Define "being"

@Fido,

I would say that meaning manifests from being - being the acts of observing (this is not limited to physical senses) and creating both of which pretty much happen simultaneously as far as I can tell. Meaning coming from communicating what we have observed and created.

Rich

@saiboimushi,

So what came first??? Being or meaning, chicken or egg???Was being always here waiting to be discovered, and will it always be here even when we are not... Get a grip...Our being is the same being all life on this planet shares... The sun has set, and the stars have risen over the same life from the beginning... We are conscious of being as we are conscious of life, and as long as we have life, but then, it does not matter, so it does not mean.... We cannot carry meaning beyond the grave, and with our lives we have meaning until death does us part...So rather than looking for meaning where it is not, let us concentrate on getting all the meaning available with our being, and then like Faustus, we can say: enough...

@Fido,

Fido;79741 wrote:

Quite the opposite...It is with our lives that we endow meaning... How much meaning do the dead endow???

I don't think that we are reading off the same page here.

Of course we endow our lives with meaning through our actions and our words. But the history of thought of which conceptual ideas and frameworks are part thereof survive the death of the individual who creates them.

What else is the history of philosophy?:brickwall:

And as for how much meaning do the dead endow, well just consider the blood soaked 20th Century.

@Fido,

Fido;79822 wrote:

So what came first??? Being or meaning, chicken or egg???Was being always here waiting to be discovered, and will it always be here even when we are not... Get a grip...Our being is the same being all life on this planet shares... The sun has set, and the stars have risen over the same life from the beginning... We are conscious of being as we are conscious of life, and as long as we have life, but then, it does not matter, so it does not mean.... We cannot carry meaning beyond the grave, and with our lives we have meaning until death does us part...So rather than looking for meaning where it is not, let us concentrate on getting all the meaning available with our being, and then like Faustus, we can say: enough...

Yes, being came first. Meaning came from the boredom of being without meaning. So being created it in order to have meaning. Smile

But with meaning came lots of ansgt, such as what you are displaying, so maybe the pendulum will shift back to lack of meaning. I don't know.

Rich

@Paracelsus,

Paracelsus;79865 wrote:

I don't think that we are reading off the same page here.

Of course we endow our lives with meaning through our actions and our words. But the history of thought of which conceptual ideas and frameworks are part thereof survive the death of the individual who creates them.

What else is the history of philosophy?:brickwall:

And as for how much meaning do the dead endow, well just consider the blood soaked 20th Century.

Again; not!!! Life is meaning... It is in relation to life that all things have their value, positive and negative, valueable and worthless... We can give nothing meaning, and perhaps many notions having no substance... When we find concepts of meaning, it is because they have some relation to reality... We do not make concepts any more than we make symbols... We find a certain relationship, like the reflection to the image, and that is our concept, some times reflected numerically, and sometimes reflected rhetorically... But we make nothing... We find the relationship of reality to life, and there we have its meaning...

---------- Post added 07-27-2009 at 09:45 PM ----------

richrf;79893 wrote:

Yes, being came first. Meaning came from the boredom of being without meaning. So being created it in order to have meaning. But with meaning came lots of ansgt, such as what you are displaying, so maybe the pendulum will shift back to lack of meaning. I don't know.

Rich

Think again...Pattern recognition, recognizing repetitions in nature or in time is the key to our ascendency among animals... When we classify with forms or concept we do the same thing as our primate ancestors, and determing from a certain pattern of behavior, or qualities what genus or species to which any reality belongs...The fact which gives all concepts meaning or value is their relation to our lives... Just as the calls of animals in the dark represent the whole animal, so our concept represent what captures our attention....The meaning is what the concept represents, with a subjective value attached by its relation to our lives...Is it dangerous??? Is it pretty???Is it good???Dangerous and pretty and good to who??? Without the who, the question is meaningless... WE must live to have meaning...Meaning is life...

