A Logical Theory about the Christian god

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Krumple
 
Reply Thu 14 May, 2009 06:18 am
@JeffD2,
Kayna,

The only reason I point that out is because of my experiences. If the soul were bound to a person it basically has no impact on the person what so ever. I see instead bio chemical processes happening that effect everything in human choice.

Sexual desire might arise after seeing something sexual however; this occurs chemically in the brain. If you were to remove the chemical process from the brain the impact of seeing something sexual wouldn't have the same effect.

The way in which people experience the world is based off these chemical processes and if you disturb them in even the littlest of ways you can create drastic changes in behavior.

A person who lacks sleep can become a completely different person.

A person under huge amounts of stress might even go beyond their moral code.

A person under the effects of some chemicals might say or do things they wouldn't otherwise.

A person who gets injured or is infected by an viral illness might drastically change their behavior and even their mood.

Some people can get paranoia simply by changes in brain chemistry.

There are so many things that naturally and unnaturally effect the workings of these bio chemical processes that you can't be certain that there is anything substantial about our personality. This leads me to believe that even our consciousness is nothing more than a bio chemical process and with this so called intellect we have deduced something to give us comfort when the thought of an end becomes a reality.
 
JeffD2
 
Reply Thu 14 May, 2009 09:15 pm
@Kaynafshar,
Kaynafshar wrote:
I for one do not understand why we need to assume God has to be logical to exist. What makes us assume God abides to our logic?



Is it possible to prove that Gods logic is the same as our logic? It seems to me that if God has "divine logic" and doesnt follow our logic, then trying to prove anything about his existence is meaningless. When someone tries to prove/disprove his existence, another person can come right back around and say "God has divine logic. So your proof is meaningless."

The whole "divine logic" thing just kinda throws all intellectuality out the window, as well as ruins the fun of philosophising haha. But if thats what it is, then thats what it is.
 
Lily
 
Reply Fri 15 May, 2009 09:47 am
@JeffD2,
JeffD2 wrote:
Is it possible to prove that Gods logic is the same as our logic? It seems to me that if God has "divine logic" and doesnt follow our logic


Wait a sec. I though you said that the Christian God is the laws of logic? Our laws of logic?
That doesn't make any sense. What do you mean?

The christian God can do the unexplainable, he (notice he, not it) can exist in a person, he talks, he changes his mind after talking to Moses and do a lot of stuff that, in my opinion, must mean that he is some sort of "person".
How does that fit together with your argument, or will you deny this?
 
Eudaimon
 
Reply Fri 15 May, 2009 10:16 am
@JeffD2,
Hello JeffD2! Thou art not the first to apply logic to the matter, Epicurus did one day the same. He taught that if gods exist they abide in state of bliss and indifference, therefore they cannot interfere in human affairs. Just because for desire to exist there must be lack of something. If god lacks something he is not real god, rather kind of higher intellect or alien:).
Another point was so called Problem of evil:
"God either wants to eliminate bad things and cannot, or can but does not want to, or neither wishes to nor can, or both wants to and can. If he wants to and cannot, then he is weak - and this does not apply to god. If he can but does not want to, then he is spiteful - which is equally foreign to god's nature. If he neither wants to nor can, he is both weak and spiteful, and so not a god. If he wants to and can, which is the only thing fitting for a god, where then do bad things come from? Or why does he not eliminate them?[1]"
 
JeffD2
 
Reply Fri 15 May, 2009 10:41 am
@Lily,
Lily wrote:
Wait a sec. I though you said that the Christian God is the laws of logic? Our laws of logic?
That doesn't make any sense. What do you mean?

The christian God can do the unexplainable, he (notice he, not it) can exist in a person, he talks, he changes his mind after talking to Moses and do a lot of stuff that, in my opinion, must mean that he is some sort of "person".
How does that fit together with your argument, or will you deny this?



I take back the whole "God is logic" thing. I can't explain Jesus. God must have "divine logic" if Jesus actually did these things.

If God has divine logic, then who am I to say what is possible for God.

