A Logical Theory about the Christian god

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rhinogrey
 
Reply Tue 12 May, 2009 06:16 pm
@Krumple,
Krumple wrote:
"That is why we can only know God indirectly."

If this is a true statement then you can not take the bible to be consistent with god in any way. There are lots of stuff in it that assume a direct connection so both can't logically be true.

If you say they can both be true then that is a contradiction, a lack of logic. God would therefore have to be illogical.

Here is the other part that makes absolutely no sense. If god created everything except for evil then evil would have to be a product produced outside the god constant. That means something resides outside so god couldn't be all encompassing. The only way you can make that statement true is to say god is also evil. But I rarely ever hear a god believer making that claim. It's practically zero.


None of that changes the fact that if God existed outside of causality, your arguments fail to have any meaning.
 
Krumple
 
Reply Tue 12 May, 2009 07:22 pm
@JeffD2,
"If you ask God to give a riddle that he does not know the answer to and he cant do it, then its simply illogical for him to give such a riddle. This doesnt hurt my argument, because I'm saying that God cant do or know things that are illogical to know."

Yes it does hurt your argument because you have based your logic off speculation. You can't say for absolute certainty that it is illogical for him to give such a riddle. YOU have decided that it is illogical and then go on to base the rest of your argument on what YOU think is illogical for that god. That isn't a sound argument at all...

---------- Post added at 06:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:22 PM ----------

"None of that changes the fact that if God existed outside of causality, your arguments fail to have any meaning."

We aren't talking about where god would reside, I am referring to creating. To make something would mean he MADE evil. Not to mention that once again god existing outside of causality is a speculation. Which also IS inconsistent with the bible. There are lots of references where god is talking to people. So you can reside outside causality yet interact with it? Not only that but there are things that mention about god walking with Adam in the garden of Eden. So once again you can reside outside causality yet be able to go between them?

Here is another aspect. If god were all knowing then wouldn't god have known there was going to be a snake in the garden that would tempt eve to consume the apple? He would HAVE to had known yet punishes them anyways. Knowing the event would happen yet continuing on as if nothing is going to happen. That sounds rather sinister to me. In fact it almost sounds contrived an planed. Logically it sounds like he knew damn well that eve was going to eat and that was his plan all along. Which makes him nothing other than evil.
 
Kaynafshar
 
Reply Tue 12 May, 2009 08:08 pm
@Krumple,
Krumple wrote:
"

Here is another aspect. If god were all knowing then wouldn't god have known there was going to be a snake in the garden that would tempt eve to consume the apple? He would HAVE to had known yet punishes them anyways. Knowing the event would happen yet continuing on as if nothing is going to happen. That sounds rather sinister to me. In fact it almost sounds contrived an planed. Logically it sounds like he knew damn well that eve was going to eat and that was his plan all along. Which makes him nothing other than evil.


now your assuming we dont have free will. Just because God *can* know something doesnt mean he will *choose* to know it. The act of the snake tempting adam and eve was a test to prove themselves in my opinion, and thats based on my belief in free will. and again you assume you can define evil and good based on our societies definition. a father testing his son for loyalty does not sound sinister to me.

You argue because God created satan, that he must have created evil as well. but if we have free will, then God gives us the ability to think and choose for ourselves. and that includes satan. God allows evil to effect us in order to prove our worth, and mind you evil is not going to be around forever.

but again i am basing all my opions on my faith. i could be as wrong as anyone.

we can never assume anything.
 
JeffD2
 
Reply Tue 12 May, 2009 09:02 pm
@Kaynafshar,
"None of that changes the fact that if God existed outside of causality, your arguments fail to have any meaning."


If God exists outside of causality, then God is illogical. If God is illogical, then God is insane. Therefore, if God exists outside of causality, then God is insane. Christians will just about always admit to God being insane. Therefore, God does not exist outside of causality. He must be a logical god.

If God doesnt exist outside of causility, then I dont understand why you insist my arguement is meaningless.

---------- Post added at 11:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:02 PM ----------

"Christians will just about always admit to God being insane. "

I meant "Christians will just about always admit to God not being insane. " Sorry for the typo.
 
Krumple
 
Reply Tue 12 May, 2009 10:13 pm
@Kaynafshar,
Quote:
now your assuming we dont have free will.


How did I assume no free Will? You completely misunderstood what I said. I am saying if god is all knowing he knows our choices before we even make them. That doesn't contradict free will in any way.

