The Real is Rational

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kennethamy
 
Reply Tue 20 Apr, 2010 10:13 am
@Fido,
Fido;154496 wrote:
Since you would make a mountain out of a molehill, you may already know...


I guess you don't have an answer. Is that right? Just to make sure, though, I'll ask you again. What is the meaning of a mountain? (I don't expect you to have any answer, since the question makes no sense. So don't feel bad).
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Tue 20 Apr, 2010 12:33 pm
@Fido,
Fido;154396 wrote:
...One is the concept upon which all numbers are founded, and one might say that is the concept, and all other numbers are only signs in relation to One...

I'm glad someone else sees that.
 
Fido
 
Reply Tue 20 Apr, 2010 07:08 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;154519 wrote:
I guess you don't have an answer. Is that right? Just to make sure, though, I'll ask you again. What is the meaning of a mountain? (I don't expect you to have any answer, since the question makes no sense. So don't feel bad).

Just between the two of us, it is the meaning we give to it... If you love the view, it may be magnificent...If you love to farm it may be a waste of space...It is everywhere an impediment, an obstacle.... After everything you can imagine, if you would describe the essence of every mountain, what all mountains have in common as a class, that would be the meaning of a, or any mountain...And to each person, mountain is likely to be a moral quality, all meaning apart from being... We know for example that a mole hill cannot be made into a mountain, and that only some sort of ya hoo would ever ask: What is the meaning of a mountain???

All things have their value in relation to life, and that is their meaning, so meaning will always have that subjective quality no matter how matterial is the object in question, and this situation only grows more subjective the less material is the subject... Empty space is likely to have very little meaning to most people... Do you want me to tell you the meaning of that too???

---------- Post added 04-20-2010 at 09:10 PM ----------

Reconstructo;154562 wrote:
I'm glad someone else sees that.


It is obvious, but is only a parphrase of Aristotle...I woulld like to think I came up with it on my own...
 
longknowledge
 
Reply Tue 20 Apr, 2010 07:34 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;154519 wrote:
I guess you don't have an answer. Is that right? Just to make sure, though, I'll ask you again. What is the meaning of a mountain? (I don't expect you to have any answer, since the question makes no sense. So don't feel bad).

When I used to drive back from work every day, at one point I could see a mountain in the distance that's right near where I live. As far as I know, it doesn't have a name, but to me that mountain meant "Home".

:flowers:
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Tue 20 Apr, 2010 07:48 pm
@Fido,
Fido;154688 wrote:

It is obvious, but is only a parphrase of Aristotle...I woulld like to think I came up with it on my own...

Obvious to some. And I agree that it goes way back. How about Parmenides? And any philosopher who speculates on a single element from which is rest is made.
 
Fido
 
Reply Wed 21 Apr, 2010 04:29 am
@longknowledge,
longknowledge;154693 wrote:
When I used to drive back from work every day, at one point I could see a mountain in the distance that's right near where I live. As far as I know, it doesn't have a name, but to me that mountain meant "Home".

:flowers:

Good one...But; it kind of reveals that there can be no absolute truth that we do not all view subjectively... And this is true of the rational, that in matters where we disagree and think ourselves rational we will think others irrational...

---------- Post added 04-21-2010 at 06:30 AM ----------

Reconstructo;154694 wrote:
Obvious to some. And I agree that it goes way back. How about Parmenides? And any philosopher who speculates on a single element from which is rest is made.

I never met the man...
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Wed 21 Apr, 2010 06:49 am
@longknowledge,
longknowledge;154693 wrote:
When I used to drive back from work every day, at one point I could see a mountain in the distance that's right near where I live. As far as I know, it doesn't have a name, but to me that mountain meant "Home".

:flowers:


I thought we were talking about the word, "mountain". Not mountains. I guess you are just talking about the emotional significance that things may have for this or that person. That is just a personal association that people happen to have with something or other. It has nothing to do with the notion of meaning as we use it when we talk about language. The word, "mountain" does not mean home. In your sense of "mean" when I saw that mountain, all it would mean to me (if anything) is, "Damn. Another stupid hill to climb!".
 
Fido
 
Reply Wed 21 Apr, 2010 10:51 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;154818 wrote:
I thought we were talking about the word, "mountain". Not mountains. I guess you are just talking about the emotional significance that things may have for this or that person. That is just a personal association that people happen to have with something or other. It has nothing to do with the notion of meaning as we use it when we talk about language. The word, "mountain" does not mean home. In your sense of "mean" when I saw that mountain, all it would mean to me (if anything) is, "Damn. Another stupid hill to climb!".

It is your question, but I would suggest that words as signs point to a certain meaning.... Words that signify nothing, mean nothing... The word mountain, like the entire concept of "Mountain", means a mountain, in reality...

This is the ability which humanity has in common, the point that makes us all human; and it is the ability to conceive of reality spiritually... The word is not the thing but the name of the thing and the conception of it; but our ability to call to mind a bit of reality allows our manipulation of it in mind first, and then in reality... The heavy lifting of life is not done with the hands, but in the mind where even mountains are weightless....

