Distribution of Fear in Christianity

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Justin
 
Reply Thu 20 Nov, 2008 01:18 pm
I am on Facebook and I ran into an article in one of my facebook friend's profile and I responded to this and wanted to share it with others on this forum for discussion.

The first post was the actual article, here it is:
Quote:
Congressman: Obama wants Gestapo-like force
GOP rep invokes Nazis, Soviets, but Bush backed Obama's civilian corps idea

updated 3:16 a.m. ET, Tues., Nov. 11, 2008
WASHINGTON - A Republican congressman from Georgia said Monday he fears that President-elect Obama will establish a Gestapo-like security force to impose a Marxist dictatorship.

"It may sound a bit crazy and off base, but the thing is, he's the one who proposed this national security force," Rep. Paul Broun said of Obama in an interview Monday with The Associated Press. "I'm just trying to bring attention to the fact that we may - may not, I hope not - but we may have a problem with that type of philosophy of radical socialism or Marxism."

Broun cited a July speech by Obama that has circulated on the Internet in which the then-Democratic presidential candidate called for a civilian force to take some of the national security burden off the military.

"That's exactly what Hitler did in Nazi Germany and it's exactly what the Soviet Union did," Broun said. "When he's proposing to have a national security force that's answering to him, that is as strong as the U.S. military, he's showing me signs of being Marxist."

Obama's comments about a national security force came during a speech in Colorado in which he called for expanding the nation's foreign service.

"We cannot continue to rely only on our military in order to achieve the national security objectives that we've set," Obama said in July. "We've got to have a civilian national security force that's just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded."

The Obama transition team declined to comment on Broun's remarks. But spokesman Tommy Vietor said Obama was referring in the speech to a proposal for a civilian reserve corps that could handle postwar reconstruction efforts such as rebuilding infrastructure - an idea endorsed by the Bush administration.

Broun said he believes Obama would move to ban gun ownership if he does build a national security force.

Obama has said he respects the Second Amendment right to bear arms and favors "common sense" gun laws. Gun rights advocates interpret that as meaning he'll at least enact curbs on ownership of assault weapons and concealed weapons. As an Illinois state lawmaker, Obama supported a ban on semiautomatic weapons and tighter restrictions on firearms generally.

"We can't be lulled into complacency," Broun said. "You have to remember that Adolf Hitler was elected in a democratic Germany. I'm not comparing him to Adolf Hitler. What I'm saying is there is the potential of going down that road."
Now the responses to this go as follows in order. Names have been changed for privacy.
Quote:
Mary 3:28pm on November 17th, 2008
I have heard that Obama wants to get rid of our guns, I didn't hear about the whole "gestapo" type security. Where did you get this article?

Thread Starter 6:51pm on November 17th, 2008
This was on MSNBC. I believe we will be seeing a persecution of Christians, and it may have a very "Nazi" feel to it. I don't think people understand what they have voted into office.

Mary 6:59pm on November 17th, 2008
I totally agree...Obama is scary and with him voted into office is very "Revelations"

Barbara 8:21am on November 18th, 2008
All I can say is, I voted McCain. Surprised)

Dan 8:22am yesterday
Why would Obama persecute Christians when he himself is a Christian?

Thread Starter 10:24am yesterday
If Obama has Christ as his Savior, he certainly in not walking with Christ. At the very least you could definitely say he does not have a Biblical worldview. Most of his agenda and beliefs are against the Bible. Many of the things he would like to put in place, directly attack Christians.

Mary 11:03am yesterday
A lot of people claim they are Christians but don't follow The Bible. Like Thread Starter said his political agendas, his beliefs, etc do not show me that he is the Christian he claims to be. I am not judging though and not saying he isn't a Christian because all Christians stumble and make mistakes. BUT I think if Obama is a Christian he needs to reevaluate what kind of president he really needs to be and what would be best for our country.

Dan 12:40pm
"Most of his agenda and beliefs are against the Bible. Many of the things he would like to put in place, directly attack Christians."

Like______________? Don't support your statement with another statement saying the same thing but in a different sentence.