Quote:
Just because God *can* know something doesnt mean he will *choose* to know it.


That is absurd to say and the ONLY reason you said it is because it contradicts your belief. It would be like me saying once I see something I can choose to not see it. That is not a possibility. The only way god could be all knowing and turn it off or choose not to know would ONLY be that he is NOT all knowing then.

Quote:
The act of the snake tempting adam and eve was a test to prove themselves in my opinion, and thats based on my belief in free will.


You ONLY need to test a being when you are UNCERTAIN of the choice it will make. So once again god would have to be limited. The only reason a teacher tests their students is to see how much of the material they comprehended. If you are all knowing then you should by default already know their comprehension. Thus for god to be all knowing he would have to know what was going to happen before it happened. Therefore no need to test.

Quote:
and again you assume you can define evil and good based on our societies definition. a father testing his son for loyalty does not sound sinister to me.


I don't define good or evil, to me they are the same thing. People just pick and choose what they want good or evil to be to support their behavior or beliefs. In reality they are the same thing.

Quote:
You argue because God created satan, that he must have created evil as well.


Yes, you can't do something in which you were not already created to do. Just like a computer program can't subtract if you did not design it to subtract. Christians always like to ignore this because it points directly at god being evil which they can't comprehend.


Quote:
but if we have free will, then God gives us the ability to think and choose for ourselves. and that includes satan.


I don't believe in free will. Sure you have choices but you are never including one possible other choice so I reject free will concept. Why? Because you believe god gives only two choices. Either accept jesus or reject jesus. Those are the only choices you have. But there is another option. To NOT play the stupid game and I refuse to choose either A or B but you will lump me into the category of rejection. But I never rejected because I refuse to be apart of it. I choose choice C as to not pick. Where is that choice?

Quote:
God allows evil to effect us in order to prove our worth, and mind you evil is not going to be around forever.


You can not have good without evil. Good would cease to exist if you get rid of evil. It would be like trying to cut off one side of a coin to preserve the other side. You can't and you destroy the coin trying to do it. The god and satan concepts are man made delusions of a dualistic world view.

Quote:
but again i am basing all my opions on my faith. i could be as wrong as anyone.

we can never assume anything.


Yet you have assumed. So you are not even following your own advice.
 
Alan McDougall
 
Reply Tue 12 May, 2009 11:18 pm
@JeffD2,
There is no God but God There is no Christian God, God is God

Statement not directed at anyone specifically
 
Krumple
 
Reply Wed 13 May, 2009 01:33 am
@Alan McDougall,
Quote:
There is no God but God There is no Christian God, God is God


You can say the same thing about flying pink elephants...

There is not flying pink elephants but flying pink elephants. There is no children's tale of flying pink elephants, flying pink elephants are flying pink elephants.

Ridiculous argument.
 
rhinogrey
 
Reply Wed 13 May, 2009 02:22 am
@Krumple,
Krumple wrote:


Ridiculous argument.


That was an argument?

Surprisedh-really:
 
Krumple
 
Reply Wed 13 May, 2009 02:39 am
@rhinogrey,
Quote:
That was an argument


Any statement claim is considered an argument.
 
Lily
 
Reply Wed 13 May, 2009 08:38 am
@JeffD2,
Maybe I'm just a bit thick or something, but I really don't understand how anyone can claim that the christian God is the laws of logic, yes God could be the laws of logic, but the christian God, no. Genesis 1:26 "And God said:'Let us make humans as our own image'". Well, I don't know about you guys, but it's not very often I feel like the laws of logic:listening:. Can laws talk?:deep-thought: God is very often acting similar to a human in the Bible. And I don't think it matters so much if you could construe the Bible so God is the laws of logic, it's what they meant when they wrote it down. But feel free to create your own religion, it's okey with me..
 
JeffD2
 
Reply Wed 13 May, 2009 09:54 am
@Lily,
Lily wrote:
Maybe I'm just a bit thick or something, but I really don't understand how anyone can claim that the christian God is the laws of logic, yes God could be the laws of logic, but the christian God, no. Genesis 1:26 "And God said:'Let us make humans as our own image'". Well, I don't know about you guys, but it's not very often I feel like the laws of logic:listening:. Can laws talk?:deep-thought: God is very often acting similar to a human in the Bible. And I don't think it matters so much if you could construe the Bible so God is the laws of logic, it's what they meant when they wrote it down. But feel free to create your own religion, it's okey with me..



In John 1:1, it states that Christ is the "logos", which is just as easily translated "reason" or "logic" as "word".
 
