ontology is fallible

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TuringEquivalent
 
Reply Mon 29 Mar, 2010 06:57 am
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;145520 wrote:
I am sorry, Turingequivalent, but the world described by Physics is hardly concrete. It consists of many phenomena which have a dubious claim to 'existence'.

Do you know that according to current physical cosmology, more than 95% of the universe is thought to exist in the form of 'dark matter/energy', the nature of which is not understood, and the existence of which is still uncertain?

Tell me what is actual about that.



Science tell us about the 'actual' world. If there are dark matter/ energy, then they too are part of the world, and thus, can be described by physics( i hope).
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Mon 29 Mar, 2010 07:26 am
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;145520 wrote:
I am sorry, Turingequivalent, but the world described by Physics is hardly concrete. It consists of many phenomena which have a dubious claim to 'existence'.

Do you know that according to current physical cosmology, more than 95% of the universe is thought to exist in the form of 'dark matter/energy', the nature of which is not understood, and the existence of which is still uncertain?

Tell me what is actual about that.


Why cannot whether something exists be uncertain, but still be actual? It used to be uncertain whether Uranus existed, but, of course, Uranus did exist.
 
Razzleg
 
Reply Mon 29 Mar, 2010 07:49 am
@jeeprs,
Not to be wishy-washy, but it seems like the two halves of this debate are not really communicating. Both seem like they have some valid points. Leaving aside for the moment the veracity of scientific claims, the question at hand seems to me to be the truth value of statements claiming an ontologically a priori status. But please correct me if I am wrong.

Coming at it from the ontologist's perspective, one cannot reasonably ascertain such a truth value, because the a priori statement itself provides the very conditions for the possibility of truth (or falsity, for that matter.) Truth and falsity are claims made a posteriori, and a priori postulates are not subject to them. If a priori claims cannot be found to be untrue, they may, however, be an insufficient premise upon which to ground further conclusions regarding ontic facts. They may also be found to be in contradiction with other a priori claims, but I don't know that even this theoretical contradiction makes them untrue. Take, for example, Kant's idea of the "thing-in-itself." I think that even Kant wanted to explain it away, but it was too convenient a concept to be dismissed. It is only necessary to prevent several other a priori claims in his critique from becoming contradictory. (Forgive me, I am exhausted, and this point is undoubtedly debatable. I have no interest in defending it.)

On the other hand, following the line of thought Nietzsche lays out in Twilight of the idols, philosophers have a tendency to place last things first. Ontological postulates are, let's say for argument's sake, large generalizations arrived at by making a number of observations and assumptions about ontic phenomena. The relevance of the ontological claim will depend upon the value of the perceived order upon which it is based. An ontology assumes, in some way that the order of things seen is determined by principles unseen, and then speculates as to those principles. Ontological postulates assume, to some extent, the veracity of that order. But if additional historical details arise that disprove the integrity of that assumed order, then I would say that the principles in question are no longer relevant. Think of it this way, one could claim that new scientific observations of how biomes operate makes a Medieval description of the Great Chain of Being irrelevant without disproving anything.
 
jack phil
 
Reply Mon 29 Mar, 2010 01:15 pm
@TuringEquivalent,
TuringEquivalent;145467 wrote:
One way is to see if it logically possible. We can imagine X, and the properties of X. If we find something inconsistent about the properties, the there is a good chance that X probable don` t exist.


Ah, you use the term "logic" to make a gesture at what you agree with and what you disagree with. Contradiction (poetry?) doesn't interest you, so you say it is out of bounds. Well, contradiction and tautology are not out of bounds.

Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus 5.101 (English)

Surely, you can see. Tautologies are certain, propositions possible, and contradictions impossible. Would you call that a unified theory of everything?
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Mon 29 Mar, 2010 01:38 pm
@jack phil,
jack;145701 wrote:
Ah, you use the term "logic" to make a gesture at what you agree with and what you disagree with. Contradiction (poetry?) doesn't interest you, so you say it is out of bounds. Well, contradiction and tautology are not out of bounds.

Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus 5.101 (English)

Surely, you can see. Tautologies are certain, propositions possible, and contradictions impossible. Would you call that a unified theory of everything?


