A Logical Theory about the Christian god

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JeffD2
 
Reply Fri 8 May, 2009 11:47 am
Hello everybody. This is my first post. I just wrote this essay about how the god of Christianity and the laws of logic are the same thing. I know that this is probably the 129347128937192 post about God but still please read. Thanks!


The god that the Christians speak of is said to be omnipotent - that is, this god has the power to do anything that is possible. This implies that this god cannot do what is logically impossible to do. In other words, this god is restrained by the laws of logic. It is obvious that the laws of logic can't do what is logically impossible to do. Therefore, the laws of logic are just as powerful as this god. Thus the laws of logic are omnipotent. Omnipotence can only be applied to one thing in the universe, by definition. This implies that the laws of logic are the god that the Christians speak of.

The god that the Christians speak of is said to be omniscient - that is, this god knows everything that can possibly be known. This implies that this god cannot know what is logically impossible to know. It is obvious that the laws of logic can't know/deduce what is logically impossible to know/deduce. Therefore, the laws of logic are just as knowledgable as this god. Thus the laws of logic are omniscient. Omniscience can only be applied to one thing in the universe, by definition. This implies that the laws of logic are the god that the Christians speak of.

The god that the Christians speak of is said to be omnipresent - that is, this god is present everywhere all the time, except for places that are impossible for this god to exist. This implies that this god cannot exist in a place that is logically impossible to be in. It is obvious that the laws of logic can't exist in a place that is logically impossible to be in. Therefore, the laws of logic are in the same places as this god. Thus the laws of logic are omnipresent.

Omnipresence can only be applied to one thing in the universe, by definition. This implies that the laws of logic are the god that the Christians speak of. It follows that if there is a place where this god can't exist, or Hell, then it is a state of mind, or a place, where the laws of logic do not exist - insanity.

The god that the Christians speak of is said to be truth - that is, this god is the unified consistency of statements and their correspondence with the facts of reality. This implies that it is logically impossible for this god to lie. It is obvious that it is logically impossible for the laws of logic to lie, or deduce something that isn't true. Therefore, the laws of logic are just as truthful as this god. Thus, the laws of logic are truth. Truth can only be applied to one thing in this universe, by definition. This implies that the laws of logic are the god that the Christians speak of.

The god that the Christians speak of is said to be omnibenevolent - that is, this god is perfect, and this god is morally good. In other words, this god is perfectly good, as opposed to perfectly evil. This implies that this god is incapable of doing anything that could be considered evil. It is obvious that the laws of logic are incapable of doing anything that could be considered evil (a lack of logic, or insanity). Therefore, the laws of logic are just as good as this god. Thus, the laws of logic are omnibenevolent. Omnibenevolence can only be applied to one thing in this universe, by definition. This implies that the laws of logic are the god that the Christians speak of.
 
Lily
 
Reply Sat 9 May, 2009 03:47 am
@JeffD2,
But the laws of logic wouldn't care if you prayed or went to church. And the laws of logic cannot be Jesus, a man who walked on water and made a crowd un-hungry with just some pieces of bread and fish. In school we learn that all our energy comes from the sun, nothing can disapear or appear out of nothing, it can just be converted between different forms. God can create energy, I mean you don't split the red sea without energy. So if you can't explain that I can't belive you.
 
rhinogrey
 
Reply Sat 9 May, 2009 01:18 pm
@JeffD2,
The laws of logic are not a personal agent. Therefore, while I find your argument to be compelling, it will never be compelling for any Christian. Ever.
 
JeffD2
 
Reply Sun 10 May, 2009 07:24 pm
@Lily,
Lily wrote:
But the laws of logic wouldn't care if you prayed or went to church. And the laws of logic cannot be Jesus, a man who walked on water and made a crowd un-hungry with just some pieces of bread and fish. In school we learn that all our energy comes from the sun, nothing can disapear or appear out of nothing, it can just be converted between different forms. God can create energy, I mean you don't split the red sea without energy. So if you can't explain that I can't belive you.