The Christian God is everything, including "divine logic" and "our logic", and the Christian God is nothing all at the same time. He could very well be that "God creature" in the southpark episode I just watched the other day.
 
Kaynafshar
 
Reply Fri 15 May, 2009 10:16 pm
@Lily,
Lily wrote:
Wait a sec. I though you said that the Christian God is the laws of logic? Our laws of logic?
That doesn't make any sense. What do you mean?

The christian God can do the unexplainable, he (notice he, not it) can exist in a person, he talks, he changes his mind after talking to Moses and do a lot of stuff that, in my opinion, must mean that he is some sort of "person".
How does that fit together with your argument, or will you deny this?



im sorry and i dont wanna come off mean but there are countless things wrong with your comment.

1) the "Christian God" is no different from the Muslim God, the Jewish God, the Catholic God, etc. There is no God but God.
2) "I though you said that the Christian God is the laws of logic? Our laws of logic?" no we say that God does **not** have to abide by our logic in this reality.
3) God is not a He or a She, or it. God is God, and cannot be defined as a "person". we may have been created in his image, but we cannot catagorize God in a gender.
3a) Moses never changes Gods "mind" and if im thinking of the same story than it was merely God acting on Moses out of Gods own generosity. but what event exactly were you reffering to?
3b) you have the original biblical text? please quote where this was originally in the bible.

---------- Post added at 12:27 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:16 AM ----------

Eudaimon wrote:
Hello JeffD2! Thou art not the first to apply logic to the matter, Epicurus did one day the same. He taught that if gods exist they abide in state of bliss and indifference, therefore they cannot interfere in human affairs. Just because for desire to exist there must be lack of something. If god lacks something he is not real god, rather kind of higher intellect or alien:).
Another point was so called Problem of evil:
"God either wants to eliminate bad things and cannot, or can but does not want to, or neither wishes to nor can, or both wants to and can. If he wants to and cannot, then he is weak - and this does not apply to god. If he can but does not want to, then he is spiteful - which is equally foreign to god's nature. If he neither wants to nor can, he is both weak and spiteful, and so not a god. If he wants to and can, which is the only thing fitting for a god, where then do bad things come from? Or why does he not eliminate them?[1]"


to the problem of evil. according to religious belief, we humans chose to desert ourselves from God the day we chose sin over obedience. As Adam and Eve were casted out of the garden of eden, humanity was casted away from Gods undying protection. So basically, it is on our part to seek out God without a helping hand. If God were to intervene in every bad situation, i believe that would destroy free will. and who are we to say that all acts of evil ended in evil. if an innocent person was killed by an evil man, whos to say that the person wasnt gifted eternal blis in the after life rather than spending a hard life in our reality? whos to say that what we call a tragic death wasnt merely a gift from God or an "invitation back"?
 
Eudaimon
 
Reply Fri 15 May, 2009 10:47 pm
@JeffD2,
JeffD2 wrote:
I take back the whole "God is logic" thing. I can't explain Jesus. God must have "divine logic" if Jesus actually did these things.

If God has divine logic, then who am I to say what is possible for God.

The Christian God is everything, including "divine logic" and "our logic", and the Christian God is nothing all at the same time. He could very well be that "God creature" in the southpark episode I just watched the other day.


Nice statement. There is nothing for it but to recognize that god exists and does not exist simultaneously.

---------- Post added at 09:31 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:47 AM ----------

Kaynafshar wrote:
im sorry and i dont wanna come off mean but there are countless things wrong with your comment.

3) God is not a He or a She, or it. God is God, and cannot be defined as a "person". we may have been created in his image, but we cannot catagorize God in a gender.

That's a definition many christians will object to. It's thine own view, nothing more.

