lack of evidence?

I don't trust that the Bible or the Quran have avoided corruption. I don't see how the attitude of man is so negative and untrustworthy yet belief that these books have avoided the wicked hand of man is absurd and not believable. I don't think any god has the power to prevent man from corrupting a system. Therefore I am left with only one thing to trust, and that is my own heart.

My own heart says there is no god. If I am wrong, so be it. But that god would know that what I say is honestly the truth. If I am tortured because of that, then that god was never worthy of my praise or worship. Because I would never hold anyone to such a degree of absolute without providing an absolute account. No god has provided an absolute account, therefore no god is qualified for judgment of the absolute.

@Alan McDougall,

Alan McDougall;89677 wrote:

Hi xris like I stated earlier, we infinitesimal humans cannot equate our petty little human attributes to an infinite eternal entity. That is like bashing your brains out on the brick wall of existence :brickwall:. We are closer to a cockroach than we are to God.

We also cannot state that god will do this or that if we do that and this, God the Primordial Alpha point will do exactly what he/she/it wants to do, we simply cannot prescribe to Gods true nature from our limited vantage point of mortal life. In fact God and nature are one

I stated in another thread that there is an afterlife and it is from that higher vantage point that we will begin our assent toward the almighty by a process of everlasting learning

Alan ,dear friend , you cant make claims for a certain gods intentions and then when questioned say its beyond our comprehension. If you dont know his intentions or the reason for our creation dont claim anything for him.thanks xris

@Krumple,

Krumple;89690 wrote:

... My own heart says there is no god. If I am wrong, so be it. But that god would know that what I say is honestly the truth...

Well put; namely, because this is the place I too arrived at a long time ago. As long as we allow ourselves to change and grow, where we feel the need, it's all good. But like you stated above, I will be honest with myself - insomuch as I'm able - and not buy into anything I don't feel the need to.

I think us nonbelievers ought to allow those of belief and faith their leeway, through our language and actions, and demonstrate to the world that vastly-divergent mindsets can, indeed, get along, share and place nice. Where many of us get into trouble, I think, is when we need someone else's validation to be comfortable with our own belief set. I don't need anyone else to not believe nor should I be interrogated or set to defend simply because I don't... crap, I'm digressing. The jury will disregard that last statement.

Thanks

@xris,

xris;89795 wrote:

Alan ,dear friend , you cant make claims for a certain gods intentions and then when questioned say its beyond our comprehension. If you dont know his intentions or the reason for our creation dont claim anything for him.thanks xris

Of course you are correct xris and I have absolutely no idea why he bothered to create humanity, I was just trying to respond to other posts

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