We have magicians in the modern world who do actions that seem like miracles all the time, but in reality, they are just optical illusions. With that said, is it more logical that Jesus actually walked on water, fed a crowd with a "few pieces of bread", etc., or is it more logical that Jesus was a magician/optical illusionist/con artist whos secrets were never revealed?

---------- Post added at 09:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:24 PM ----------

rhinogrey wrote:
The laws of logic are not a personal agent. Therefore, while I find your argument to be compelling, it will never be compelling for any Christian. Ever.


Is the god that the Christians speak of a personal agent? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought he was untangible.
 
Krumple
 
Reply Sun 10 May, 2009 07:35 pm
@JeffD2,
I can disprove this theory by simply posing a question to this so called logical god.

"Give me a riddle in which you can not solve".

If everything you explained were in fact true then god would not be able to fulfill this request. Therefore saying god is logical is an untrue statement. Sorry...
 
JeffD2
 
Reply Sun 10 May, 2009 08:00 pm
@Krumple,
Krumple wrote:
I can disprove this theory by simply posing a question to this so called logical god.

"Give me a riddle in which you can not solve".

If everything you explained were in fact true then god would not be able to fulfill this request. Therefore saying god is logical is an untrue statement. Sorry...


Could you clarify on what your trying to say. I dont understand how it disproves anything.
 
rhinogrey
 
Reply Sun 10 May, 2009 08:42 pm
@JeffD2,
JeffD2 wrote:

Is the god that the Christians speak of a personal agent? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought he was untangible.

He is considered to be a disembodied person, yes.

Besides, I think logic cannot have an ethical element.
 
JeffD2
 
Reply Sun 10 May, 2009 09:20 pm
@Krumple,
Krumple wrote:
I can disprove this theory by simply posing a question to this so called logical god.

"Give me a riddle in which you can not solve".

If everything you explained were in fact true then god would not be able to fulfill this request. Therefore saying god is logical is an untrue statement. Sorry...



If god would not be able to fulfill this request, then it is impossible for god to fullfill this request. In other words, to fullfill this request would be illogical. The laws of logic cannot do what is illogical. I dont see a problem.

---------- Post added at 11:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:20 PM ----------

rhinogrey wrote:
He is considered to be a disembodied person, yes.

Besides, I think logic cannot have an ethical element.



Disembodied person?!?!?!? So he's a person, but he has no body? He's a person, but he's not a person? If you dont have a body, then you are intangible, just like logic.


Why cant ethics be logically proved?
 
Kaynafshar
 
Reply Sun 10 May, 2009 09:39 pm
@JeffD2,
*quoting the original post*

Lets keep it simple, sweet, and to the point. God and his omnipotence and omnipresence may not be logical in terms of our comprehension. Things such as God making a boulder even he cannot lift, or arguments such as God being unable to create a married bachelor. Now according to Abrahemic religions, God is infact omnipotent and omnipresent at the same time. logically, this causes many contradictions, but also according to Abrahemic religions, things are said such as "God works in mysterious ways". So why would it be so wrong for God to exist, but be illogical at the same time? Can't we assume that there is* a logic out there that we cannot understands in our current reality? picture a very small child. now try and teach him or her quantum physics. to the child this knolledge is illogical and confusing. why is it that we cannot simply be in the same situation as that child. So things that seem illogical to us, may not be illogical in truth, but just a lack of understanding on our parts. God may have made us in his image, but as humans there are certain things we are not meant to understand yet.
 
rhinogrey
 
Reply Sun 10 May, 2009 09:57 pm
@JeffD2,
JeffD2 wrote:

Disembodied person?!?!?!? So he's a person, but he has no body? He's a person, but he's not a person? If you dont have a body, then you are intangible, just like logic.

You're confusing "person" with "human." The theistic conception of God is that he is personal. Remember, the theists don't equate our "personal essence" with our bodies.


Quote:
Why cant ethics be logically proved?
Ever heard of Kant?
 
Tonfish
 
Reply Mon 11 May, 2009 03:47 am
@JeffD2,
I say: "Everyone lies."