I encourage you to read this; Barack Obama and Joe Biden: The Change We Need

It's Obama's speech on Religion to an audience of Evangelicals on his desire to unite and reconcile his progressive beliefs and his Christian beliefs. I find it quite refreshing considering the traditional "us vs them" ideology we've been ensconced in with politics for much too long. I hope you find it refreshing as well and gain a clearer insight into his religious and political worldview.

Obama doesn't speak in soundbites, so you need to read the whole thing. But one of the most salient points in the speech that seem to speak to this discussion:

(at the conclusion)
"And that night, before I went to bed I said a prayer of my own. It's a prayer I think I share with a lot of Americans. A hope that we can live with one another in a way that reconciles the beliefs of each with the good of all. It's a prayer worth praying, and a conversation worth having in this country in the months and years to come."

More from his speech:

"Each day, it seems, thousands of Americans are going about their daily rounds - dropping off the kids at school, driving to the office, flying to a business meeting, shopping at the mall, trying to stay on their diets - and they're coming to the realization that something is missing. They are deciding that their work, their possessions, their diversions, their sheer busyness, is not enough.

They want a sense of purpose, a narrative arc to their lives. They're looking to relieve a chronic loneliness, a feeling supported by a recent study that shows Americans have fewer close friends and confidants than ever before. And so they need an assurance that somebody out there cares about them, is listening to them - that they are not just destined to travel down that long highway towards nothingness.

Faith doesn't mean that you don't have doubts.

You need to come to church in the first place precisely because you are first of this world, not apart from it. You need to embrace Christ precisely because you have sins to wash away - because you are human and need an ally in this difficult journey. "

ME :sarcastic: 1:00pm
In the article within the first sentence, "he fears". This is what's known as fear mongering. How many thousand years will it take us to understand that we attract those things we fear the most. Is it God who's created the fear or is it man who has created the fears?

"I believe we will be seeing a persecution of Christians", is this what we want? It sounds like this what many Christians are looking forward to. Fulfilling the prophecy of a man who never even met Jesus Christ, (Paul).

Mary 1:29pm
I don't want to get into a big argument. I have my beliefs, you have yours. Enough said. I just would encourage anyone to read Revelation. A lot of the signs are already here, including the persecution of Christians (which I agree is going to happen soon also, but NO I am not looking forward to it but the signs are there). Also the mixing of religions to make a "united" religion.. I also am saddened by the division among Christians which it seems to be occurring, especially since this election. We as Christians need to unite for one purpose and that is witnessing and showing the world God's love! We need to not let the world influence and take over what God tells us. It's as plain and simple as The Bible is our instructions of how to live and what to believe, if you follow The Bible word for word then I think Christians can unite instead of interpreting in their own individual way. The Bible is our Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth!


ME :sarcastic: 1:56pm
Who's arguing? Our beliefs are influenced by how we were raised and the geographical location as well. If it were India it would be the Dharma, and likewise with other countries. So our beliefs are altered by our surroundings and if truth actually stood before mankind, the truth would be persecuted and this doesn't exclude Christians. It's also the fear of truth.

It's almost as if disaster in the world is what some Christians have looked forward to for centuries. The days of persecution mean the coming of the prophecies foretold in Revelation. This is like the icing on the cake for the doomsayers.

Your telling me of living by the bible and it's instructions does fall on deaf ears as I understand the history of it and that it was written by people like you and I. When it was formed into the actual "Bible" as we see it today, it was formed under a political agenda to assist in controlling the men of that time. We are controlled by fear today, yesterday and all throughout history. It's important to truly understand rather than to guess blindly following not Christ but another man.

The signs of the second coming have shown themselves since the death of Jesus Christ. People have talked about it for many many years and it's always around the corner and there are always signs of it.

Also... You speak of the mixing of religions and that Christians need to unite. This very proposal is not in order with anything Jesus taught or showed. His message was both love and unity. Jesus was not for dividing and conquering.

Being a witness for God is allowing the light of God to shine within you so that others will recognize and come that to that light. It's not something we have to shout to be witness of. Our witness is in how we treat those around us. If you want to show the world God's love, then let it reflect outward from within you.

Following the Bible word for word... which interpretation of translation of it? Which one is the Christian one for ALL Christians? Who said we're going to leave earth?... If God is omnipotent and omnipresent can we not experience the glory of the father here and now? Was this not the message of Jesus Christ?
Now, I wanted to post this for discussion, because who knows where the actual thread will go once the thread starter sees where it's going.

