No Human Action, It Is All Reaction

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No0ne
 
Reply Thu 17 Jul, 2008 12:51 pm
@boagie,
boagie wrote:
NoOne,

It is not so much that one is inslaved to another, though as part of your context for existence I imagine that does playout somewhat. The world at large is the system in which you as an individual system inhabit, and it is to the larger system you must adapt or perish.



L.S.B. Leaky anthropologist, his advice to humanity, "Change Or Perish."


To Change or perish, or find a way to coupe, and co-exist

Well, everyone has to eat, even if you dont want to, nature limit's the choice and in doing so, make's the choice very simple...

Everyone has found a way how to coupe with the fact that we must all eat and drink water... It's a choice that we cant change, and for some, there is no choice in the madder of going to work every day for a pay check, and without that pay check...well I'm sure you know what choice's those people would face, and there would not be that meany...
 
boagie
 
Reply Thu 17 Jul, 2008 01:32 pm
@No0ne,
No0ne wrote:
To Change or perish, or find a way to coupe, and co-exist
Well, everyone has to eat, even if you dont want to, nature limit's the choice and in doing so, make's the choice very simple...

Everyone has found a way how to coupe with the fact that we must all eat and drink water... It's a choice that we cant change, and for some, there is no choice in the madder of going to work every day for a pay check, and without that pay check...well I'm sure you know what choice's those people would face, and there would not be that meany...



NoOne,Smile

I think I am missing something, what was your point? If it was a response to the above quote, "Change Or Perish." L.S B. Leaky Leaky was stating his advice to mankind, in other words, if you go on as you are, you will perish!
 
Holiday20310401
 
Reply Thu 17 Jul, 2008 01:42 pm
@boagie,
boagie wrote:
Hoiliday,Smile

My point was that there is no free will, entertaining the idea of free will is the general misconception humanity starts with. Humanity uses language to make it seem reasonable that the complexity of the world follows the straight line of cause and effect. One thing that seems to be missing in this concept for most people is the idea of the process involved, you have two objects, conditons and/or states, bringing them together is not the whole ball of wax, when there is reaction between the two above, the product of the said reaction arises from the reacton of the qualites of both said objects, conditons or states. So when you have two things in reaction process how do you descern which one to call cause and which one effect, and what about the product of the said reaction, is that not also said to be effect.


:perplexed:On a human level most people believe that with the formation of intent thus folllows human action, this is just not so, the formation of intent is simply a selection process out of the immediate possiablities of choices considered, intent then is the motivation for the said reaction, and there is no reaction without motivation, without intent---thus inescapably it is, reaction.



I know all that but it may as well be emphasized that we have free will if we have the right to the "free-est" of possible wills. I mean sure the government could provide insight so as to have an informed intention by changing society around a little, but then the government would not function. It would become wise people being ruled by two year olds.
An informed action make the effect more predictable to the initial cause I would think. So by having omnipotence causality would be linear, it is all in the mind. But then the future is about variables and omnipotence is just not possible because there is always going to be something unknown thus the future is not factual. In probability, no measure can be made precisely of what is to come since no knowledge exists there that can relate to before. But knowledge is all about relating so what better than to apply it to cause and effect allowing for intentiions.

What would make causality more linear? Wisdom or knowledge? More wisdom over knowledge or more knowledge over wisdom?
 
boagie
 
Reply Thu 17 Jul, 2008 01:48 pm
@Holiday20310401,
Smile

Holiday,Smile

Intention is formed it would seem quite easily, there are the deciding factors of choice, ones own self-interest considered ect..,, thus through said intention, you react to the situtation or circumstance.
 
No0ne
 
Reply Thu 17 Jul, 2008 01:55 pm
@boagie,
boagie wrote:
NoOne,Smile

I think I am missing something, what was your point? If it was a response to the above quote, "Change Or Perish." L.S B. Leaky Leaky was stating his advice to mankind, in other words, if you go on as you are, you will perish!