Logic fails many times. Correct me if I'm wrong, and explain how that statement in the first line works :/ because in my opinion: If that sentence is true, then what I said is a lie, then it's true. But if that sentence is not true, then what I said is true, and then it's a lie....
 
Lily
 
Reply Mon 11 May, 2009 09:14 am
@JeffD2,
JeffD2 wrote:
We have magicians in the modern world who do actions that seem like miracles all the time, but in reality, they are just optical illusions. With that said, is it more logical that Jesus actually walked on water, fed a crowd with a "few pieces of bread", etc., or is it more logical that Jesus was a magician/optical illusionist/con artist whos secrets were never revealed?



Seriously? You think the cristians think that their god came to the earth as a magician who couldn't make miracles? Oh, no:nonooo: That's what bugs me the most about your arguments. You cannot just say what cristians belive in, especially not if you make their god to the laws of logic and a hypocritical magician. :poke-eye:The question wasn't what is God or how Jesus did his miracles, it was who is the christian god. Of course it's possible that Jesus wasn't God in any way, but that is not what the christians belive. Actually, one of the basic things in christianity is accepting Jesus as God.
 
Alan McDougall
 
Reply Mon 11 May, 2009 09:52 am
@JeffD2,
JeffD2 wrote:
Hello everybody. This is my first post. I just wrote this essay about how the god of Christianity and the laws of logic are the same thing. I know that this is probably the 129347128937192 post about God but still please read. Thanks!




The god that the Christians speak of is said to be omnipotent - that is, this god has the power to do anything that is possible. This implies that this god cannot do what is logically impossible to do. In other words, this god is restrained by the laws of logic. It is obvious that the laws of logic can't do what is logically impossible to do. Therefore, the laws of logic are just as powerful as this god. Thus the laws of logic are omnipotent. Omnipotence can only be applied to one thing in the universe, by definition. This implies that the laws of logic are the god that the Christians speak of.
The god that the Christians speak of is said to be omniscient - that is, this god knows everything that can possibly be known. This implies that this god cannot know what is logically impossible to know. It is obvious that the laws of logic can't know/deduce what is logically impossible to know/deduce. Therefore, the laws of logic are just as knowledgable as this god. Thus the laws of logic are omniscient. Omniscience can only be applied to one thing in the universe, by definition. This implies that the laws of logic are the god that the Christians speak of.
The god that the Christians speak of is said to be omnipresent - that is, this god is present everywhere all the time, except for places that are impossible for this god to exist. This implies that this god cannot exist in a place that is logically impossible to be in. It is obvious that the laws of logic can't exist in a place that is logically impossible to be in. Therefore, the laws of logic are in the same places as this god. Thus the laws of logic are omnipresent. Omnipresence can only be applied to one thing in the universe, by definition. This implies that the laws of logic are the god that the Christians speak of. It follows that if there is a place where this god can't exist, or Hell, then it is a state of mind, or a place, where the laws of logic do not exist - insanity.
The god that the Christians speak of is said to be truth - that is, this god is the unified consistency of statements and their correspondence with the facts of reality. This implies that it is logically impossible for this god to lie. It is obvious that it is logically impossible for the laws of logic to lie, or deduce something that isn't true. Therefore, the laws of logic are just as truthful as this god. Thus, the laws of logic are truth. Truth can only be applied to one thing in this universe, by definition. This implies that the laws of logic are the god that the Christians speak of.
The god that the Christians speak of is said to be omnibenevolent - that is, this god is perfect, and this god is morally good. In other words, this god is perfectly good, as opposed to perfectly evil. This implies that this god is incapable of doing anything that could be considered evil. It is obvious that the laws of logic are incapable of doing anything that could be considered evil (a lack of logic, or insanity). Therefore, the laws of logic are just as good as this god. Thus, the laws of logic are omnibenevolent. Omnibenevolence can only be applied to one thing in this universe, by definition. This implies that the laws of logic are the god that the Christians speak of.