My question is, are we fear mongering? These posts up here are from people that believe they know God and what Christianity is and these are people that surround me.

I'd like to hear your thoughts.

ADDED: The intent is not to bash Christianity but to discuss realistically the rationality of all of this. When people talk about the differences in Christianity and fundamentalism, my experience is that I'm surrounded by it. I've yet to meet a Christian that doesn't assert what I would consider to be fundamentalists views.
 
Icon
 
Reply Thu 20 Nov, 2008 01:46 pm
@Justin,
I don't even know where to start...


Wow.

Every generation has their end of the world event. Each time, people crowd around and whisper about the second coming or this or that but in reality, there is nothing to fear if you are a Christian, right? After all, you will be spared and taken to a land of peace and tranquility and ethereal wealth. So why are Christians afraid?

Simple answer, because they are bred to be afraid. Chritianity is entirely based around fear. Fear of the Devil, fear of God's vengence, fear of hell, fear of persecution. Their entire history has been nothing but one conflict to another; one war to another. When you are always afraid, you are always looking for something to be afraid of. That's the simple truth. I have never met a christian who could honestly tell me that they would be faithful in the lions den, or walking through the fire, or facing lashes, or any of the other horrible things that happen in the bible. The fact of the matter is that the religion is a fear based dichotomy between heavens rewards and hells damnation.

Rationality seems to be lacking when you envoke the fear of god. Let's face it, Obama may actually do this and if he does, we are all screwed. But the world will turn and life will go on. It may be miserable but, according to history, we are due for this sort of disaster. Buckle down, chin up, do what you have to in order to survive. Tough it out and stay off the chopping block.


Edit: This is not a Christian bashing response. I would say this for any fear based religion. I am merely pointing out the inconsistency of the faith in question.
 
Mr Fight the Power
 
Reply Thu 20 Nov, 2008 02:12 pm
@Icon,
I don't think they are fear mongering so much as they are expressing concerns. Obama doesn't mesh with most of the Christian views I have encountered (of course neither did McCain but that didn't stop Christians from generally supporting him in droves), so it makes sense that Obama will lead the country against what they consider christian values.

I personally would like to see all the fear mongering we can muster against Obama presidency after he came out supporting that national security force. Not only that, but he has pushed to keep perpetual warhawk and wolf in sheep's clothing, Joe Lieberman, as Chairmen of Homeland Security.

Lieberman's sins:

1. Co-chair of the Committee on the Present Danger,a neocon think-tank.
2. Sponsored the Iraq Resolution
3. Called for Democrats to cease undermining the presidents credibility in time of war.
4. Is the leading pro-isreal hawk in congress.
5. Was instrumental in the formation and growth of the Department of Homeland Security and its constitutional abuses.
6. Supported Alberto Gonzales' memo on the Geneva Conventions.


Now there is change we can believe in, right?


EDIT: WOW! This probably should have gone in the axe-grinding thread, shouldn't it?
 
avatar6v7
 
Reply Thu 20 Nov, 2008 02:23 pm
@Justin,
Justin wrote:
I am on Facebook and I ran into an article in one of my facebook friend's profile and I responded to this and wanted to share it with others on this forum for discussion.

The first post was the actual article, here it is:
Now the responses to this go as follows in order. Names have been changed for privacy.
Now, I wanted to post this for discussion, because who knows where the actual thread will go once the thread starter sees where it's going.

My question is, are we fear mongering? These posts up here are from people that believe they know God and what Christianity is and these are people that surround me.

I'd like to hear your thoughts.

ADDED: The intent is not to bash Christianity but to discuss realistically the rationality of all of this. When people talk about the differences in Christianity and fundamentalism, my experience is that I'm surrounded by it. I've yet to meet a Christian that doesn't assert what I would consider to be fundamentalists views.

If you will excuse the assumption you're american right? That would explain why you keep on meeting the fundies eh?
I'm a christian and I think Obama is a good leader (he's also christian btw) I also accept evouloution, I don't have any problems with homosexuality and I certainly don't think that Iraq was 'god's will.' But I suspect that you mean somthing more....well fundamental by saying christians are mostly fundamentalists. Could you elaborate on the point please?
 
