Defense of Freewill Against Determinism

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Fil Albuquerque
 
Reply Sat 3 Apr, 2010 09:40 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,


---------- Post added 04-03-2010 at 10:47 PM ----------

kennethamy;148053 wrote:
But that is just the trouble. The regularity does not explain anything at all. Regularities require explanation, they do not provide explanation.


---------- Post added 04-03-2010 at 10:51 PM ----------

Does Logic implies speculation as a method ? You are the Logician you tell me...
 
north
 
Reply Sat 3 Apr, 2010 09:57 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
determinism has no ability other than it is

Free-will has the ability to stay and/or change into
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
Reply Sat 3 Apr, 2010 09:59 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
 
ughaibu
 
Reply Sun 4 Apr, 2010 12:56 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil. Albuquerque;148050 wrote:
The problem with the antinomy Regularity or Necessity only shows up in a open-ended infinite Reality.
Says which? Are you suggesting LEM should be discarded for this question?
Okay, rigorise your position, under which circumstances does the LEM apply?
Otherwise, if you're espousing a discrete ontology, whereby you disregard almost all modern science, what is your argument for determinism?

---------- Post added 04-04-2010 at 04:00 PM ----------

Fil. Albuquerque;148061 wrote:
Of course QM particule behaviour may be pointed as good reason for paralell Universes. .
Bollocks. Science is limited by the need to offer predictions, predictions are, by their nature, deterministic, so the models proposed by scientists are of no consequence, for this question.
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
Reply Sun 4 Apr, 2010 06:27 am
@ughaibu,
ughaibu;148106 wrote:
Says which? Are you suggesting LEM should be discarded for this question?
Okay, rigorise your position, under which circumstances does the LEM apply?
Otherwise, if you're espousing a discrete ontology, whereby you disregard almost all modern science, what is your argument for determinism?.


I am not trying to disregard anything, but simply pointing that if a set its not closed, (if a set is not a set) to where I stand nothing inside it can be defined or related...

but there is more:

Movement in a continuous, infinitely divisible Space turns into a nightmare...
Infinite Space, Infinite Energy Infinite causal progression means an "open set" were ultimately nothing has any sort of explanation, less alone a necessary one. Discrete Space and finite amounts of Energy (even if huge) would make it easier on some of this issues...


ughaibu;148106 wrote:
Bollocks. Science is limited by the need to offer predictions, predictions are, by their nature, deterministic, so the models proposed by scientists are of no consequence, for this question.
Another issue to be clarified, is that LAW is not predicting what is possible in a prescriptive way because the future is already a priori written (instantaneously Existing), but its only reflecting its Total Nature...

---------- Post added 04-04-2010 at 08:17 AM ----------

Bottom line here is that I am not trying to attack Scientific studies on this issues, as I admire all those guys since I has a child, but I am simply trying to come up with a fully satisfying answer...
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Sun 4 Apr, 2010 09:31 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;148053 wrote:
But that is just the trouble. The regularity does not explain anything at all. Regularities require explanation, they do not provide explanation.


I suppose you are right. It is not the regularity itself that explains anything. I suppose I was thinking of the explanation accompanying a regularity and then using that to draw a conclusion. For instance, if I never wore yellow shirts, I could induce that I won't wear a yellow shirt tomorrow.
 
Night Ripper
 
Reply Sun 4 Apr, 2010 09:34 am
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;148225 wrote:
I suppose you are right. It is not the regularity itself that explains anything. I suppose I was thinking of the explanation accompanying a regularity and then using that to draw a conclusion. For instance, if I never wore yellow shirts, I could induce that I won't wear a yellow shirt tomorrow.


No, that's deduction. Since you're going from general to specific and it's deduction that goes from general to specific.

1. All men are mortals
2. Socrates is a man.
3. Socrates is mortal.

Induction would be to infer from a few specific examples of me not wearing yellow that I never wear yellow.
 
hue-man
 
Reply Sun 4 Apr, 2010 09:48 am
@kennethamy,
Determinism isn't incompatible with free will, but it sure does sober the idea up.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Sun 4 Apr, 2010 10:47 am
@Night Ripper,
Night Ripper;148228 wrote:
No, that's deduction. Since you're going from general to specific and it's deduction that goes from general to specific.



But that is not true. For example, consider this argument:

1. All animals are mortal.
2 All humans are animals.

Therefore, 3. All humans are mortal.

This argument goes from the general to the general, and is deductive.

And consider the following argument:

1 If Socrates is human, then Socrates is mortal.
2.Socrates is human

Therefore, 3. Socrates is mortal.

The above argument goes from the specific to the specific. But it is still, deductive.

And there are many other such counter-examples to the slogan (and that is all it is) that induction goes from the specific to the general, and it's deduction that goes from general to specific.

Z's argument is inductive.

But this topic is more appropriate to the Logic section.

---------- Post added 04-04-2010 at 12:54 PM ----------

hue-man;148233 wrote:
Determinism isn't incompatible with free will, but it sure does sober the idea up.


How is that?............
 
Night Ripper
 
Reply Sun 4 Apr, 2010 11:03 am
@kennethamy,
Quote:
Inductive reasoning, also known as induction or inductive logic, is a type of reasoning that involves moving from a set of specific facts to a general conclusion.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inductive_reasoning

He was using deduction not induction. If he would have been moving from a few specific instances of my not wearing yellow to a general conclusion that I never wear yellow then he would have been inducing something.