Christian god, Jewish god and Muslim god are absolutely different. Christian god forbids any violence whatsoever, whereas Jewish and Muslim ones permit that (and even demand sometimes!); for Christian it is better to be celibate unlike Jew or Muslim. I am just not speaking on difference in rituals. Ancient gnostics even taught that old testament god was actually devil.
Kaynafshar wrote:
to the problem of evil. according to religious belief, we humans chose to desert ourselves from God the day we chose sin over obedience. As Adam and Eve were casted out of the garden of eden, humanity was casted away from Gods undying protection. So basically, it is on our part to seek out God without a helping hand. If God were to intervene in every bad situation, i believe that would destroy free will. and who are we to say that all acts of evil ended in evil. if an innocent person was killed by an evil man, whos to say that the person wasnt gifted eternal blis in the after life rather than spending a hard life in our reality? whos to say that what we call a tragic death wasnt merely a gift from God or an "invitation back"?

If god loved people as father, he would have never let them to commit sin.
By the way, in order to enter the haven or eternal life we should commit certain deeds. That implies that we know what deeds. If someone lives in an african tribe where murder, polygamy and all the other sins are absolutely permissible, that is he does not know that they are bad, will he enter in the life eternal?
 
Lily
 
Reply Sat 16 May, 2009 03:15 am
@Kaynafshar,
Kaynafshar wrote:
im sorry and i dont wanna come off mean but there are countless things wrong with your comment.

1) the "Christian God" is no different from the Muslim God, the Jewish God, the Catholic God, etc. There is no God but God.
2) "I though you said that the Christian God is the laws of logic? Our laws of logic?" no we say that God does **not** have to abide by our logic in this reality.
3) God is not a He or a She, or it. God is God, and cannot be defined as a "person". we may have been created in his image, but we cannot catagorize God in a gender.
3a) Moses never changes Gods "mind" and if im thinking of the same story than it was merely God acting on Moses out of Gods own generosity. but what event exactly were you reffering to?
3b) you have the original biblical text? please quote where this was originally in the bible.


1) I can't really answer to that, since I'm not christian, jewish or muslim. But I think that they at least think of their God in different ways. And they can't have the exact same God because of Jesus. Jesus is God for the christians but not for the jew or muslims.
2):ya-think: I've realized that now. In my defence, it was our laws of logic in the beginning of this discussion.
3) Nice of you to say so. I don't like to think of God as a male, that's my biggest problem with christianity(that and the old testament). But still, God is "the Lord", "the father", "the son" and in the bible he is always refered to as "He".
3a&b) Okey, I can't find it, but I know it's there:sarcastic:. I'm pretty sure that He changes his mind a couple of times, but I know He does it when two of the tribes did something wrong. First God say to Moses that He's going to kill everyone and give Moses a new peolpe, but Moses persuades him to only kill the two tribes. Okey, I don't remember if it was two tribes or just some guys and don't remember how may i killed by letting the ground take them... I hope you understand which event I mean.
 
KaseiJin
 
Reply Sat 16 May, 2009 07:45 am
@Kaynafshar,
Kaynafshar;63313 wrote:

3b) you have the original biblical text? please quote where this was originally in the bible.



Lily wrote:
3a&b) Okey, I can't find it, but I know it's there


EXODUS 32:7~30 (and onward just a little)

Exodus (as in the text) tells us that Moses went up on Mt. Sinai to talk to YHWH and recieved the Decalogue in stone (along with a few other stuff). While there, Aaron was asked to make a golden calf, and the people started worshiping it as their god (even though they had been scared to death by the smoking, shaking mountain with flashes of light and a loud horn noise from the sky just a handful of weeks earlier).

YHWH told Moses to go down to his people, adding that Moses should let him (YHWH) be so that he could smoulder in his anger and then terminate the whole lot of them and make a new people for Moses. Moses talked him out of by sugguesting that it would, basically, be bad PR--I mean everyone on the whole face of the earth would say that YHWH had simply led them all out into the desert to slay them...and that bad rep would not be cool. YHWH heeded Moses message, and cooled down...somewhat...BUT then having gone down to the camp, Moses gets angry, slams the stones down on the ground to be forever lost to human knowledge (convenient) and tells those who want to be on YHWH's side to join him (Moses and Levites) and put on their swords and go from one end of the camp to the other killing their kin who do not want to be on YHWH's side. M gives us 3,ooo killed. The Latin Vulgate gives us 23,ooo killed.

