The Difference Between Causality and Determinism

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Fil Albuquerque
 
Reply Fri 8 Jan, 2010 09:20 am
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;118483 wrote:
But it doesn't matter if other options had negative consequences.

The officer directing me doesn't change the fact that I wanted to go right, if I did in fact want to go right. My not having another good choice, does not mean that my free will is being affected. As long as I'm doing what I want to do, I am acting on my free will.

Suppose I didn't even consider the negative consequences had I gone straight, I was just focusing on what I wanted to do. Then, 15 minutes later, my buddy says, "Yo, man, had you gone straight down that street you woulda been busted!". Did I now not freely choose what I did, simply because had I done otherwise there would have been negative consequences?



This is a fallacious...you would be disrupting causal continuity if you could chose otherwise...
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Fri 8 Jan, 2010 09:23 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil. Albuquerque;118487 wrote:
This is a fallacious...you would be disrupting causal continuity if you could chose otherwise...


No, I would be going along with the causal continuity, not disrupting. My changing my mind would be a part of the continuity. Just as everything is.
 
fast
 
Reply Fri 8 Jan, 2010 09:23 am
@Zetherin,
Zetherin,

Going to the right is not simply something he did do. It was something he had to do. When he approached the light to turn right, the officer ordered him to go right, so although the compelling force wasn't necessary (since he wanted to go right anyway), the compelling force was present, so by virtue of being ordered to the right (or simply there being a law about abiding by the officers orders that applies to him), he was compelled to do just what he wanted to do.

I'm not saying he was forced to do something against his will, since he wanted to do what he did, but that's not to say he was not compelled to do what he did, and my argument is that he was compelled to do what he did because he had to do what he did or suffer the consequences.

Compelling someone to do something and compelling someone to do otherwise are not the same thing. The law is a compelling force upon us all, so he was compelled to go right, but that the law is a compelling force upon us all isn't to say he was compelled to act in opposition to what he wanted to do. This lies at the heart of the issue.
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
Reply Fri 8 Jan, 2010 09:26 am
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;118488 wrote:
No, I would be going along with the causal continuity, not disrupting. My changing my mind would be a part of the continuity. Just as everything is.
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Fri 8 Jan, 2010 09:26 am
@prothero,
fast wrote:

Going to the right is not simply something he did do. It was something he had to do. When he approached the light to turn right, the officer ordered him to go right, so although the compelling force wasn't necessary (since he wanted to go right anyway), the compelling force was present, so by virtue of being ordered to the right (or simply there being a law about abiding by the officers orders that applies to him), he was compelled to do just what he wanted to do.


Once again, the absence of other good choices, doesn't affect free will.

Quote:
I'm not saying he was forced to do something against his will, since he wanted to do what he did, but that's not to say he was not compelled to do what he did, and my argument is that he was compelled to do what he did because he had to do what he did or suffer the consequences.


That is to say he was not compelled to do what he did. You can't be forced to do something if you want to do it. "You can't rape the willing".

Quote:

Compelling someone to do something and compelling someone to do otherwise are not the same thing. The law is a compelling force upon us all, so he was compelled to go right, but that the law is a compelling force upon us all isn't to say he was compelled to act in opposition to what he wanted to do. This lies at the heart of the issue.



I don't understand.

---------- Post added 01-08-2010 at 10:27 AM ----------

Fil. Albuquerque;118490 wrote:


Given A and B, you can choose A or B. No matter the choice, it is part of the causal continuity. Choose exists, even though it has a cause, and is just a much a part of this deterministic world as everything else.
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
Reply Fri 8 Jan, 2010 09:32 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
At best what you may be proposing from the beginning with kenethammy is a new concept of choice...one that goes directly in opposition and confront to the usual mainly known concept...

---------- Post added 01-08-2010 at 10:34 AM ----------

Zetherin;118491 wrote:
Once again, the absence of other good choices, doesn't affect free will.



That is to say he was not compelled to do what he did. You can't be forced to do something if you want to do it. "You can't rape the willing".



I don't understand.

---------- Post added 01-08-2010 at 10:27 AM ----------



Given A and B, you can choose A or B. No matter the choice, it is part of the causal continuity. Choose exists, even though it has a cause, and is just a much a part of this deterministic world as everything else.
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Fri 8 Jan, 2010 09:43 am
@prothero,
Fil. Abuquerque wrote:

At best what you may be proposing from the beginning with kenethammy is a new concept of choice...one that goes directly in opposition and confront to the usual mainly known concept...


Actually, it is quite an old conception of choice. It is also the most common and widely used. In fact, if you look in a dictionary, you'd find exactly what I'm talking about.

You simply think choice doesn't exist because it is caused. But don't act like you don't know what choice is, or that what I'm saying is novel. It's not.