What you say that a mountain cannot mean home is false...Mountain may have as many meanings are there are people to consider that meaning... That is the problem with moral reality; that forms, as meaning without being, they are also subjective in their application and interpretation... We might more easily agree on the meaning of "Mountain" even when one man's mole hill is another's mountain, than we could all agree on the meaning of Justice, or Virtue...When we can reference our forms with a physical reality we have an advantage...That is why moral reality presents us with our most intractable problems...

Consider; that when we communicate we do not give things in themselves, but their meaning, and communication is the exchange of meanings...
 
Extrain
 
Reply Wed 21 Apr, 2010 12:17 pm
@Fido,
Fido;154889 wrote:
It is your question, but I would suggest that words as signs point to a certain meaning.... Words that signify nothing, mean nothing... The word mountain, like the entire concept of "Mountain", means a mountain, in reality...


The meaning of a word is not the referent of that word. The meaning of "mountain" is mountain; the referent of the word "mountain" are actual physical mountains.

Kennethamy, as I am sure you can tell by now, we are witnessing the classic confusion between meaning and reference here. Good luck, buddy.Smile
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Wed 21 Apr, 2010 12:24 pm
@Extrain,
Extrain;154914 wrote:
The meaning of a word is not the referent of that word. The meaning of "mountain" is mountain; the referent of the word "mountain" are actual physical mountains.

Kennethamy, as I am sure you can tell by now, we are witnessing the classic confusion between meaning and reference here. Good luck, buddy.Smile


Yes. I don't know how classical it is (although Plato did make the same confusion) But it is certainly classic. There is progress in philosophy. But not much progress in wannabe philosophers.

Anyway, words have meaning. Things have significance.
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Wed 21 Apr, 2010 12:44 pm
@Fido,
Fido;154889 wrote:
It is your question, but I would suggest that words as signs point to a certain meaning.... Words that signify nothing, mean nothing... The word mountain, like the entire concept of "Mountain", means a mountain, in reality...

This is the ability which humanity has in common, the point that makes us all human; and it is the ability to conceive of reality spiritually... The word is not the thing but the name of the thing and the conception of it; but our ability to call to mind a bit of reality allows our manipulation of it in mind first, and then in reality... The heavy lifting of life is not done with the hands, but in the mind where even mountains are weightless....

What you say that a mountain cannot mean home is false...Mountain may have as many meanings are there are people to consider that meaning... That is the problem with moral reality; that forms, as meaning without being, they are also subjective in their application and interpretation... We might more easily agree on the meaning of "Mountain" even when one man's mole hill is another's mountain, than we could all agree on the meaning of Justice, or Virtue...When we can reference our forms with a physical reality we have an advantage...That is why moral reality presents us with our most intractable problems...

Consider; that when we communicate we do not give things in themselves, but their meaning, and communication is the exchange of meanings...

Well written. And yet I bet your explanation will fall on plugged ears. I've been down that road. I agree with all of this, though, and I'm glad to see it well put.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Wed 21 Apr, 2010 12:49 pm
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;154923 wrote:
Well written. And yet I bet your explanation will fall on plugged ears. I've been down that road. I agree with all of this, though, and I'm glad to see it well put.


Well written is not synonymous with well argued, and certainly not, soundly argued. That may come as a shock, but it is true.
 
Extrain
 
Reply Wed 21 Apr, 2010 12:57 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;154925 wrote:
Well written is not synonymous with well argued, and certainly not, soundly argued. That may come as a shock, but it is true.


...this is funny because Reconstructo has expressed his opinion, too, that Nietzschean style rhetoric passes as well-articulated thought...

This just shows the damaging effect bad philosophers have on amateurs. We can partially thank Nietzsche for it.Surprised

Want to hear something silly? I got the "Will to Power" tattooed on my arm when I was 19 and heavily into N-. But the more one's thinking matures, the more one finds the numerous rational absurdities in his writings as one continues to return to his writings throughout the years. Hell, N- did not have a high opinion of logic anyway...so, no wonder.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Wed 21 Apr, 2010 01:08 pm
@Extrain,
Extrain;154929 wrote:
...this is funny because Reconstructo has expressed his opinion, too, that Nietzschean style rhetoric passes as well-articulated thought...

This just shows the damaging effect bad philosophers have on amateurs. We can partially thank Nietzsche for it.Surprised

Want to hear something silly? I got the "Will to Power" tattooed on my arm when I was 19 and heavily into N-. But the more one's thinking matures, the more one finds the numerous rational absurdities in his writings. Hell, N- explicitly held that Logic was optional anyway...so, no wonder.


I guess he thought it was one of those perspectives he is always nattering on about. Have you thought of getting that tattoo removed? "If youth but knew. If age but could". (From the French: Si la jeunesse savait. Si l'agesse puvait).
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Wed 21 Apr, 2010 01:16 pm
@Reconstructo,
I see 3 main lines of objections to statements like the "real is rational."

The first is significance. A person might say "that might be true but it's really only poetry." I think this person is right, except I also feel that they undervalue "poetry." After all, once we are fed and sheltered, and our loved ones are safe, what is life for?