But this kind of thing also happend to one king Jehoahaz, who was a bad king and who followed other relgious stuff, and was under punishment. That king also talked YHWH into cooling his anger and letting him off the hook. See 1 Kings 13:1~5. But we'll find similar type stuff, in varying degrees at other places, such as at Numbers 21:1~3; Joshua 10:123, 13 (YHWH let that guy tell him what to do...pretty much a command [or it could be simply a suggestion taken, depending on how you read it]); Judges 13:8, 9. And don't forget how Moses' wife saved his hide on the way back to Egypt by circumcising their son, and holding the foreskin to Moses' heel (I think it was...would have to double check on that) [boy, these folks (as per text) were weird]. . .

Anyway, there you have it. At your service. KJ


ps...If you really want to see the 'as original as you can get' text, I'd be happy to transliterate that for you too, Kaynafshar.
 
Lily
 
Reply Sat 16 May, 2009 08:09 am
@JeffD2,
Exodus 32:14 "Then God regreted the evil he had threatten to do to his people". Translated from my swedish Bible.
 
Alan McDougall
 
Reply Sat 16 May, 2009 11:08 am
@Krumple,
Krumple wrote:
And I say god is a flying pink elephant.

Who is closer to the truth? Neither, to be honest... I'll admit to it but will you?


Show me a flying pink elephant? We know in the absolute no such entity exists or could give you life

I AM CLOSER TO THE TRUTH AND WOULD BET MY LIFE ON IT

Would you bet your life on your ridiculous nonexistent flying pink elephant?, be real man frustration!

Your apparent dislike for God is the result of human religious hypocrisy if you knew God your views about him will change

On your death bed and you will die, could you say truthfully? "into the trunk of my flying pink elephant I commit my soul? Now that is really really funny :sarcastic: :perplexed:

Lilly you are right God did allow evil becuase the reality he created is a duality
 
Eudaimon
 
Reply Mon 18 May, 2009 10:22 am
@JeffD2,
I think that it was a mistake to speak about Christian god. Just because we don't know what god is "Christian". The bible is a compilation of text from many epochs and from people of different moral level. That is the reason that makes some people speak about "divine logic". Because only denying any logic whatsoever it is possible to say that god supported adulterer and killer David and somewhat later through Jesus taught non-violence and chastity.
 
Alan McDougall
 
Reply Mon 18 May, 2009 11:54 am
@Eudaimon,
Eudaimon wrote:
I think that it was a mistake to speak about Christian god. Just because we don't know what god is "Christian". The bible is a compilation of text from many epochs and from people of different moral level. That is the reason that makes some people speak about "divine logic". Because only denying any logic whatsoever it is possible to say that god supported adulterer and killer David and somewhat later through Jesus taught non-violence and chastity.


I agree God does not belong to any religion.Human logic is limited.

Atheists and theists don't typically disagree in defining what logic is or what it is not, but the understanding of the real meaning of the word logic is nevertheless critical because a proper understanding of logic is really necessary for the sake of sound reasoning, rational thinking, and reliable communication.
 
Kaynafshar
 
Reply Mon 18 May, 2009 02:08 pm
@Alan McDougall,
Alan McDougall wrote:
I agree God does not belong to any religion.Human logic is limited.

Atheists and theists don't typically disagree in defining what logic is or what it is not, but the understanding of the real meaning of the word logic is nevertheless critical because a proper understanding of logic is really necessary for the sake of sound reasoning, rational thinking, and reliable communication.



but with that i allways find these arguments pointless. if we cannot understand the concept of God then there really isnt a valid argument against or for God. But when we cannot Know we must have faith. and faith combined with reason is the only thing that can back up my belief to those who refuse to consider an answer when there is none.
 