Na;) I will find a way to coupe with there circumstance's, and co-exist

So It seem's like I will change, if I'm going to find a way to coupe and co-exist, therefore I would not perish:rolleyes:
 
boagie
 
Reply Thu 17 Jul, 2008 01:59 pm
@No0ne,
Smile
Glad you decided to take his advice.
 
No0ne
 
Reply Thu 17 Jul, 2008 02:07 pm
@No0ne,
Quote-"The world at large is the system in which you as an individual system inhabit, and it is to the larger system you must adapt or perish."


When you say the part "The world at large is the system"

Do you mean nature as the system that individual man/system's inhabit?
Or
Do you mean nation's as the system that individual man/system's inhabit?

One thing is clear... Both are created from the individual system's that inhabit them.
 
Holiday20310401
 
Reply Thu 17 Jul, 2008 02:10 pm
@boagie,
boagie wrote:
Smile

Holiday,Smile

Intention is formed it would seem quite easily, there are the deciding factors of choice, ones own self-interest considered ect..,, thus through said intention, you react to the situtation or circumstance.


No really?:rolleyes: I didn't think of it that way:congrats:
 
boagie
 
Reply Thu 17 Jul, 2008 02:23 pm
@No0ne,
No0ne wrote:
Quote-"The world at large is the system in which you as an individual system inhabit, and it is to the larger system you must adapt or perish."

When you say the part "The world at large is the system"

Do you mean nature as the system that individual man/system's inhabit?
Or
Do you mean nation's as the system that individual man/system's inhabit?

One thing is clear... Both are created from the individual system's that inhabit them.


NoOne,Smile

Yes the world is a large system, an open system by defination, open to the cosmos. The individual is a biological system, an open system by defination, open to the world. Nations are the creations of man, they are systems of order and sometimes oppression, systems which are meant to govern mass populations. The types of systems these represent varies somewhat, the closest to a closed system of government would probably be a dictatorship. If you find the idea of understanding systems of interest to you, follow the link below.

What are Cybernetics and Systems Science?Wink




"General Systems Theory, a related modern concept [to holism], says that each variable in any system interacts with the other variables so thoroughly that cause and effect cannot be separated. A simple variable can be both cause and effect. Reality will not be still. And it cannot be taken apart! You cannot understand a cell, a rat, a brain structure, a family, a culture if you isolate it from its context. Relationship is everything." - Marilyn Ferguson
The Aquarian Conspiracy
 
No0ne
 
Reply Sat 19 Jul, 2008 02:13 pm
@boagie,
boagie wrote:
Smile
Glad you decided to take his advice.


There is no need to take the advice of another, if that advice that the person is giving is somthing you allready know:rolleyes:
 
boagie
 
Reply Sat 19 Jul, 2008 02:46 pm
@No0ne,
No0ne wrote:
There is no need to take the advice of another, if that advice that the person is giving is somthing you allready know:rolleyes:


NoOne,Smile

The quote is a generality, if humanity does not change, it does matter much if you as an individual do change, your lot is cast with humanity at large.
 
boagie
 
Reply Sat 26 Jul, 2008 08:39 am
@boagie,
:)Here is some food for thought, man does not act, man reacts.


University of Toronto Schools
371 Bloor St. West, Toronto: M5S 2R8

Question Three: On
The System of Nature

Baron Paul-Henri d'Holbach's essay

The System of Nature (1770) is logically sound
and cannot be refuted with any degree of satisfaction. Nevertheless, such a refutation is
continually attempted and wished for by many; there is an intuitive rejection of his view of
mankind as merely complex machines that respond