Lily
 
Reply Wed 13 May, 2009 10:56 am
@JeffD2,
JeffD2 wrote:
In John 1:1, it states that Christ is the "logos", which is just as easily translated "reason" or "logic" as "word".


Okey, I get that it in one place in the Bible God could be described as logic. But couldn't just mean that God has control over the laws of logic? And I need you to clearify something. Do you think that the christian God is ONLY the laws of logic? And if so I only have one word for you: JESUS. How on earth do you explain him from the christians point of view?
 
Kaynafshar
 
Reply Wed 13 May, 2009 03:07 pm
@Krumple,
Krumple wrote:
How did I assume no free Will? You completely misunderstood what I said. I am saying if god is all knowing he knows our choices before we even make them. That doesn't contradict free will in any way.

That is absurd to say and the ONLY reason you said it is because it contradicts your belief. It would be like me saying once I see something I can choose to not see it. That is not a possibility. The only way god could be all knowing and turn it off or choose not to know would ONLY be that he is NOT all knowing then.

You ONLY need to test a being when you are UNCERTAIN of the choice it will make. So once again god would have to be limited. The only reason a teacher tests their students is to see how much of the material they comprehended. If you are all knowing then you should by default already know their comprehension. Thus for god to be all knowing he would have to know what was going to happen before it happened. Therefore no need to test.

I don't define good or evil, to me they are the same thing. People just pick and choose what they want good or evil to be to support their behavior or beliefs. In reality they are the same thing.

Yes, you can't do something in which you were not already created to do. Just like a computer program can't subtract if you did not design it to subtract. Christians always like to ignore this because it points directly at god being evil which they can't comprehend.


I don't believe in free will. Sure you have choices but you are never including one possible other choice so I reject free will concept. Why? Because you believe god gives only two choices. Either accept jesus or reject jesus. Those are the only choices you have. But there is another option. To NOT play the stupid game and I refuse to choose either A or B but you will lump me into the category of rejection. But I never rejected because I refuse to be apart of it. I choose choice C as to not pick. Where is that choice?


You can not have good without evil. Good would cease to exist if you get rid of evil. It would be like trying to cut off one side of a coin to preserve the other side. You can't and you destroy the coin trying to do it. The god and satan concepts are man made delusions of a dualistic world view.


Yet you have assumed. So you are not even following your own advice.


picture it like a book. at any time can you access the book to find any answer. but you can also have the choice to not look. I see free
will as God being able to see our future at any time he wishes, but gives us the opportunity to make choices for ourselves. that doesnt in any way make his power limmited, it only proves that it can be twisted to Gods liking. and you make these statements as if you yourself understand the way it works. we have no idea how angels such as satan were created or think, let alone what rules our own logic follows. like ive said before, we cant know that our logic is right. there can be some things that we are simply not able to understand. illogical things to us can be simple logic to God.

my last statement in the previous post was to inform you that i am not preaching this down your throat, it is mainly what i "believe". im not assuming its right, im making sense of my belief the best way i can.

---------- Post added at 05:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:07 PM ----------

JeffD2 wrote:
In John 1:1, it states that Christ is the "logos", which is just as easily translated "reason" or "logic" as "word".


The bible has been translated over so many times and changed over so many years that i dont think we can use the literal meanings of the words when we dont even know what the word originally was. especially since our own religions leaders have changed their minds on what they want in it at least 3 times in the past 100 or so years.
 
JeffD2
 
Reply Wed 13 May, 2009 05:48 pm
@Kaynafshar,
""""""""The bible has been translated over so many times and changed over so many years that i dont think we can use the literal meanings of the words when we dont even know what the word originally was. especially since our own religions leaders have changed their minds on what they want in it at least 3 times in the past 100 or so years.""""""""""

I've heared about this from a couple of people that I know in real life. If this is true, then the PRESENT DAY bible cant tell us anything useful about God and shouldnt be considered a valid source. Since the bible is really the only "source" of God, we can never know what Christianity is truely about. This kinda destroys my argument if this is true, because how can anybody know if the ORIGINAL bible said that God was omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, etc.. Not only does it destroy my arguement, it destroys Christianity.
 
Kaynafshar
 
Reply Wed 13 May, 2009 06:29 pm
@JeffD2,
JeffD2 wrote:
""""""""The bible has been translated over so many times and changed over so many years that i dont think we can use the literal meanings of the words when we dont even know what the word originally was. especially since our own religions leaders have changed their minds on what they want in it at least 3 times in the past 100 or so years.""""""""""