People are either certain or not certain. Statements (like tautologies) are neither certain nor not certain. But they can be necessarily true. And tautologies are necessarily true since it is impossible for a tautology to be false. (Its negation is a contradiction). What you presumably mean by calling a tautology certain is that it is a necessary truth. And that, of course, is true.
 
Pepijn Sweep
 
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2010 02:38 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;145715 wrote:
People are either certain or not certain. Statements (like tautologies) are neither certain nor not certain. But they can be necessarily true. And tautologies are necessarily true since it is impossible for a tautology to be false. (Its negation is a contradiction). What you presumably mean by calling a tautology certain is that it is a necessary truth. And that, of course, is true.



  1. pro
  2. un-decided
  3. contra
  4. caught in Anglo-Saxon tautologies

free again !
 
TuringEquivalent
 
Reply Tue 30 Mar, 2010 03:42 am
@jack phil,
jack;145701 wrote:
Ah, you use the term "logic" to make a gesture at what you agree with and what you disagree with. Contradiction (poetry?) doesn't interest you, so you say it is out of bounds. Well, contradiction and tautology are not out of bounds.

Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus 5.101 (English)

Surely, you can see. Tautologies are certain, propositions possible, and contradictions impossible. Would you call that a unified theory of everything?




I don ` t how something that is logically contradictory can exist. Can you support your case?
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Mon 19 Apr, 2010 01:34 am
@jack phil,
jack;145431 wrote:

Which brings us to premise numero duo: that science tells us what exists and what does not exist. This is an utter confusion of language. For example, if someone says they believe in God, it may not mean that they believe in some transcendental being or whatever, but that they think no matter what happens things will turn out alright.

But that is the scientism of the day... the new high priests... not everything is a hypothesis, or an if/then claim... and to think so is daft... a bias... and completely oblivious to the elephant in the room... or lion, if you will.

Well put. It seems that science is founded on logic and ontology. For me, ontology and logic are one. For beings are logical structures. Science uses math, hugely, of course, and yet what is number? What is the number one, just to start with an "easy" one?
 
jeeprs
 
Reply Mon 19 Apr, 2010 02:05 am
@TuringEquivalent,
The last talk I went to at the Science and Non-duality conference last October was by a mathematician talking about the philosophy of maths. And how numbers can be derived from sets. I can't remember many of the details. However I seem to recall that there is a single set, which is the set of all sets with nothing in them. There is precisely one such set. So there's a start.....
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Mon 19 Apr, 2010 02:39 am
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;153877 wrote:
The last talk I went to at the Science and Non-duality conference last October was by a mathematician talking about the philosophy of maths. And how numbers can be derived from sets. I can't remember many of the details. However I seem to recall that there is a single set, which is the set of all sets with nothing in them. There is precisely one such set. So there's a start.....


Just recently I read something similar, that the rest of math can be derived from set theory. Really, modern math seems like a huge field. I wonder if you are talking about the "null" set. Set theory seems related to proto-logic, etc. I was also reading about the foundations of mathematics. Godel was apparently a Plato man when it came to numbers. He considered them real.
 
TuringEquivalent
 
Reply Mon 19 Apr, 2010 02:57 am
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;153877 wrote:
The last talk I went to at the Science and Non-duality conference last October was by a mathematician talking about the philosophy of maths. And how numbers can be derived from sets. I can't remember many of the details. However I seem to recall that there is a single set, which is the set of all sets with nothing in them. There is precisely one such set. So there's a start.....



That would be like saying " when i am talking about 2+2=4, i am really talking about sets, and operations that act on those sets". This is not intuitive! The second thing is that it does not do away with ontology, since you would be committed to sets, rather than numbers.
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Mon 19 Apr, 2010 03:06 am
@TuringEquivalent,
What is being? Theory.

1. The hard protological core in words and numbers. That which unifies. The principle of identity. What else is substance?
2. The organization of sensations in objects? This is mixed with point 1. Do we not cut up sensation into objects even if the objects are not yet named for us? We say "what is that?" It's already singular and defined as an identity by means of a variable like "what."
 