Well in Christianity there is one thing that God cannot do It is impossible for God to lie (and still be God)

God is not omni- benevolence or omni- everything, if god were then of course he must also be omni- stupid would he not

God can and does do evil Isiah 45 "I form the light and make the dark, I create peace and I make evil I God do all these things" (from memory)

I dont think we can equate God with human attributes, god is far and above us "His ways are not our ways and his thought are as hight as the heaven when compared to our" (heaven is really really high)

God set down the laws of logic so I think he is constrained by them

I do not think God is Infinite, although he is eternal (a circle of ceaseless creation)

God is evolving and moving towards infinity

God does not belong to Christians or any religious faith God simply is who he


  • IS

A little girl was intensely drawing something in class, the teacher asked her
What are you drawing". I am drawing god she replied. The teacher said , no one knows what god looks like

They will in a minute of two replied the little girl

 
Kaynafshar
 
Reply Mon 11 May, 2009 08:43 pm
@Alan McDougall,
Alan McDougall wrote:
Well in Christianity there is one thing that God cannot do It is impossible for God to lie (and still be God)

God is not omni- benevolence or omni- everything, if god were then of course he must also be omni- stupid would he not

God can and does do evil Isiah 45 "I form the light and make the dark, I create peace and I make evil I God do all these things" (from memory)

I dont think we can equate God with human attributes, god is far and above us "His ways are not our ways and his thought are as hight as the heaven when compared to our" (heaven is really really high)

God set down the laws of logic so I think he is constrained by them

I do not think God is Infinite, although he is eternal (a circle of ceaseless creation)

God is evolving and moving towards infinity

God does not belong to Christians or any religious faith God simply is who he


  • IS
A little girl was intensely drawing something in class, the teacher asked her
What are you drawing". I am drawing god she replied. The teacher said , no one knows what god looks like

They will in a minute of two replied the little girl



You cannot assume God cannot lie, it is just he does not. God according to my faith is a "moral" God, and loves us all. What God says is truth in my eyes.

What do you define as evil? how can we as humans judge Gods actions from Good and Bad when we cannot ourselves give a universal meaning to the word "Good".

I agree, God works in mysterious ways, and what certain logic to God may not be logical to us because certain things may be uncomprehensible to our minds as physical, human beings in this reality.

I disagree, God made us in his immage, and in tern gave us free will to question ourselves. It is never said that we were given the same mindset of God, or his reasoning.

I disagree, I believe God is infinite in power, and can be in all places at the same time.

What do you mean by "God is evolving"?

I agree. We may all view God in different ways, and worship him countless ways, but he is the only God nonetheless. i believe it is not in a exclusivists view of religion that the path to rightiousness is found, but in the daily morals one follows with the willingness to stay on the path to God and to keep an open and loving heart.
 
Krumple
 
Reply Mon 11 May, 2009 09:31 pm
@rhinogrey,
"Could you clarify on what your trying to say. I don't understand how it disproves anything."

If god is all knowing then no matter what riddle he gave he would already know it's solution. Therefore to give a riddle which he can not solve would imply that he would not be all knowing. He would have to turn off his knowing to create the riddle but then he wouldn't be all knowing.

You can't make a riddle you can't solve if you are
omniscient.

To go along with this, I like to do several thought journeys or experiments in god's shoes. I know many would gasp or scoff at doing such a thing, since many like to claim that you can't do such a thing. I disagree and here is one example...

Imagine that you know everything, how could you entertain yourself? You couldn't watch a movie, because you would know the ending. Ever had someone spoil a movie for you? How about trying to watch the same movie twice even though you already know whats going to happen? Some do this but it never captures you the same way it did when you first saw it, which is why we re watch them.

Could you play a game with yourself? No, you couldn't play hide and go seek because you would know where you were hiding. You couldn't play a guessing game because you would already know what to guess.

You can see where I am going with this thought experiment. Now imagine how lonely and incredibly boring an existence god would have. I feel absolute pity for such an existence and I believe a god existing in such a way would too.

So perhaps out of god's absolute misery he destroyed himself, committed god suicide which was the big bang. And everything that came out of that is what the universe is made up of. The logic and intelligent information has been tossed out like shrapnel. Perhaps consciousness is just a small chunk of what god's awareness was.