Alan McDougall
 
Reply Mon 18 May, 2009 02:55 pm
@Kaynafshar,
Kaynafshar wrote:
but with that i allways find these arguments pointless. if we cannot understand the concept of God then there really isnt a valid argument against or for God. But when we cannot Know we must have faith. and faith combined with reason is the only thing that can back up my belief to those who refuse to consider an answer when there is none.


When the apostle Peter was full of doubt Jesus just said to him "Have faith in God Peter

Faith is just another word for trust, you trust the pilot of your airplane, or your cabby, or your doctor, then why should it be so hard to trust Almighty God?

You do not know how these people do what they do, but you put all your trust even your life in their hands

While we can never reach up and understand God the Infinite One, it is no problem for him to relate and resonate with our limited human understanding

God should be the "God of your understanding"
 
Eudaimon
 
Reply Tue 19 May, 2009 11:57 am
@Kaynafshar,
Kaynafshar wrote:
but with that i allways find these arguments pointless. if we cannot understand the concept of God then there really isnt a valid argument against or for God. But when we cannot Know we must have faith. and faith combined with reason is the only thing that can back up my belief to those who refuse to consider an answer when there is none.

For ancient people the concept of god or ghost was absolutely clear: they called such forces of nature human life depends on. So, they could explain what exactly they mean by god/ghost using reason. Even in Moses' books god had rather material body.
Then, with accumulation of knowledge of nature, this understanding of god has been becoming more and more "spiritual" or abstract.
So, Kaynafshar, what for do we need to believe? Is not the very idea of god only heritage from past generations? Nowadays we can explain the world through science and do not need to be afraid of any "gods". It is stupid to establish morality on uncertain things like god etc., but if ethics needs not god, what for should we belive? By the way, what dost thou mean by "God"?
 
Krumple
 
Reply Tue 19 May, 2009 12:22 pm
@JeffD2,
Quote:
Show me a flying pink elephant? We know in the absolute no such entity exists or could give you life


I can ask the same about your god. There is just as much evidence about flying pink elephants as there is for your god.

Quote:
I AM CLOSER TO THE TRUTH AND WOULD BET MY LIFE ON IT


Subjective conjecture and conviction based on something you WANT but can't be shown in reality.

Quote:
Would you bet your life on your ridiculous nonexistent flying pink elephant?, be real man frustration!


Why would I need to bet my life on anything nonexistent? I'm not trying to prove that the flying pink elephant exists. I'm not trying to force others to adopt a moral system that the flying pink elephant is supposedly set into stone. I'm not trying to force others to believe in the flying pink elephant.

Quote:
Your apparent dislike for God is the result of human religious hypocrisy if you knew God your views about him will change


The only dislike I have is the god portrayed in the bible. If it is honestly read you will notice the same thing I have. Put aside your denial. I never said there couldn't be a god that IS NOT the god in the bible. However; that god would have no interaction with our existence without causing disruption in that existence. Therefore it could never be known in any sense of the word known.

Quote:

On your death bed and you will die, could you say truthfully? "into the trunk of my flying pink elephant I commit my soul? Now that is really really funny


[/COLOR]Well to be honest, I don't think this is necessary. I find this response to the dying experience one based in fear of the unknown and an attempt to settle one's nerves while faced with the reality that this is the end. I can tell you that I won't do what you profess I will or would want to. How do I know? Because I have been near death before and this behavior never occurred to me. I find the dying experience intriguing and I wouldn't be surprised if all our negative connotations on the dying experience were all incorrect. I am a biological agent and have come to complete terms with the ceasing of those functions. I don't require a god to find peace in dying.:sarcastic: :perplexed:
 
Zetetic11235
 
Reply Tue 19 May, 2009 12:43 pm
@JeffD2,
JeffD2 wrote:
Is it possible to prove that Gods logic is the same as our logic? It seems to me that if God has "divine logic" and doesnt follow our logic, then trying to prove anything about his existence is meaningless. When someone tries to prove/disprove his existence, another person can come right back around and say "God has divine logic. So your proof is meaningless."

The whole "divine logic" thing just kinda throws all intellectuality out the window, as well as ruins the fun of philosophising haha. But if thats what it is, then thats what it is.