to stimulus in an inevitable manner. In
this essay, I shall demonstrate why these attempts at refutation are doomed to failure.
D'Holbach's argument can be summarised quite succinctly; cause follows effect. If
one accepts this premise, then all else follows. When a certain stimulus is applied to man,
man reacts in a certain way, as determined by a host of factors, including other stimuli
applied in the past. There is no will of man active here; man reacts, he does not act.
Let us first dispense with those arguments that challenge the premise. Most of these
stem from quantum mechanics. Based on this argument, since there are microscopic events
that do not occur based on causal relations but instead probable relations: not all events can
be said to be bound by causal relations and therefore d'Holbach's argument is flawed. This is
erroneous on many levels; first, the probable relations are only theorised to occur at a micro
level, whereas we function on a macro level. Any change at the micro level, if it does affect
us, can be viewed as a 'cause', and external at that; we do not control it. Therefore, it can still
be considered an external stimulus. Origin more remote than that is immaterial to our
argument.
Moving on, d'Holbach is sometimes challenged in a rejection of the 'simplicity' of his
vision; we would prefer to think that there is some choice to our actions. Many will then cite
anecdotal evidence such as two similar instances where they have made opposite decisions.
When it is suggested to them that, since the instances were not identical, since the stimuli in
each case vary, the result will also vary, denial is again the response. I do not think d'Holbach
needs to defend himself against such a denial; he has made a logically consistent argument,
and since there is no rational justification given for the denial that is not already answered by
d'Holbach.
Now, one must admit that an argument, no matter how internally consistent and
reasonable, should also be externally consistent that is, it should be consistent with the world
that we sense. Granted, our senses can be deceiving, a shown by Descartes in his Meditations
I and II but that is not the topic at hand. (Descartes, 1641) In the above rebuttal to d'Holbach,
the challenger is citing evidence of his senses. However, if we are to admit sensory evidence
into this debate, there is as much for d'Holbach as against.
Many times we sense that our course is not of our choosing; we know that we have
been forced into a choice by a variety of factors that conspire to produce the result. Ask a
man why he did something, and more often than not, he will be able to point to external
events that led him there. Sometimes the connection is rational, the final 'choice' or
conclusion logically deduced. Other times, the chain is irrational, emotionally driven.
A common perception is that d'Holbach claims all choices are rational and logically
determined at a human level. They are not, nor does he make that claim; instead, he claims
that at the level of causal relations, cause immutably follows effect. What we perceive as an
irrational action is only driven by causes too complex or alien for us to understand. At the
level d'Holbach addresses, it is quite logical, because he admits those causes we do not fully
understand into the equation. This having been said, we can dispense with those intuitive
rejections of d'Holbach's argument, however more counter-arguments remain.
Among them, there is one I might have used to criticise d'Holbach's position, save
that I realised that the essay given holds the answer. In this counter-argument, one attempts
to drive d'Holbach's position to a logical conclusion, but one which we find so alien we must
reject it, and with it, his entire argument. In effect, it is a take on reductio ad absurdum.
According to d'Holbach, everything is bound in a network of causal relations, each
stimulus inevitably producing an effect, which in turn becomes the stimulus that prompts
another effect. It is in this world we live our lives - more, this is our life; the inputs and
outputs of the machine that we call 'man'. This sounds very akin to a theory proposed by
Derek Parfit in his Divided Minds and the Nature of Persons.
In this theory, Parfit explains that life itself is a 'Bundle' of causal relations.
According to Parfit, this makes 'The Self and erroneous concept; what is the purpose of The
Self, of the concept of 'Ego'? They are that which wills, that which acts, that which
determines. Our Ego differentiates us from the physical world, permits us to take action, to
make a positive choice. D'Holbach rejects the idea that we can actively will, that we can
determine, that we can go against the stimuli that drive us - he rejects the Ego. It seems
obvious enough why; the two philosophers begin with the same premise, their logic is sound,
