Distribution of Fear in Christianity

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avatar6v7
 
Reply Fri 21 Nov, 2008 10:06 am
@Icon,
Icon wrote:
I have no doubt of this. But I also know that all things which begin must end. We have this nasty habit of nostalgia in the human race and seem to have a hard time letting go of things. Religion was great but it has out lived its usefulness.

Marriage and the family has been the basic univere of society for all human existance, so would you scrap that to? What do you think would be so wonderful about a demystified universe? I would be interested to hear your response.
 
Icon
 
Reply Fri 21 Nov, 2008 10:13 am
@Justin,
Who is to say that marriage is correct? In a society that is not conflicted by silly ideas like religion, faith, greed and mysticism we would easily work towards common goals. The goal of demystifying the universe. In a society like that, you have children because you need to. You love and you live and you learn and you achieve. Would that be so bad? Would it be so terrible to define your own reason for being? Would be so bad to define your own route through life? In that sort of society, everyone would take care of everyone because it would be good to do so. There would be no need for conflict or war or anyting of violent nature. You would be truly free to do as you wish without guidelines or rules or limits. Mankind would be able to achieve things not even possible in science fiction. Don't get me wrong, I know this will never happen because of mans inherent struggle to hold on to the past and his inherent struggle towards greed and power. But when you remove all that is to be powerful and all that is required to be greedy then you are left with only progression.
 
avatar6v7
 
Reply Fri 21 Nov, 2008 10:16 am
@Icon,
Icon wrote:
Who is to say that marriage is correct? In a society that is not conflicted by silly ideas like religion, faith, greed and mysticism we would easily work towards common goals. The goal of demystifying the universe. In a society like that, you have children because you need to. You love and you live and you learn and you achieve. Would that be so bad? Would it be so terrible to define your own reason for being? Would be so bad to define your own route through life? In that sort of society, everyone would take care of everyone because it would be good to do so. There would be no need for conflict or war or anyting of violent nature. You would be truly free to do as you wish without guidelines or rules or limits. Mankind would be able to achieve things not even possible in science fiction. Don't get me wrong, I know this will never happen because of mans inherent struggle to hold on to the past and his inherent struggle towards greed and power. But when you remove all that is to be powerful and all that is required to be greedy then you are left with only progression.

the view on marriage is a debate for another time. You haven't given me an answer on anything else. 'your own path', sure, but 1. people will take mystical paths and 2. what path is it that you suggest that is superior to what we have. Give an example.
 
Icon
 
Reply Fri 21 Nov, 2008 10:22 am
@avatar6v7,
avatar6v7 wrote:
the view on marriage is a debate for another time. You haven't given me an answer on anything else. 'your own path', sure, but 1. people will take mystical paths and 2. what path is it that you suggest that is superior to what we have. Give an example.



Ok. Simple. Remove the monitary systems, remove lines of dominance, remove personal posession, remove housing and vehicles and jobs, remove government, remove religion, remove all things save knowledge. Start over again with nothing, from scratch. Build standard housing, public only transportation, research centers with materials, automated food processing plants, automated materials gathering for raw materials, automated salvage operations for turning the old world into the new. Provide tools, information, technology, open source information for everything. Allow the people to do whatever they want to do and achieve whatever they wish to achieve without prejudice, judgment or control.
 
avatar6v7
 
Reply Fri 21 Nov, 2008 10:26 am
@Icon,
Icon wrote:
Ok. Simple. Remove the monitary systems, remove lines of dominance, remove personal posession, remove housing and vehicles and jobs, remove government, remove religion, remove all things save knowledge. Start over again with nothing, from scratch. Build standard housing, public only transportation, research centers with materials, automated food processing plants, automated materials gathering for raw materials, automated salvage operations for turning the old world into the new. Provide tools, information, technology, open source information for everything. Allow the people to do whatever they want to do and achieve whatever they wish to achieve without prejudice, judgment or control.

you could just have said 'hell on earth' and left it at that.
seriously is that your vision for a perfect future? Why is it that all utopian visions are really dystopias for everyone else?
Also what is your defenition of 'information' do you include litreature? scripture? philosophy? unproven theories?
 
Icon
 
Reply Fri 21 Nov, 2008 10:30 am
@avatar6v7,
avatar6v7 wrote:
you could just have said 'hell on earth' and left it at that.
seriously is that your vision for a perfect future? Why is it that all utopian visions are really dystopias for everyone else?
Also what is your defenition of 'information' do you include litreature? scripture? philosophy? unproven theories?