Justin
 
Reply Thu 20 Nov, 2008 03:46 pm
@avatar6v7,
avatar6v7 wrote:
But I suspect that you mean somthing more....well fundamental by saying christians are mostly fundamentalists. Could you elaborate on the point please?


Thanks for the comments. Yes, I'm in America. What I mean with that is that some of the discussions on the forum say there are Fundamentalists Christians and then there are ... other Christians. However, the general overtone that I've seen everywhere I look the fundi.

Oh, did I forget to say Amen, Alleluia on your version of Christianity. Seriously, it's not something I've often encountered. In America, I don't think you can be Gay and claim to be a Christian... at least that's not I see.

Above all, it just seems like the conversation in the original thread amongst Christians is not the idea Jesus portrayed... and Jesus is claimed to be the heart of Christianity. So is this a rational way of looking at it?

I'll follow up with the response to the thread because there have been several... including my own big mouth. :shifty:

Mary responded:

Quote:
First it's not the disaster we Christians are looking forward to it's the end result of all that destruction, it's Jesus' second coming.

2 Timothy 3:15-17 "and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." maybe the actual Bible as we see it today was man made but the scripture has been there and like it states in Timothy is God breathed and his instructions to us.

I agree there has been signs for a long time now but the signs get more and more prevalent year by year.

There is difference between mixing religions and Christians uniting. I don't think all the religions of the world should unite, Jesus says that he is THE ONLY way to God and Christians uniting with other religions (such as Muslims, Buddhists, etc they believe there is other ways to God). So Christians uniting with other religions does go against Jesus' teachings. Now the love that he teaches shows that we are to love all people of all religions and accept them but not unite our religion with theirs. Now Christians uniting despite their political stances and whatnot is what Jesus teaches us.

I agree with you that we are supposed to teach God's love by how we act, how we show ourselves to the world. There is nothing as hypocritical to me as Christian when a fellow Christian shoves the religion in peoples faces and makes the people feel horrible for not being a Christian. That is not how Jesus witnessed to people and I don't think he would want us to witness like that.

And the thing on following the Bible word for word, I don't believe there is any interpretation of the Bible..there is different translations but if you read the Bible front to back there is no way you can interpret the Bible differently than other Christians.
So, I responded of course:

Quote:
I see your point. God breathed the words I spoke into me. I did not write these words they come from divine inspiration which could in fact, be interpreted as the word of God. Just as Timothy was inspired. My point is it all depends on who's telling the story.

On mixing religions, understand that Jesus was not the founder of Christianity. Christianity was founded by Paul and likewise most of the New Testament written by Paul. Like Socrates and Plato, we have Luke and Paul. Paul, having never met Jesus Christ creating the religion we have today as Christianity. Truly in ignorance of the words of Jesus Christ and the way shown by Jesus Christ.

As far as mixing Religions... I'm not sure how to respond to that exactly but you mentioned Jesus in the mix and Jesus never claimed any religion and wasn't Jesus the one who went into the Temple they were worshiping in?... What did Jesus do?

Jesus NEVER ever taught anything but UNITY. He did not say label his followers and his followers were following because he showed the way to the eternal kingdom and explained it to them in a language of science, "Aramaic". Jesus spoke in parables and in a poetic sense. Never once did he say to go and form a religion above all others. His way was shown for us all.

Our wars are backed by religion. Fears are backed by religion... different religions. So in the division of religions we've created a division in God and a division in Man. We cast judgment on others, not taught by Christ but by man. We fight and we kill in the name of our religion and thus brings us to where we are today. Divided and fighting and creating the circumstances that surround the incidents of our time and this age. This is not the way Jesus showed us.

As far as the bible, yes it was translated. Translation of a book and a series of books written in Aramaic, Hebrew, Greek all have to be interpreted to be translated. The translator has to interpret the meaning before they can format it to be understood by others. The bible has gone through numerous translations and books were added and books were removed. It's written in different languages and there are a zillion interpretations of it not excluding your own.

You interpret the Bible to be something while another Christian interprets it differently and unique unto their own. Our interpretation of it is based on our individual and unique experiences of it. It might be advantageous to read the Torah or some of the ancient books that formed the bible of Today. You'll see a great many differences.

