"That is why we can only know God indirectly."

If this is a true statement then you can not take the bible to be consistent with god in any way. There are lots of stuff in it that assume a direct connection so both can't logically be true.

If you say they can both be true then that is a contradiction, a lack of logic. God would therefore have to be illogical.

Here is the other part that makes absolutely no sense. If god created everything except for evil then evil would have to be a product produced outside the god constant. That means something resides outside so god couldn't be all encompassing. The only way you can make that statement true is to say god is also evil. But I rarely ever hear a god believer making that claim. It's practically zero.

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Here is another aspect. If god were all knowing then wouldn't god have known there was going to be a snake in the garden that would tempt eve to consume the apple? He would HAVE to had known yet punishes them anyways. Knowing the event would happen yet continuing on as if nothing is going to happen. That sounds rather sinister to me. In fact it almost sounds contrived an planed. Logically it sounds like he knew damn well that eve was going to eat and that was his plan all along. Which makes him nothing other than evil.

now your assuming we dont have free will.

Just because God *can* know something doesnt mean he will *choose* to know it.

The act of the snake tempting adam and eve was a test to prove themselves in my opinion, and thats based on my belief in free will.

and again you assume you can define evil and good based on our societies definition. a father testing his son for loyalty does not sound sinister to me.

You argue because God created satan, that he must have created evil as well.

but if we have free will, then God gives us the ability to think and choose for ourselves. and that includes satan.

God allows evil to effect us in order to prove our worth, and mind you evil is not going to be around forever.

but again i am basing all my opions on my faith. i could be as wrong as anyone.

we can never assume anything.

There is no God but God There is no Christian God, God is God

Ridiculous argument.

That was an argument

Maybe I'm just a bit thick or something, but I really don't understand how anyone can claim that the christian God is the laws of logic, yes God could be the laws of logic, but the christian God, no. Genesis 1:26 "And God said:'Let us make humans as our own image'". Well, I don't know about you guys, but it's not very often I feel like the laws of logic:listening:. Can laws talk?:deep-thought: God is very often acting similar to a human in the Bible. And I don't think it matters so much if you could construe the Bible so God is the laws of logic, it's what they meant when they wrote it down. But feel free to create your own religion, it's okey with me..

In John 1:1, it states that Christ is the "logos", which is just as easily translated "reason" or "logic" as "word".

How did I assume no free Will? You completely misunderstood what I said. I am saying if god is all knowing he knows our choices before we even make them. That doesn't contradict free will in any way.

That is absurd to say and the ONLY reason you said it is because it contradicts your belief. It would be like me saying once I see something I can choose to not see it. That is not a possibility. The only way god could be all knowing and turn it off or choose not to know would ONLY be that he is NOT all knowing then.

You ONLY need to test a being when you are UNCERTAIN of the choice it will make. So once again god would have to be limited. The only reason a teacher tests their students is to see how much of the material they comprehended. If you are all knowing then you should by default already know their comprehension. Thus for god to be all knowing he would have to know what was going to happen before it happened. Therefore no need to test.

I don't define good or evil, to me they are the same thing. People just pick and choose what they want good or evil to be to support their behavior or beliefs. In reality they are the same thing.

Yes, you can't do something in which you were not already created to do. Just like a computer program can't subtract if you did not design it to subtract. Christians always like to ignore this because it points directly at god being evil which they can't comprehend.


I don't believe in free will. Sure you have choices but you are never including one possible other choice so I reject free will concept. Why? Because you believe god gives only two choices. Either accept jesus or reject jesus. Those are the only choices you have. But there is another option. To NOT play the stupid game and I refuse to choose either A or B but you will lump me into the category of rejection. But I never rejected because I refuse to be apart of it. I choose choice C as to not pick. Where is that choice?


You can not have good without evil. Good would cease to exist if you get rid of evil. It would be like trying to cut off one side of a coin to preserve the other side. You can't and you destroy the coin trying to do it. The god and satan concepts are man made delusions of a dualistic world view.


Yet you have assumed. So you are not even following your own advice.

In John 1:1, it states that Christ is the "logos", which is just as easily translated "reason" or "logic" as "word".

""""""""The bible has been translated over so many times and changed over so many years that i dont think we can use the literal meanings of the words when we dont even know what the word originally was. especially since our own religions leaders have changed their minds on what they want in it at least 3 times in the past 100 or so years.""""""""""

I've heared about this from a couple of people that I know in real life. If this is true, then the PRESENT DAY bible cant tell us anything useful about God and shouldnt be considered a valid source. Since the bible is really the only "source" of God, we can never know what Christianity is truely about. This kinda destroys my argument if this is true, because how can anybody know if the ORIGINAL bible said that God was omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, etc.. Not only does it destroy my arguement, it destroys Christianity.

and you make these statements as if you yourself understand the way it works. we have no idea how angels such as satan were created or think, let alone what rules our own logic follows. like ive said before, we cant know that our logic is right. there can be some things that we are simply not able to understand. illogical things to us can be simple logic to God.

You can say the same thing about flying pink elephants...

There is not flying pink elephants but flying pink elephants. There is no children's tale of flying pink elephants, flying pink elephants are flying pink elephants.

Ridiculous argument.

"Statement of fact, not argument, in my humble opinion God is the omniscience that created, pervades and sustains all of creation

"The Prime Mover" The "Uncaused Cause of Existence", the Beginner and Ender of Ceaseless cycles of Creation", "Reason for Reality" "First Thought" "Infinite Source"

"Prime Consciousness" "Original Thinker" "Cosmic Consciousness"

"Life"

"God equates to all Existence"

Alright kayna, I'll accept this argument and just to show you how much it makes sense to me I can make this statement based of this profound truth you gave me.

God could be the evil one, god could be the ultimate human manipulator. God could be the universes prankster. God therefore could have absolutely no consideration for you what so ever and the creation was nothing more than a way to entertain himself by watching beings suffer.

After all, like you said, "we cant know that our logic is right." This implies that all the sayings that god is love could be just as illogical as my original argument.

And I say god is a flying pink elephant.

Who is closer to the truth? Neither, to be honest... I'll admit to it but will you?