Quote:


So, you admit that I do have plans? And that we can act on those plans? We may just be getting somewhere!
 
fast
 
Reply Fri 8 Jan, 2010 09:45 am
@Zetherin,
[QUOTE=Zetherin;118491]You can't be forced to do something if you want to do it.[/QUOTE]I'm trying to argue that what you have said is false. Ordinarily, I take your position, but I want to contest it to see if what I'm saying can pan out.

Act like you're gonna go straight instead of to the right like you want to do. They will force you to do just what you wanted to do.

It seems to me that they're out there enforcing the law. They are not singling out people based on what they want. It seems odd to say they are forcing to the right only those that want to go straight; they don't know who wants to go which way.

The presence of force is there. What you want is inconsequential. You must do just what they say or suffer the consequences.
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
Reply Fri 8 Jan, 2010 09:50 am
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;118495 wrote:
Actually, it is quite an old conception of choice. It is also the most common and widely used. In fact, if you look in a dictionary, you'd find exactly what I'm talking about.

You simply think choice doesn't exist because it is caused. But don't act like you don't know what choice is, or that what I'm saying is novel. It's not.



So, you admit that I do have plans? And that we can act on those plans? We may just be getting somewhere!
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Fri 8 Jan, 2010 09:57 am
@prothero,
fast wrote:
It seems to me that they're out there enforcing the law. They are not singling out people based on what they want. It seems odd to say they are forcing to the right only those that want to go straight; they don't know who wants to go which way.

They are instructing everyone to go a certain way, but they are only forcing those people who do not want to go that way, to go that way.

Quote:

You must do just what they say or suffer the consequences.


Suppose I go to a food vendor which offers two choices, A and B. After making up my mind that I would choose A, I go to the vendor to order. While at the vendor someone tells me that choice B would induce food poisoning. I now choose A. I did not freely choose because B would induce food poisoning?

Let's go with your logic, though. Suppose I now was compelled to not choose the other choice. Well, what happened to my previous free choice of choosing A before I got there? Does it just disappear now that I was compelled not to choose otherwise? I don't think so. I don't think this new information (that B induces food poisoning) means I'm not freely choosing now.

---------- Post added 01-08-2010 at 10:58 AM ----------

Fil. Albuquerque;118499 wrote:


What is the question I'm avoiding?
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
Reply Fri 8 Jan, 2010 10:00 am
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;118501 wrote:
They are instructing everyone to go a certain way, but they are only forcing those people who do not want to go that way, to go that way.



Suppose I go to a food vendor which offers two choices, A and B. After making up my mind that I would choose A, I go to the vendor to order. While at the vendor someone tells me that choice B would induce food poisoning. I now choose A. I did not freely choose because B would induce food poisoning?

Let's go with your logic, though. Suppose I now was compelled to choose A. Well, what happened to my previous free choice of choosing A before I got there? Does it just disappear now that I was compelled not to choose otherwise? I don't think so. I think this new information (that B induces food poisoning) does not mean I'm not freely choosing now.

---------- Post added 01-08-2010 at 10:58 AM ----------



What is the question I'm avoiding?


Do you mind of defining Freedom to us, common mortals ???
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Fri 8 Jan, 2010 10:00 am
@fast,
fast;118496 wrote:
I'm trying to argue that what you have said is false. Ordinarily, I take your position, but I want to contest it to see if what I'm saying can pan out.

Act like you're gonna go straight instead of to the right like you want to do. They will force you to do just what you wanted to do.

It seems to me that they're out there enforcing the law. They are not singling out people based on what they want. It seems odd to say they are forcing to the right only those that want to go straight; they don't know who wants to go which way.

The presence of force is there. What you want is inconsequential. You must do just what they say or suffer the consequences.


"I wanted to do it, but I would have had to do it anyway, whether or not I wanted to". To say that I would have had to do it whether or not I wanted to, is not to say that I had to do it (was forced to do it).
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Fri 8 Jan, 2010 10:01 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil. Albuquerque;118503 wrote:
Do you mind of defining Freedom to us, common mortals ???


Now you're just being condescending. Come up with a reasoned response, and maybe I'll answer.
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
Reply Fri 8 Jan, 2010 10:02 am
@kennethamy,
The question was there !

WERE ARE THE EQUAL PARAMETERS BETWEEN OPTIONS ???
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Fri 8 Jan, 2010 10:04 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil. Albuquerque;118506 wrote:
The question was there !

WERE ARE THE EQUAL PARAMETERS BETWEEN OPTIONS ???


I don't know what that means. Equal parameters between options? Speak a little more conversational, my friend, I'm having a really hard time understanding you.
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
Reply Fri 8 Jan, 2010 10:07 am
@Zetherin,
zetherin wrote:
i don't know what that means. Equal parameters between options? Speak a little more conversational, my friend, i'm having a really hard time understanding you.
Choice as to be done in equality of circumstances !!!