I've heared about this from a couple of people that I know in real life. If this is true, then the PRESENT DAY bible cant tell us anything useful about God and shouldnt be considered a valid source. Since the bible is really the only "source" of God, we can never know what Christianity is truely about. This kinda destroys my argument if this is true, because how can anybody know if the ORIGINAL bible said that God was omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, etc.. Not only does it destroy my arguement, it destroys Christianity.



well it doesnt destroy christianity. it merely scews the direct view we have on it. i believe the message in the bible still stands, its only the details that have been altered. but aside from the point we have the Qhoran as well. It was written in arabic, was copied in arabic, is still taught in arabic, and the only translation was directly to english. it is just as much the word of God as the bible is or was. It is the closure, and final word of God. Aside from the only key belief that jesus was the son of god, the Qhoran is virtually the same as the bible, but with different traditions and a more strict way of worship. They believe he is the massiah, and he was one of God's most beloved profets, but only that he was not the incarnated son of God himself.
 
Krumple
 
Reply Wed 13 May, 2009 08:14 pm
@JeffD2,
Quote:
and you make these statements as if you yourself understand the way it works. we have no idea how angels such as satan were created or think, let alone what rules our own logic follows. like ive said before, we cant know that our logic is right. there can be some things that we are simply not able to understand. illogical things to us can be simple logic to God.


Alright kayna, I'll accept this argument and just to show you how much it makes sense to me I can make this statement based of this profound truth you gave me.

God could be the evil one, god could be the ultimate human manipulator. God could be the universes prankster. God therefore could have absolutely no consideration for you what so ever and the creation was nothing more than a way to entertain himself by watching beings suffer.

After all, like you said, "we cant know that our logic is right." This implies that all the sayings that god is love could be just as illogical as my original argument.
 
Alan McDougall
 
Reply Wed 13 May, 2009 08:26 pm
@Krumple,
Krumple wrote:
You can say the same thing about flying pink elephants...

There is not flying pink elephants but flying pink elephants. There is no children's tale of flying pink elephants, flying pink elephants are flying pink elephants.

Ridiculous argument.


"Statement of fact, not argument, in my humble opinion God is the omniscience that created, pervades and sustains all of creation

"The Prime Mover" The "Uncaused Cause of Existence", the Beginner and Ender of Ceaseless cycles of Creation", "Reason for Reality" "First Thought" "Infinite Source"

"Prime Consciousness" "Original Thinker" "Cosmic Consciousness"

"Life"

"God equates to all Existence"
 
Krumple
 
Reply Wed 13 May, 2009 08:30 pm
@JeffD2,
Quote:
"Statement of fact, not argument, in my humble opinion God is the omniscience that created, pervades and sustains all of creation

"The Prime Mover" The "Uncaused Cause of Existence", the Beginner and Ender of Ceaseless cycles of Creation", "Reason for Reality" "First Thought" "Infinite Source"

"Prime Consciousness" "Original Thinker" "Cosmic Consciousness"

"Life"

"God equates to all Existence"


And I say god is a flying pink elephant.

Who is closer to the truth? Neither, to be honest... I'll admit to it but will you?
 
Kaynafshar
 
Reply Wed 13 May, 2009 08:51 pm
@Krumple,
Krumple wrote:
Alright kayna, I'll accept this argument and just to show you how much it makes sense to me I can make this statement based of this profound truth you gave me.

God could be the evil one, god could be the ultimate human manipulator. God could be the universes prankster. God therefore could have absolutely no consideration for you what so ever and the creation was nothing more than a way to entertain himself by watching beings suffer.

After all, like you said, "we cant know that our logic is right." This implies that all the sayings that god is love could be just as illogical as my original argument.



yea and we could also be lost in the matrix mr. descartes :shocked: lol. well for what i cant explain or prove, is where i let faith and belief step in. whatever the logic or reason, God created us, and our souls belong to him. Good or Evil, God is God, and i for one, will obey his word whether it makes sense or not.

but again, im not forcing you to agree with me, its merely my belief.
 
Alan McDougall
 
Reply Wed 13 May, 2009 10:39 pm
@Krumple,
Krumple wrote:
And I say god is a flying pink elephant.

Who is closer to the truth? Neither, to be honest... I'll admit to it but will you?


I prefer mine Smile

Worship your pink elephant if you like :perplexed:
 
 

 
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