First of all, how is being able to do whatever you wish a dystopia?
Second, I mean ALL information. Peoples location, literature, unfinished theories, philosophy, scripture, unfinished design specs, invalid or disproven information, EVERYTHING. All information available for all people. A completely open society.
 
avatar6v7
 
Reply Fri 21 Nov, 2008 10:36 am
@Icon,
Icon wrote:
First of all, how is being able to do whatever you wish a dystopia?
Second, I mean ALL information. Peoples location, literature, unfinished theories, philosophy, scripture, unfinished design specs, invalid or disproven information, EVERYTHING. All information available for all people. A completely open society.

doing whatever you want is a form of hell. for instance a house has walls that restrict us- but restriction gives somthing shape. also that doesn't even cover other people having the ability to do what they like.
fair enough on the info. quick quesion- would you pull down all the buildings?
 
Icon
 
Reply Fri 21 Nov, 2008 10:57 am
@Justin,
Yes. Everything. Everything which reminds us of our past save for the information. no physical manifestations of the past. just information. We MUST know about the past to learn from it. But we must not be reminded of it or we might cling to it again.

I will counter your first comment with a question. What is the importance of giving something restrictions? Why is it so scary to consider all possibilities?
 
avatar6v7
 
Reply Fri 21 Nov, 2008 11:10 am
@Icon,
Icon wrote:
Yes. Everything. Everything which reminds us of our past save for the information. no physical manifestations of the past. just information. We MUST know about the past to learn from it. But we must not be reminded of it or we might cling to it again.

I will counter your first comment with a question. What is the importance of giving something restrictions? Why is it so scary to consider all possibilities?

First point- what about cathedrals, art, the pyramids- surely they are sources of inspiration and knowlage themselves? What is the advantage to be had from their absence?
secondly you are deciding that restrictions are bad without really attempting to understand why they are there, as chesterton put it-
'Don't ever take a fence down until you know the reason it was put up.'
wise man
 
Icon
 
Reply Fri 21 Nov, 2008 11:14 am
@avatar6v7,
avatar6v7 wrote:
First point- what about cathedrals, art, the pyramids- surely they are sources of inspiration and knowlage themselves? What is the advantage to be had from their absence?
secondly you are deciding that restrictions are bad without really attempting to understand why they are there, as chesterton put it-
'Don't ever take a fence down until you know the reason it was put up.'
wise man

Always take the fence down but be ready to deal with the consequences.

I understand your point about the buildings. The question comes to how dangerous it is to let others have a chance to cling to it. This is not my choice and this is strictly hypothetical as this society could never happen.
 
Justin
 
Reply Fri 21 Nov, 2008 11:16 am
@Justin,
Wow, interesting thread. It's nice that we can discuss issues such as this without beating each other up over it. Thank you both for the insightful dialogs.
 
avatar6v7
 
Reply Fri 21 Nov, 2008 11:21 am
@Justin,
Justin wrote:
Wow, interesting thread. It's nice that we can discuss issues such as this without beating each other up over it. Thank you both for the insightful dialogs.

I'm not a crazy person!:a-ok:
I have posed many of the questions and acussations that people level at christianity and religion in general to myself, and I welcome any and all debate on the subject.
 
Icon
 
Reply Fri 21 Nov, 2008 11:21 am
@Justin,
Justin wrote:
Wow, interesting thread. It's nice that we can discuss issues such as this without beating each other up over it. Thank you both for the insightful dialogs.

What are your thoughts on this Justin?


I'm not the type to general get worked up about this sort of thing because that would be admitting that I felt more correct about something than someone and since I don't see how I could possibly BE correct, I can't say that they are wrong so much as I can show flaws in their logic.
 
avatar6v7
 
Reply Fri 21 Nov, 2008 11:23 am
@Icon,
Icon wrote:
Always take the fence down but be ready to deal with the consequences.

I understand your point about the buildings. The question comes to how dangerous it is to let others have a chance to cling to it. This is not my choice and this is strictly hypothetical as this society could never happen.

what do you mean by 'cling.' Traditions have value to society, preserving it and keeping it flourishing. Handled correctly they can be the basis for positive change.
 
Icon
 
Reply Fri 21 Nov, 2008 11:26 am
@Justin,
But I am not discussing a gradual change. I am talking about an immediate change into an age of reason and logic. Society would no longer have meaning or value. All that would matter is the achievement of our peak. The progression to our best limits. An infinite progression as our limits will progress as we push them.
 
avatar6v7
 
Reply Fri 21 Nov, 2008 11:30 am
@Icon,
Icon wrote:
But I am not discussing a gradual change. I am talking about an immediate change into an age of reason and logic. Society would no longer have meaning or value. All that would matter is the achievement of our peak. The progression to our best limits. An infinite progression as our limits will progress as we push them.

progress how? also what do you have instead of a society? What is the acheivment?
 
Solace
 
Reply Fri 21 Nov, 2008 02:23 pm
@Justin,
This reply is in direct response to the thread opener. My apologies if I say something that has already been stated. I fully intend to go back and read the other posts in this thread, but I wanted to reply to the opener while this is fresh in my head.