You are willing to argue about anything, it seems, but if you don't know basic terminology then you won't get very far in an argument. Saying you're inducing something when you're deducing something shows a deep misunderstanding of what induction is. It's important that we correct that now.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Sun 4 Apr, 2010 11:45 am
@Night Ripper,
Night Ripper;148244 wrote:
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inductive_reasoning

He was using deduction not induction. If he would have been moving from a few specific instances of my not wearing yellow to a general conclusion that I never wear yellow then he would have been inducing something.

You are willing to argue about anything, it seems, but if you don't know basic terminology then you won't get very far in an argument. Saying you're inducing something when you're deducing something shows a deep misunderstanding of what induction is. It's important that we correct that now.


Have you considered my counterexamples to the view that deduction always is an inference that goes from the general to the specific? Why are they not counterexamples? I don't care what Wiki says or does not say. Consider my counterexamples. You sound just like those priests who refused to look through Galileo's telescope because Aristotle told them there could be no Moons but that of Earth. That business about deduction going from the general to the specific is just a slogan. It needs examination. And when it is examined it turns out not to be true. Like many slogans.
 
Night Ripper
 
Reply Sun 4 Apr, 2010 12:01 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;148258 wrote:
Have you considered my counterexamples to the view that deduction always is an inference that goes from the general to the specific?


Here's what I wrote:

Quote:
it's deduction that goes from general to specific


I didn't claim deduction always goes from general to specific. However, it is true that deduction goes from general to specific and not induction, unlike what Zetherin incorrectly said.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Sun 4 Apr, 2010 12:04 pm
@Night Ripper,
Night Ripper;148268 wrote:
Here's what I wrote:



I didn't claim deduction always goes from general to specific. However, it is true that deduction goes from general to specific and not induction, unlike what Zetherin incorrectly said.


Z. did not say that at all. He just presented an argument. You are just backpedaling very rapidly. I don't know physics very well, and if I make a mistake, I admit it. You know almost no philosophy or logic.
 
Night Ripper
 
Reply Sun 4 Apr, 2010 12:13 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;148270 wrote:
Z. did not say that at all. He just presented an argument. You are just backpedaling very rapidly. I don't know physics very well, and if I make a mistake, I admit it. You know almost no philosophy or logic.


That you're clearly becoming more and more insulting just shows how incapable you are of admitting you're wrong. You continually misrepresent the positions of others and when you are shown wrong you lash out irrationally.

It's time to face reality.

Quote:
For instance, if I never wore yellow shirts, I could induce that I won't wear a yellow shirt tomorrow.


That's not induction. If you think it is then you're wrong. Now is the time to admit it instead of trying to derail the discussion with strawman arguments about the nature of deduction.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Sun 4 Apr, 2010 12:21 pm
@Night Ripper,
Night Ripper;148276 wrote:
That you're clearly becoming more and more insulting just shows how incapable you are of admitting you're wrong. You continually misrepresent the positions of others and when you are shown wrong you lash out irrationally.

It's time to face reality.



That's not induction. If you think it is then you're wrong. Now is the time to admit it instead of trying to derail the discussion with strawman arguments about the nature of deduction.



If I have never worn yellow, then it certainly does not follow deductively that I won't wear yellow tomorrow. I might very well decide to wear yellow tomorrow. The premise (I have not worn yellow in the past) does not guarantee the conclusion, I will not wear yellow tomorrow. Therefore, the argument is not a deductive argument. But, since the premise does make it probable (but not certain) that I won't wear yellow tomorrow, it is a strong inductive argument. So, the argument is inductive, and it is not deductive.
 
Night Ripper
 
Reply Sun 4 Apr, 2010 12:25 pm
@kennethamy,
Here's what he wrote:

Quote:
For instance, if I never wore yellow shirts, I could induce that I won't wear a yellow shirt tomorrow.
Here's what I've been reading:

Quote:
For instance, if I never wear yellow shirts, I could induce that I won't wear a yellow shirt tomorrow.
So, as you can see. I am wrong. I misread. My mistake.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Sun 4 Apr, 2010 12:29 pm
@Night Ripper,
Night Ripper;148281 wrote:
Here's what he wrote:

Here's what I've been reading:

So, as you can see. I am wrong. I misread. My mistake.


Never mind. .......
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Sun 4 Apr, 2010 12:31 pm
@Night Ripper,
Night Ripper;148228 wrote:
No, that's deduction. Since you're going from general to specific and it's deduction that goes from general to specific.

1. All men are mortals
2. Socrates is a man.
3. Socrates is mortal.

Induction would be to infer from a few specific examples of me not wearing yellow that I never wear yellow.


I thought an example of an inference would be a conclusion drawn from past instances, about what will happen. It's nothing more than a prediction, albeit one with good reasoning.
 
Night Ripper
 
Reply Sun 4 Apr, 2010 12:31 pm
@Night Ripper,
I'd still like a response to #518 from Zetherin though. I can admit when I'm wrong but can he?
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Sun 4 Apr, 2010 12:36 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;148287 wrote:
I thought an example of an inference would be a conclusion drawn from past instances, about what will happen. It's nothing more than a prediction, albeit one with good reasoning.



It is an inductive inference, of course. But whether it is a good one depends on the available information. Suppose, for example that you have been wearing yellow shirts because you don't have any shirts available of a different color. And a shipment of red shirts is expected momentarily. That changes things, doesn't it?
 
 

 
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