The second line comes from a person who fines this sort of issue fascinating, but simply doesn't agree with this or that particular notion.

The third line is, in my book, a dodge, motivated by an allergy to grand philosophy, an addiction to the masochistic negation of anything that isn't reductive and puritanical. These self-proclaimed garbage men don't exactly have, in my nostrils at least, the sweetest smell. I think we are as likely to find fanatics in this third group as we are among the metaphysical type. To reject metaphysics out of hand is a metaphysical leap of faith. But that's just the opinion of a poet.

---------- Post added 04-21-2010 at 02:18 PM ----------

Let them play among themselves, these haters of poetry. How soon before they are utterly bored with one another? Where will all these negative signs find a home, in such an absence of ideas?
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Wed 21 Apr, 2010 01:19 pm
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;154937 wrote:
I see 3 main lines of objections to statements like the "real is rational."

The first is significance. A person might say "that might be true but it's really only poetry." I think this person is right, except I also feel that they undervalue "poetry." After all, once we are fed and sheltered, and our loved ones are safe, what is life for?

The second line comes from a person who fines this sort of issue fascinating, but simply doesn't agree with this or that particular notion.

The third line is, in my book, a dodge, motivated by an allergy to grand philosophy, an addiction to the masochistic negation of anything that isn't reductive and puritanical. These self-proclaimed garbage men don't exactly have, in my nostrils at least, the sweetest smell. I think we are as likely to find fanatics in this third group as we are among the metaphysical type. To reject metaphysics out of hand is a metaphysical leap of faith. But that's just the opinion of a poet.

---------- Post added 04-21-2010 at 02:18 PM ----------

Let them play among themselves, these haters of poetry. How soon before they are utterly bored with one another? Where will all these negative signs find a home, in such an absence of ideas.


You're a poet?.........
 
Extrain
 
Reply Wed 21 Apr, 2010 01:23 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;154933 wrote:
I guess he thought it was one of those perspectives he is always nattering on about. Have you thought of getting that tattoo removed? "If youth but knew. If age but could". (From the French: Si jeunesse savait. Si agesse puvait).


No, I haven't. I like it, actually, since I consider it a kind *token possession* of a conquered enemy...lol. Ideas can be dangerous, especially when they encourage the suppression of critical thinking, and there is something of Nietzsche's own childlike pride in having "hammered" Nietzsche's philosophy away with Nietzsche's own *hammer*.

In N- own words from Zarathustra, "If he would have lived a little longer, he would have recanted his teachings."
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Wed 21 Apr, 2010 01:28 pm
@Extrain,
Extrain;154943 wrote:


I guess you could charge Nietzsche with his own words from Zarathustra, "If he would have lived a little longer, he would have recanted his teachings."


It wasn't worth even that. Think how much damage he could have done in the meantime. All those IQ points lost by his readers!

I suppose you consider that tattoo a kind of scar. Well, whatever doesn't kill you, makes you stronger. Who the hell said that?
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Wed 21 Apr, 2010 01:31 pm
@Reconstructo,
It might be a little indulgent of me to poke at those whose post I don't even see, but there's your "eye for an eye." I would rather the haters excuse themselves from threads they claim are nonsensical. What does it say about a person that they would waste their time on that which they claim is nonsense? Can they not start their own threads? But perhaps that would require too much honesty. Thread title: "I don't like philosophy, and I don't want you to like it." " Let's back to WORK. Philosophy is WORK. It's a man's job."
"Let's grind away at our trivialities, gentlemen...the future will surely be grateful for our sacrifice. And a curse on those for whom there is meaning in German philosophy....."
 
Extrain
 
Reply Wed 21 Apr, 2010 01:35 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;154946 wrote:
It wasn't worth even that. Think how much damage he could have done in the meantime. All those IQ points lost by his readers!

I suppose you consider that tattoo a kind of scar. Well, whatever doesn't kill you, makes you stronger. Who the hell said that?


ha ha! Yes, this is all very true.

That's why I like having that tattoo on me because it forces me to be humble when I have to explain to people what the hell it means (if it means anything)....something I don't even endorse or hold at all. The humble recognition of error is a good thing; it reminds us we can be wrong.

---------- Post added 04-21-2010 at 01:40 PM ----------

Reconstructo;154948 wrote:
It might be a little indulgent of me to poke at those whose post I don't even see, but there's your "eye for an eye." I would rather the haters excuse themselves from threads they claim are nonsensical. What does it say about a person that they would waste their time on that which they claim is nonsense? Can they not start their own threads? But perhaps that would require too much honesty. Thread title: "I don't like philosophy, and I don't want you to like it." " Let's back to WORK. Philosophy is WORK. It's a man's job."
"Let's grind away at our trivialities, gentlemen...the future will surely be grateful for our sacrifice. And a curse on those for whom there is meaning in German philosophy....."


But isn't "philosophy just poetry" as you say? So let's all just strive hard to poeticize another's ideas away. why not?:rolleyes:
 
 

 
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