 
Zetherin
 
Reply Fri 8 Jan, 2010 10:12 am
@prothero,
Fil. Albuquerque wrote:


Joked about? I'm being as nice as possible here. I genuinely do not understand you. I am not saying that as a joke, or to offend you. I am sorry if it is.

Quote:

Choice as to be done in equality of circumstances !!!


I'm sorry, but I do not understand this. I'll read and reread it again and again. Give me a few moments.
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
Reply Fri 8 Jan, 2010 10:15 am
@Zetherin,
The key word is about FORCE being present to limit your option making...(limit to ONECAUSALITY is\must be COMPELLING ACTION must be NECESSARY ! (in order to be) (LAW School is about that to...)
 
pagan
 
Reply Fri 8 Jan, 2010 11:11 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
in the context of being committed to rationality, causality is not only compulsive it is exclusive.

Conceptually free will is usually considered a force. In the language of causality (above), at that moment of definition free will ceases to be anything to do with freedom. It is locked into the chain of cause/effect. That there may be more than one possible outcome to a particular cause, and that that outcome is statistical (probabilistic) in nature makes no difference. The force had no freedom to choose which of the possible outcomes that actually occurred. There is no choice in throwing some dice and getting the number that actually occurs. In the language of causality there wasn't even a choice as to whether the dice were thrown either. The force rolled the dice and thats it. Free will as a concieved force within such a narrative is no different to any other force. It is machine logic train, whether deterministic or non deterministic. It is written into the narrative itself. If you wear deep red shades...... everything is coloured red. There is no freedom to see blue.

Why do people commit themselves as supporters of the game of scientific and philosophical rationalism? There are many reasons..... intellectual, emotional, spiritual, our characters, our environment, power and so on.

One of the most powerful and compelling (Smile) intellectual arguments is that a human being has yet to be observed to perform a physical act that violates the laws of material science. Therefore the logic goes, man is restrained to the physical, and is a machine. This is a perfectly reasonable argument. A supernatural human force of free will is thus dismissed by a lack of any 'evidence' (scientifically biased of course, but all supporters are biased.). Thus what we thought was free will is the illusion of a machine (but perhaps a compelling and necessary illusion for social cohesion).

Classical determinism was complete in its dismissal of the supernatural. All matter behaves deterministically, all history was predetermined. The cause/effect chain rolled no dice. Post modern scientific indeterminism (lol) ie QM has gaps in it. Science admits defeat at least temporarily with regard to a complete prediction and understanding of the universe. But that does not alter its cause/effect deep narrative. There still remains no scientific evidence of the supernatural. Nevertheless, for the watchers of the game the gap created by probability is interesting.

With our present philosophical understanding of narrative and language, coupled with that present gap in the scientific narrative, there now exists the possibility of a narrative belief in the supernatural force of free will without contradicting the validity of the narrative of science and rationalism. (we 'the game watchers' are not compelled to choose Smile) This is especially true since QM is recognised as rampant on the small scale, of which conceptually the large scale is constructed. Thus free will remains a possible supernatural (ie unscientific) force of nature, that although constrained by the laws of physics, nevertheless has room to manouevre.

But all that is just considered wishful thinking to someone who is a full on supporter of scientific rationalism. Cause/effect and probability rule ok. The rest is semantics.

"But i have free will!" ...... what do you mean by the nature of 'I'. That is the crucial narrative point.
 
Amperage
 
Reply Fri 8 Jan, 2010 11:17 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
to make the assertion that we could not have done otherwise given the circumstances is to presume to know something that could not be known.

Of course we could have done otherwise but through deliberation we did not.

It would seem to me that you're inferring that since only one alternative is ever chosen that means that only one alternative could have been chosen. Well there is no way to verify this that I can see so stating it as fact seems a little presumptuous.

*** EDIT FOR ADDITIONS***
As I've said everything(IMO) needs a cause minus the(an) original cause or causer. In the case of our actions, I submit that my free will is an original cause. Now at the same time we can want to do something and still not be allowed to do it, but in such cases someone or something has to negate our will.

For example, say I want to get through a doorway that someone is blocking and that person says they have orders not to let me through. Now say I still will(or desire or choose or whatever word you want to use) to go in the other room so I try and make a break for it and in the process he knocks me unconscious. My will has just been negated by an outside force but this did not negate that I desired or willed to go to the other room

I think if you separate the will from the act it becomes clearer(for me at least). We are compelled, but the only compelling force that matters is our will.

I guess it reminds me of a quote I heard one time which was "A man can do what he wants, but he can't will what he wills"
which I always took to mean that while I can do anything, the things I desire to do, aren't up to me. For example, I can do school work, but I can't make myself have a yearning for it.
 
 

 
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