If there is no way to interpret the bible differently, then why does everyone interpret it differently? My interpretation of the Bible and yours are indeed very different. You can take an entire congragation and ask each and every single human being in the church, their interpretation of the word and all will be different. Each will be unique to the individual. So yes, the bible, Jesus, God, Politics and all else is interpreted very differently.

So word for word... that's a big pill to swallow considering that those words were influenced by politics and stepped on and translated and changed throughout history.

Did you ever do this?

In school we had everyone sit in a circle and someone came up with a short story and told the first person. It had to be whispered and this secret would gradually go from person to person being whispered in their ear. After a simple story of a few paragraphs made it around the class, it was not at all the same story that was originally delivered. It was interpreted and changed and ultimately came out with a different meaning.

Something to think about... It's been a pleasure communicating with you.
 
avatar6v7
 
Reply Thu 20 Nov, 2008 04:20 pm
@Justin,
I would agree there are different interpetations of the bible, and the whole concept of church doctrine is one of adapting and interpeting the bible. Of course there are significant limits on what degree of interpretation can be considered acceptable or correct. For instance God's trinitarian nature is by now universally accepted- those who do not can no longer be named christian as they reject his divinity.

However Christ did intend for a church to be established, there are many scriptural referances to this for instance- "And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven" (Matthew xvi, 19).

This is Christ giving Peter autority greater than any human has ever had, it is the scripture cited by the catholic church, for whom the first pope is believed to be peter. Peter was unfit for this authority, like any human, but his role and the blessing of God allows him to shape and rule a holy and living church.

As for the classic 'religion causes conflict' argument it is one of the most easily refutable. You say it is terrible that wars are thought over religion. But you mean to say 'it's terrible wars are fought over somthing as stupid as religion' but people fight over politics and wealth. Religion until recently was rightly considered a thousand times more important. We fight over that which matters to us, perhaps it is wrong to fight, but religion is not to be blamed. Name me one conflict that was fought over religion by christians that was utterly unjustifiable.
 
Justin
 
Reply Thu 20 Nov, 2008 04:27 pm
@avatar6v7,
avatar6v7 wrote:
Name me one conflict that was fought over religion by christians that was utterly unjustifiable.

The war in Iraq.

Sure it's about money but these are also religious wars. We fight because of our differences in religion which is carried over into politics.

Any fight over religions by any religion is unjustifiable.
 
avatar6v7
 
Reply Thu 20 Nov, 2008 04:52 pm
@Justin,
Justin wrote:
The war in Iraq.

Sure it's about money but these are also religious wars. We fight because of our differences in religion which is carried over into politics.

Any fight over religions by any religion is unjustifiable.

George Bush might be some kind of crazy christian but it was his advisors who decided to go into Iraq for very secular reasons. Name one advantage christianity has reaped from this conflict? Infact christians in Iraq are facing vastly increased persecution.
 
Justin
 
Reply Thu 20 Nov, 2008 05:48 pm
@avatar6v7,
avatar6v7 wrote:
Name one advantage christianity has reaped from this conflict?

The advantage is, back to the original post, the advantage being the creation of the circumstances that bring us closer to fulfilling the prophesies of Revelation. This is much of the conversation here in America among Christians and has been for several hundred years.

It's not the oil or the money or anything else that brought us into Iraq, it's the mentality of the Americans and the distribution of fear that has brought us into Iraq. Christianity is at the very heart and core of this mentality. If it weren't for the beliefs of these radical Christians and their division among men, we would not be in Iraq.

So my point is, Christians talk about the persecution and have brought about the circumstances surrounding their persecution. Their gain is actually their loss but they are too blind to see this. Their hopefulness of the second coming of Christ cannot happens until there's persecution in the world. So inadvertently, they've given these fears a voice, thus creating the havoc we are facing today.

Now we are at the point where many Christians feel they are to be separated from the rest of the world because their religious beliefs, no matter how far spread, are the law and they are willing to enforce the law of their God with force and might. Thus, there will be death, war and evil doings by mankind. A devout Christian will fight to his death protecting his beliefs just as an Iraqi would.

So question would be, to any Christian... What would Jesus have done?