I think it goes even further than that. If God's logic is not our logic, then we cannot know god in any meaningful way. God could impart to us something that would guide us in some direction, but we would not be capable of understanding why or how. Also, if god's logic is not ours, and god could act outside of our logic, then god would have to act outside of the temporal reality that humans inhabit, otherwise we would observe an illogical event and it would instantly become temporal and logical as we humans are equipped to only view things in the way in which it is logically possible to view them.

Perhaps the initial assertion should be rephrased, 'When god interacts with humans, the result must hold under human logic'. So when a being operates in a less restrictive environment and looks in at a more restrictive one, he could alter things to the extent that it doesn't ruin the balance of the more restrictive environment, but no more. Hence, if god were to act in a manner that is outside of the scope of human logic, we would not perceive correctly it at the very least as our perception and our logic are quite intertwined.
 
Alan McDougall
 
Reply Tue 19 May, 2009 12:52 pm
@Krumple,
Krumple wrote:
I can ask the same about your god. There is just as much evidence about flying pink elephants as there is for your god.



Subjective conjecture and conviction based on something you WANT but can't be shown in reality.



Why would I need to bet my life on anything nonexistent? I'm not trying to prove that the flying pink elephant exists. I'm not trying to force others to adopt a moral system that the flying pink elephant is supposedly set into stone. I'm not trying to force others to believe in the flying pink elephant.



The only dislike I have is the god portrayed in the bible. If it is honestly read you will notice the same thing I have. Put aside your denial. I never said there couldn't be a god that IS NOT the god in the bible. However; that god would have no interaction with our existence without causing disruption in that existence. Therefore it could never be known in any sense of the word known.



[/color]Well to be honest, I don't think this is necessary. I find this response to the dying experience one based in fear of the unknown and an attempt to settle one's nerves while faced with the reality that this is the end. I can tell you that I won't do what you profess I will or would want to. How do I know? Because I have been near death before and this behavior never occurred to me. I find the dying experience intriguing and I wouldn't be surprised if all our negative connotations on the dying experience were all incorrect. I am a biological agent and have come to complete terms with the ceasing of those functions. I don't require a god to find peace in dying.:sarcastic: :perplexed:


You are most likely still far from you death bed and and perhaps you might not have suffered in life as I have.

We do at least know this for sure your "flying pink elephant absolutely does not exist".

If you were in intractable pain and dying your whole attitude might change , people with some sort of faith die much more peacefully than those without


But moving over to your position , god just might exist you know?

Have you ever thought to ask God if he exists? he might surprise you. I know God exists because I have been clinically dead. I saw the Light and Love on the other side of life "I stood in his light and love and knew peace"

I am not trying to convert you, in fact you are welcome to your atheism.

Anyway lets be friends that agree to disagree. There are no atheist in the trenches get it?

Peace, light and love!
 
Eudaimon
 
Reply Tue 19 May, 2009 02:00 pm
@Alan McDougall,
Alan McDougall wrote:
But moving over to your position , god just might exist you know?

Have you ever thought to ask God if he exists? he might surprise you. I know God exists because I have been clinically dead. I saw the Light and Love on the other side of life "I stood in his light and love and knew peace"

I am not trying to convert you, in fact you are welcome to your atheism.

Anyway lets be friends that agree to disagree. There are no atheist in the trenches get it?

I have just posted this some time ago but I shall repeat: God's existence equals to his non-existence for us. That is if he exists and is perfect, then he has no concerns about human life. Otherwise it would be possible for man to do harm for him through disobedience e.g.; and if it is possible to do him harm he is not perfect, rather kind of more powerful organism like alien.
Alan, I hope thou art aware that thy experiences in clinical death may seem for others to be just hallucinations.
And the fact that very few remain atheists in trenches shows only that they were not real atheists earlier, that is they used "atheism" for other goals (e,g, political). Fear is not a good argument of belief. It is easy to die peacefully without belief. I am recalling Epicurus.
 
 

 
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