There is one simple reason why Christians look forward to a Revelations-like end of the world, and the reason isn't fear (fear is why they believe in the first place), it's doubt. Those Christians long for God (Jesus, w/e) to come down and say, "See, these Christians had it right all along, so Ha!" If Christians are afraid of anything, it's of being proven wrong, or, at least, not being proven right during their lifetimes.

They feel an all-encompassing need to have their faith validated. Because, quite frankly, most of them are tired of God, Christianity, Christ, church, the Bible and everything that is affiliated with such. So they have a dire craving to justify why they chose to adhere to this thing that they don't even like anymore. They stick with it out of fear for what will happen to them if they give up. Despite what they claim, they are not good people, nor do they want good things. They want to see hellfire and damnation descend upon those who don't agree with them, and it's quite clear by the thoughts stated in the thread opener (and in plenty of other Christian literature) that they have a divisive "us and them" mentality.

Doubt and fear walk hand in hand. And just about every Christian I talk to is obsessed with them. You cannot possibly hope to good while your head is full of worries about evil. And that is the Christian dillemma.
 
avatar6v7
 
Reply Fri 21 Nov, 2008 02:32 pm
@Solace,
Solace wrote:
This reply is in direct response to the thread opener. My apologies if I say something that has already been stated. I fully intend to go back and read the other posts in this thread, but I wanted to reply to the opener while this is fresh in my head.

There is one simple reason why Christians look forward to a Revelations-like end of the world, and the reason isn't fear (fear is why they believe in the first place), it's doubt. Those Christians long for God (Jesus, w/e) to come down and say, "See, these Christians had it right all along, so Ha!" If Christians are afraid of anything, it's of being proven wrong, or, at least, not being proven right during their lifetimes.

They feel an all-encompassing need to have their faith validated. Because, quite frankly, most of them are tired of God, Christianity, Christ, church, the Bible and everything that is affiliated with such. So they have a dire craving to justify why they chose to adhere to this thing that they don't even like anymore. They stick with it out of fear for what will happen to them if they give up. Despite what they claim, they are not good people, nor do they want good things. They want to see hellfire and damnation descend upon those who don't agree with them, and it's quite clear by the thoughts stated in the thread opener (and in plenty of other Christian literature) that they have a divisive "us and them" mentality.

Doubt and fear walk hand in hand. And just about every Christian I talk to is obsessed with them. You cannot possibly hope to good while your head is full of worries about evil. And that is the Christian dillemma.

Thanks for graciousness of your opening, but I must say I am dissapointed in the huge generalisation and massive ignorance displayed below it. I chose my faith, questioned it and came to it because of entirely positive reasons I can assure. (though some atheists make me glad I'm a christian(though to be fair some christians make me wish they were atheists)) Again this is because of the corrupt nature of the church in much of America. In England we have far less of this problem, though there is a rising minority of fundamentalists that deeply worrys me(not that I'm fueled by it:).) However you have to recognise that even in the US the church has done positive things. For instance it was from the pulpit that Martin Luther King led the civil rights movement. Surely a faith fueled by hope and a determination to make the world a better place. My kind of faith.
 
Solace
 
Reply Fri 21 Nov, 2008 02:57 pm
@avatar6v7,
Yes, there have been positive messages preached from the pulpit. But we're speaking specifically about those Christians (and there are a great many of them) who are obsessed with end-time prophesy. I know I made a huge generalization, but it just happens to be a generalization that an astounding amount of Christians fall into. And although it may be ignorant of me to claim that all such doom-sayers do so out of doubt, when you get right down to the psychology of their testimony, doubt plays a fundamental role.

Now let me be clear, I do not call myself Christian, because I would not associate myself to those who take his name in vain, but I do have faith in God and Christ and teachings of the Bible. And I see nothing good in fostering fear, doubt or hate of any kind, no matter what label does or does not apply to you.
 
NeitherExtreme
 
Reply Fri 21 Nov, 2008 03:00 pm
@Icon,
Icon wrote:
In a society that is not conflicted by silly ideas like religion, faith, greed and mysticism we would easily work towards common goals.

How do you equate religion, faith and mysticism with greed? They are not the same thing. You're going to have to make some good arguments to prove (1) religion/faith/mysticism and greed are inseperable, and (2) that removing religion/faith/mysticism will remove greed. Otherwise I think the rest of your argument fall apart.

Also, I'd like to ask... what do we expect to get out of this conversation? I think all of us here agree that obsesion with dooms-day prophesy is not helpfull, and often harmful. So, assuming we all agree on that point, what are we trying to figure out? Their motives, or how to stop them, or just sharing common frustrations, or what?
 
 

 
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