Christians in my neck of the woods are praying for the second coming of Christ. In order for the prophecy to be fulfilled, Christians would have to be enslaved, murdered, persecuted and then hung to a cross. They look forward to it and live their lives for it... Instead of actually taking into consideration the way and life of Jesus Christ.

OH, BTW, it was not George Bush's advisor's that decided he should go into Iraq. The invasion of Iraq was planned long before George Bush jr. was made president.
 
avatar6v7
 
Reply Thu 20 Nov, 2008 06:00 pm
@Justin,
Justin wrote:
The advantage is, back to the original post, the advantage being the creation of the circumstances that bring us closer to fulfilling the prophesies of Revelation. This is much of the conversation here in America among Christians and has been for several hundred years.

I said christians not red-neck cultists
Like the president
 
Justin
 
Reply Thu 20 Nov, 2008 07:09 pm
@Justin,
Again, we could be describing the bulk of the American population.
 
NeitherExtreme
 
Reply Thu 20 Nov, 2008 08:30 pm
@Justin,
Sorry, don't have time to read all the posts up till now, but thought I'd say this at least... (I'll try to read the rest later, and respond if I have anything worthwhile to say.)

Yes, a lot of Christians are what would be labeled on this forum as "fundamentalists". I don't argue that.

But, what I think that a lot of "philosophical" people tend to forget is that the vast majority of people are fundamentalists in their beliefs, which is to say that they will cling strongly to some sort of belief system which gives structure to their lives. This belief system will have irrational aspects (meaning that it can't be defended strictly by logic), and also have some negative aspects. Notice I did not equate irrational and negative. Sometimes they overlap, sometimes not.

Some of us are good enough at BS'ing that we could fool most people, usually including ourselves, into thinking we're not fundamentalists, but I think there are few if any of us who could escape that label if we are honest with ourselves.

All that said, I personally find all the fortune telling that goes on with Revelation, etc., is not my cup of tea, and I think Christians need to be careful to keep an open mind... The God of the Bible doesn't color inside the lines.
 
Justin
 
Reply Thu 20 Nov, 2008 09:22 pm
@Justin,
Excellent post NeitherExtreme! Thank you for the perspective and insight.

You know, it's funny you mention it because I was talking to my wife tonight because she's on facebook as well, (Sees everything I do) Smile and she read some of this. Of course, with my entire family being the fundamentalists we describe, she begs of me to keep my mouth shut. LOL. Anyway, getting to the point I asked her if I could truly be considered a Christian. If I were to claim an ism or a religion, could I possibly be a Christian?.. it took her a while to answer.

When it all boils down to it, I could very well, myself, be a Christian. Just not the same flavor as some of the others. I mean honestly, I do believe in the life, works and message of Jesus Christ. It's that of balance and unity and surely a message of the divine. So technically, even though I've disputed it before, could very well be a Christian myself... Couldn't I?... Couldn't many of us?

Back to the point. Everyday Christianity distributing fear as if it were candy. Deliberately and willfully sewing seeds of fear and hate into each other and those around them. This is hardly the message of Christ and it's hardly that of the love demonstrated by God.[INDENT]Here's a little story
During 1999 the conception and birthing of our daughter, I was drawn back towards the family and was attending church and all that good Holy stuff. This turn of the century thing was being preached about in church and between the church and our family and our own will we and all the Christians we knew stocked up on food, bought guns, dug holes in basements, and prepared for Armageddon because of the computer thing with dates and the power system. The church had us believing that this is a sign of the times spoken about in Revelations.

Our daughter was born in December of 1999 which would make her only days old when this would happen. Talk about fear... Just so happened that my son and I and a close friend were in New York City, (and were 'on top of the world' - Twin Towers) and we had to fly out early because they were closing the city down. In NY they were welding down all the drain covers in the street and replacing the steel garbage cans with cardboard.

Meanwhile we were happy to be on the plane headed back to make sure we were ready... Ready for what could be the Second Coming of Christ. It was a sign of the times... :perplexed: I observed people within the church and communities stop whatever they were doing and dedicate every resource they had to prepare for the turn from 1999 into 2000 where all the dates in computers would cause the power to go out and the banking system to collapse and all the hype in the news and church... OMG. Everywhere you turned you stared into the cold heart of yet another fear.