TuringEquivalent
 
Reply Mon 19 Apr, 2010 03:30 am
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;153891 wrote:
What is being? Theory.

1. The hard protological core in words and numbers. That which unifies. The principle of identity. What else is substance?
2. The organization of sensations in objects? This is mixed with point 1. Do we not cut up sensation into objects even if the objects are not yet named for us? We say "what is that?" It's already singular and defined as an identity by means of a variable like "what."


That is way too deep !:bigsmile:
 
jeeprs
 
Reply Mon 19 Apr, 2010 03:44 am
@TuringEquivalent,
I can't recall the details of that talk, as I said, but it did demonstrate very convincingly how to derive all of the numbers from 1-9 (what others count?) in terms of sets. But it took 45 minutes to go through it, and I was not a mathematically-literate audience member. I will go back to the site and see if I can find the lecturer's name.

Godel was a mathematical realist. I think mathematical realism is a very hard position to refute. Most people don't refute it, they simply fail to grasp it.
 
TuringEquivalent
 
Reply Mon 19 Apr, 2010 03:50 am
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;153903 wrote:


Godel was a mathematical realist. I think mathematical realism is a very hard position to refute. Most people don't refute it, they simply fail to grasp it.

"Numbers don` t exist" is a refutation.
 
jeeprs
 
Reply Mon 19 Apr, 2010 03:53 am
@TuringEquivalent,
TuringEquivalent;153906 wrote:
"Numbers don't exist" is a refutation.


Heh? A refutation of what, exactly? And why?
 
ughaibu
 
Reply Mon 19 Apr, 2010 04:01 am
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;153903 wrote:
I can't recall the details of that talk, as I said, but it did demonstrate very convincingly how to derive all of the numbers from 1-9 (what others count?) in terms of sets.
Start with the empty set and define your successor function as the set of all previous sets. The number of sets in any set corresponds to the natural numbers, beginning with zero.
jeeprs;153903 wrote:
I think mathematical realism is a very hard position to refute.
I think it's a very hard position to support.
 
TuringEquivalent
 
Reply Mon 19 Apr, 2010 04:05 am
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;153908 wrote:
Heh? A refutation of what, exactly? And why?


I said " numbers don` t exist". I said it is a "refutation" of mathematical realism, since mathematical realism claims that "numbers do exist"!

Easy, right?
 
jeeprs
 
Reply Mon 19 Apr, 2010 04:40 am
@TuringEquivalent,
TuringEquivalent;153910 wrote:
I said " numbers don` t exist". I said it is a "refutation" of mathematical realism, since mathematical realism claims that "numbers do exist"!

Easy, right?


This is where we get into the argument about what is real and what exists.

Whenever I bring it up, I get flamed, but I will try again.

I am sure we don't invent number. Numbers must be independent of particular minds because they are common to all who think. In coming to grasp them, consciousness cannot convert them into its possessions or alter them. Also the mind discovers rather than forming or constructing them, and its grasp of them can be more or less adequate. For this reason, numbers cannot be part of consciousness' own nature or produced by consciousness out of itself. They must exist independently of individual human minds.

Yet numbers are not material objects. They are eternal and immutable. They cannot be perceived by means of the senses, but only by reason. In these respects, they are quite different to material objects of any kind.

So in this sense, they are real, but they don't exist.
 
TuringEquivalent
 
Reply Mon 19 Apr, 2010 05:57 am
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;153912 wrote:
This is where we get into the argument about what is real and what exists.

Whenever I bring it up, I get flamed, but I will try again.

I am sure we don't invent number. Numbers must be independent of particular minds because they are common to all who think. In coming to grasp them, consciousness cannot convert them into its possessions or alter them. Also the mind discovers rather than forming or constructing them, and its grasp of them can be more or less adequate. For this reason, numbers cannot be part of consciousness' own nature or produced by consciousness out of itself. They must exist independently of individual human minds.

Yet numbers are not material objects. They are eternal and immutable. They cannot be perceived by means of the senses, but only by reason. In these respects, they are quite different to material objects of any kind.

So in this sense, they are real, but they don't exist.


I don` t see any objection to my refutation. You stated many claims, without any support.
 
 

 
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