and therefore the conclusion is the same. D'Holbach doesn't take the line of logic as far as
does Parfit, but we can in an analysis of the extended consequences of it. (Parfit, 1987)
This consequence is highly problematic, because it is not externally consistent. If we reject
the Ego, then we reject the concept of personhood. As Parfit expands further in his theory,
when there are only cause and effect relations, death is the same as life. There is no being
that begins or ends; certain electric stimuli cease to function, certain molecules change
position. It was inevitable. Life is merely a series of actions that are linked by cause and
effect. There is nothing which differentiates a person from his surroundings; there is nothing
that defines the beginning and end of life, from a temporal perspective, or the beginning and
end of a person from a physical perspective.
I reject this notion, intuitively. Perhaps it is megalomania, perhaps it is pride, perhaps
it is stubbornness, but I believe that I exist. I sense my own existence. I know the course of
my life may well be inevitable, but I feel that there is something called 'me'. There is
something that differentiates me from the rest of the world, something that defines me as
separate from the rest of the world, something that makes me unique. Many are tempted to
say that we will, that we can determine our own fate, that that is what differentiates us.
D'Holbach has shown them to be wrong. There is another option; that of a dualist conception
of the self, of something that goes beyond the physical and subjects us, and only us, to
stimuli unique to us. When we are subject to stimuli from this 'something', this marks our
beginning, and when the stimuli fade, our end; the stimuli from this' something' bind and
define our life and us as living.
With all d'Holbach's talk of man as a machine, it seems likely he would find such a
notion metaphysical mumbo-jumbo, and indeed I have been made aware that he rejects any
dualist conception in other writing. However, in the given passage, he states that, "... whilst
that which determines the fall in the second case, springs from within his own peculiar
machine, having its more remote cause also exterior." The key here is his view of man as
having 'his own peculiar machine'. This suggests that d'Holbach is not altogether against the
uniqueness of man, of him having some 'peculiar' characteristic that differentiates him from
both the rest of mankind and the rest of the world. This peculiarity defines him, allows him to
be more than merely a machine. (Parfit, 1987)
It is this passage that rescues d'Holbach from Parfit's trap; their premises aren't
actually identical. Parfit denies a dualist conception, denies man as being different from the
rest of the world. D'Holbach grants him uniqueness. This dichotomy rescues d'Holbach from
perhaps the most subtle of the counterarguments, and thus leaves his own argument unsullied
and unspoiled.
Thus, in conclusion, we must make the statement that
There is, in point of fact, no difference between the man that [sic] is cast out of the
window by another, and the man who throws himself out of it, except that the impulse
in the first instance comes immediately from without whilst that which determines the
fall in the second case, springs from within his own peculiar machine, having its more
remote cause also exterior.
D'Holbach's logic is impeccable, and we have adequately defended it against three possible
rebuttals, one attacking his premise, and the others his conclusions, by revealing them for the
straw-men they are.
Sources
Descartes, Rene (1986). Meditations on First Philosophy (translated by Ronald Rubin).
Claremont, CA : Arete Press.
Holbach, Paul Henri Thiry, Baron d' (1899). The System of Nature (translated by H. D.
Robinson). Boston: I. P. Mendum.
Parfit, Derek. Divided Minds and the Nature of Persons. Originally published in Mindwaves
ed. Colin Blackmore and Susan Greenfield (Oxford: Basil Blackwell, 1987), pp. 489-496


:)You know if you have read the above that a great many people have taken a run at this theory, only to fail, do you think you can do better?:shocked:
 
boagie
 
Reply Sun 27 Jul, 2008 07:37 pm
@boagie,
Smile Yo!

That we are a reactionary creatures seems to me so self-evident that I rather arrogantly perhaps, challenge anyone to dispute the idea. Even the diseases to which we are prone are of a reactionary nature, the one difficulty with health that cannot be attributed to this reactionary nature is old age, ware, you just get worn-out. At anyrate if you have another slant on this by all means lets hear from you. EDIT: On second thought even old age can be said to be reactionary, in that old age must be an accumulation of biological damage that is nolonger repaired, the system nolonger reacting to said damage or to an ever increasing lack of repair reaction is old age.
 
 

 
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