People pulled money out of the bank and stored up large sums of gasoline and fuels. Stocked up on wood and it was crazy. The fear literally shifted paradigms with communities and households and now the children in the womb is receiving the message of this fear and the children at home ... and just pitiful.
[/INDENT]My point is, fear spread amongst Christianity. Fear being something that has yet to happen and is unknown until it does. Fear which we accept embrace and redistribute to those we come in contact with.

So the topic is, Christian Fear. Actually the topic should be the Distribution of Fear Among Christians.

... And of course the question of the day, could you or I actually be considered a Christian? Would it be Christian of us to put that as the label on our facebook profile?

Great topic and thanks for the discussion.

... ooh, I had an after thought. It almost seems and though if it doesn't happen and the fears of future and prophesied events don't happen in good time, there's always a good Christian who will step up to the plate and do what's necessary to bring them about.

The future for Christians is persecution and warfare before the triumphant second coming of Christ. They await and anticipate that day with great expectancy and pray and ask forgiveness of our sins. ... anyway. I could still be considered a Christian..!..?...:shocked:
 
NeitherExtreme
 
Reply Thu 20 Nov, 2008 11:05 pm
@Justin,
Hi again Justin. Smile

As far as who can be considered a "Christian"... that seems prety subjective to me, and I don't know who could be the authority on the matter.

Christians spreading fear... Yep, it happens. And it's not a good thing. I think the more interesting and broader topic is- why do people need to create fear? It seems that creating fear has been a constant part of human history, including the present. (For example I see evironmentalists spreading fear left and right as well.) Personally, I think it is related to needing to have a cause, and having something to fear creates a strong "cause" to identify with. But that's just some pseudo-psychological guess work... what do you think?
 
avatar6v7
 
Reply Fri 21 Nov, 2008 02:17 am
@NeitherExtreme,
American society is all too often driven by fear and paranoia. This is true of many sections of society, not just christians. I live in England, but I spent a number of years living in America and I can assure you this is the case. People are motivated by fear in their political, social, personal, and yes, religous views. The vast numbers of gun owners, the way storys are presented in the media and simply my day to day observations of peoples behaviour. This is more true of conservatives in the US I think, but it is still all to true of those to the left as well. Obama was elected on a message of hope and change, but many elected him out of fear of another bush, fear of the reccession and fear of another war. Not neccersarily bad ideas, but it gets in the way of positive political change. My perception of the matter is that it is a product of colonialism. In Europe people have lived in places for thousands of years, it is a landscape that has been shaped and familiarised by Humans, removed of threats and shaped for comfort. In America there is a feel that everything is still insecure, that some great disaster could still destroy their tentative foothold in an strange and fearsome new world. This in spite of the vast cities and infrastructure.
 
Icon
 
Reply Fri 21 Nov, 2008 09:00 am
@Justin,
First of all, unjustified conflicts over religion... *clears throat*


The French Wars of Religion
The 7 day war
The Islam Judaic war
The Crusades (All three sets)
The 30 years war
The Mesopotamian Islam War
The Saxon War
The Second Sino-Japanese War
All wars of the Sassanid Persian Empire
The Judaic Commandment War
Any Jihad War
The Christian Lombard War
The Christian Pagan War
Manifest Destiny
The American Indian wars

I have more. This is just off the top of my head and hopefully enough to prove a point. Religion causes more wars than anything else on the planet, money included.



As far as fear and religion. Most religion is based on fear. It is also 100% true that the American culture is based on fear. This is evident in every day life. But let's not forget why America was truly founded. Religious Freedom. Seperatists wanting to get away from the Roman Catholic church because of the control it had over everything, including government. They escaped to the states to try and live a life of free christianity. So, in essence, our very foundation was fear. This is how we started and this is how we will fall. There is no doubt of that, but it still has roots in religion.
 
avatar6v7
 
Reply Fri 21 Nov, 2008 09:26 am
@Icon,
Icon wrote:
First of all, unjustified conflicts over religion... *clears throat*


The French Wars of Religion
The 7 day war
The Islam Judaic war
The Crusades (All three sets)
The 30 years war
The Mesopotamian Islam War
The Saxon War
The Second Sino-Japanese War
All wars of the Sassanid Persian Empire
The Judaic Commandment War
Any Jihad War
The Christian Lombard War
The Christian Pagan War
Manifest Destiny
The American Indian wars

I have more. This is just off the top of my head and hopefully enough to prove a point. Religion causes more wars than anything else on the planet, money included.