Do I believe what I'm saying here? No, let me remind you, however; if god were all knowing then god would have known the results of such an act even before doing it. So would it be intentional? If it is then we have to continue the thought experiment with what is the motivation of such a suicide?

It's 100% pure speculation. It doesn't help or solve anything, but interesting to do.
 
rhinogrey
 
Reply Mon 11 May, 2009 10:57 pm
@JeffD2,
If God were omniscient it would be because he exists outside causality and therefore experiences time simultaneously.

That is why we can only know God indirectly.
 
Krumple
 
Reply Tue 12 May, 2009 12:10 am
@JeffD2,
"That is why we can only know God indirectly."

If this is a true statement then you can not take the bible to be consistent with god in any way. There are lots of stuff in it that assume a direct connection so both can't logically be true.

If you say they can both be true then that is a contradiction, a lack of logic. God would therefore have to be illogical.

Here is the other part that makes absolutely no sense. If god created everything except for evil then evil would have to be a product produced outside the god constant. That means something resides outside so god couldn't be all encompassing. The only way you can make that statement true is to say god is also evil. But I rarely ever hear a god believer making that claim. It's practically zero.
 
JeffD2
 
Reply Tue 12 May, 2009 09:56 am
@Krumple,
""""If god is all knowing then no matter what riddle he gave he would already know it's solution. Therefore to give a riddle which he can not solve would imply that he would not be all knowing. He would have to turn off his knowing to create the riddle but then he wouldn't be all knowing.

You can't make a riddle you can't solve if you are
omniscient. """"


I think that your confused with the definition of omniscience, omnipotence, etc.

God does not know everything. God knows everything that is possible to know. These means that if it is illogical to know, then God can't do it. He does not have infinite knowledge or power or anything. Infinite omnipotence, omniscience, etc. would quickly lead to contradictions.

If you ask God to give a riddle that he does not know the answer to and he cant do it, then its simply illogical for him to give such a riddle. This doesnt hurt my argument, because I'm saying that God cant do or know things that are illogical to know.

If you ask God to give a riddle that he does not know the answer to and he can do it, then god was powerful/knowledgeable enough to give the riddle, but he is not knowledgeable enough to know the answer. This implies that giving the riddle was logical, but knowing the answer is illogical. This doesnt hurt my argument either.


God is finite and unchanging. What is illogical for him to do now is illogical for him to do in the future and was illogical for him to do in the past.
 
Alan McDougall
 
Reply Tue 12 May, 2009 01:52 pm
@Kaynafshar,
Kaynafshar wrote:
You cannot assume God cannot lie, it is just he does not. God according to my faith is a "moral" God, and loves us all. What God says is truth in my eyes.

What do you define as evil? how can we as humans judge Gods actions from Good and Bad when we cannot ourselves give a universal meaning to the word "Good".

I agree, God works in mysterious ways, and what certain logic to God may not be logical to us because certain things may be uncomprehensible to our minds as physical, human beings in this reality.

I disagree, God made us in his immage, and in tern gave us free will to question ourselves. It is never said that we were given the same mindset of God, or his reasoning.

I disagree, I believe God is infinite in power, and can be in all places at the same time.

What do you mean by "God is evolving"?

I agree. We may all view God in different ways, and worship him countless ways, but he is the only God nonetheless. i believe it is not in a exclusivists view of religion that the path to rightiousness is found, but in the daily morals one follows with the willingness to stay on the path to God and to keep an open and loving heart.


Well if God has finished all his work and creation he must be really really bored. I see creation as a ceaseless cycle and God the author of that ceaseless cycles of creation and destruction

An analogy. we make a sand castle on the beach dwell on it for a moment and destroy it and start all over in the hope the next castle will be better than the former one

Castle equates to universe
 
Kaynafshar
 
Reply Tue 12 May, 2009 05:19 pm
@Alan McDougall,
I for one do not understand why we need to assume God has to be logical to exist. What makes us assume God abides to our logic?
 
 

 
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