As far as fear and religion. Most religion is based on fear. It is also 100% true that the American culture is based on fear. This is evident in every day life. But let's not forget why America was truly founded. Religious Freedom. Seperatists wanting to get away from the Roman Catholic church because of the control it had over everything, including government. They escaped to the states to try and live a life of free christianity. So, in essence, our very foundation was fear. This is how we started and this is how we will fall. There is no doubt of that, but it still has roots in religion.

Several things here. For a start most of the religous seperatists who came to America were fleeing not the catholics but the Anglican church. Also the irony of that was that the puritans ran away from an over oppresive society....in order to set up a society even more oppresive yet. Yay for them. As for the religous conflicts above some are not really religous so much as cultural, political and terrotorial. Additionally the crusades had sufficent justification, as did the saxon war. Any war driven by Islam is partly political in nature, as it is a political system and religion combined. The thirty years war was caused by the internal divisions of holy roman empire, and much of the violance swiftly became just about how much territory everyone could get. For instance France, a catholic nation, fights with the protestants because it wants to see germanies power broken. The last two had more to do with territorial expansion, greed and racism than any kind of religous motivation. There are of course unjustified religous conflicts, and unjustifed conflicts in general. What kind of point are your trying to make by saying there are wars over religion? Wrong to fight over anything perhaps, but why is it somehow religions fault? People have started wars to defend or attack every ideology in existance, but that is not a reason to automatically dismiss a certain category of idealogy. If you think that we should abolish all idealogies and live without purpose, lets discuss that. Otherwise you are being illogical.
 
Icon
 
Reply Fri 21 Nov, 2008 09:40 am
@Justin,
I am not at all being illogical. I am saying that fighting in general is a waste of resources and time. Of course, I am also a rational anarchist and a secular humanist so this may help you discover my views more clearly. The point in bringing up these conflicts was simple. Regardless of how you may view the wars above, each one of them was started with religion at the fore front. Religion was the cause. What it became is irrelevant. I guess you could call me a deontologist since I have the understanding that the cause determines the ultimate outcome. Killing for an imaginary god is NEVER justified. Killing in general is never justified. It is a present and necessary evil but it is not just or right action. Abolishing ideology is not my meaning. My meaning is simply that rationality, logic, reason, purpose, all need to be something which we strive for over the mysticism and magic of religion which seems to only instigate fear. When we were still beating rocks against each others skulls, we were believing in magical gods and fairies. We have come so far, it is time we shed those ideas of magic and gods and demons and dedicate our attention to something helpful and non-fear based.
 
avatar6v7
 
Reply Fri 21 Nov, 2008 09:48 am
@Icon,
Icon wrote:
I am not at all being illogical. I am saying that fighting in general is a waste of resources and time. Of course, I am also a rational anarchist and a secular humanist so this may help you discover my views more clearly. The point in bringing up these conflicts was simple. Regardless of how you may view the wars above, each one of them was started with religion at the fore front. Religion was the cause. What it became is irrelevant. I guess you could call me a deontologist since I have the understanding that the cause determines the ultimate outcome. Killing for an imaginary god is NEVER justified. Killing in general is never justified. It is a present and necessary evil but it is not just or right action. Abolishing ideology is not my meaning. My meaning is simply that rationality, logic, reason, purpose, all need to be something which we strive for over the mysticism and magic of religion which seems to only instigate fear. When we were still beating rocks against each others skulls, we were believing in magical gods and fairies. We have come so far, it is time we shed those ideas of magic and gods and demons and dedicate our attention to something helpful and non-fear based.

religion is what raises us from the state of being animals. Civillisation, society, culture, art and political systems would not exist without religion.
 
Icon
 
Reply Fri 21 Nov, 2008 10:04 am
@avatar6v7,
avatar6v7 wrote:
religion is what raises us from the state of being animals. Civillisation, society, culture, art and political systems would not exist without religion.

I have no doubt of this. But I also know that all things which begin must end. We have this nasty habit of nostalgia in the human race and seem to have a hard time letting go of things. Religion was great but it has out lived its usefulness.
 
 

 
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