@Fido,

Fido;79899 wrote:

Again; not!!! Life is meaning... It is in relation to life that all things have their value, positive and negative, valueable and worthless... We can give nothing meaning, and perhaps many notions having no substance... When we find concepts of meaning, it is because they have some relation to reality... We do not make concepts any more than we make symbols... We find a certain relationship, like the reflection to the image, and that is our concept, some times reflected numerically, and sometimes reflected rhetorically... But we make nothing... We find the relationship of reality to life, and there we have its meaning...

This is simply absurd. I do not understand where you are coming from, how can you say we give nothing meaning, sorry we attribute meaning to all our actions what else is function of the examined life?
A person has a perception of the world they then fashion that perception into an idea the idea becomes a concept that is embraced by others through the process of discourse. What don't you understand about this?
"we make nothing" obliviously as I said before we are not reading off the same page.:brickwall:

@Paracelsus,

Paracelsus;79904 wrote:

This is simply absurd. I do not understand where you are coming from, how can you say we give nothing meaning, sorry we attribute meaning to all our actions what else is function of the examined life?
A person has a perception of the world they then fashion that perception into an idea the idea becomes a concept that is embraced by others through the process of discourse. What don't you understand about this?
"we make nothing" obliviously as I said before we are not reading off the same page.:brickwall:

We give zero, as a numerical sign for nothing- meaning... Tecnically, knowledge is judgement, and only judgement over what we can know, which is to say: finite reality can be conceived...But then, we have no finite love, or justice, or truth as a reality, and yet out of a need for our life we name these quasi notions, and judge them all the time, out of the meaning of our own lives...

@Fido,

Fido;79908 wrote:

We give zero, as a numerical sign for nothing- meaning... Tecnically, knowledge is judgement, and only judgement over what we can know, which is to say: finite reality can be conceived...But then, we have no finite love, or justice, or truth as a reality, and yet out of a need for our life we name these quasi notions, and judge them all the time, out of the meaning of our own lives...

Knowledge is a process of acquisition by observation. We are social animals we exist and interact with other sentient beings in society. Our thoughts which are formed by the process of perception then attain shape in language, we engage in discourse and this enables the fabric of concepts and ideas to circulate between people.

We only have a finite perception of our reality, we are not Gods we happen to be human beings, our brains can only comprehend so much.

Love is an affection an experience of both body and mind it is a feeling. Not an abstract idea.

Life has no intrinsic meaning. :poke-eye:

@Fido,

Fido;79899 wrote:

We find the relationship of reality to life, and there we have its meaning ..

I understand what it means to you. I am just suggesting that everyone finds different meaning. For me, just being is enough doing things during the day. Sometimes I invent some meaning to give me more drive, but it is not always necessary. Being came first, and then I had to invent some meaning (which changes over time), to make it interesting. For example, I don't remember having much meaning when I was born.

Rich

@Paracelsus,

Paracelsus;79910 wrote:

Knowledge is a process of acquisition by observation. We are social animals we exist and interact with other sentient beings in society. Our thoughts which are formed by the process of perception then attain shape in language, we engage in discourse and this enables the fabric of concepts and ideas to circulate between people.

We only have a finite perception of our reality, we are not Gods we happen to be human beings, our brains can only comprehend so much.

Love is an affection an experience of both body and mind it is a feeling. Not an abstract idea.

Life has no intrinsic meaning. :poke-eye:

Life has no particular meaning...Life is all meaning...

---------- Post added 07-28-2009 at 08:44 AM ----------

richrf;79916 wrote:

I understand what it means to you. I am just suggesting that everyone finds different meaning. For me, just being is enough doing things during the day. Sometimes I invent some meaning to give me more drive, but it is not always necessary. Being came first, and then I had to invent some meaning (which changes over time), to make it interesting. For example, I don't remember having much meaning when I was born.

Rich

If, what you say is true, that everyone finds different meaning, why do we all meet in the supermarket on Saturday and Sunday...Why do we all go to work on Monday until we are found to be an impediment to making profit...Why do we have so much in common and so little to each of us that is unique...It is because what we are, our biological needs demand constant attention, and this gives the wearwithal of survival a common meaning... What means most to people is the stuff of life...Meaning is value, and values change... Consider, that iif you are well fed, a big mac might seem over priced...If you are starving and some one is sitting on a plie of burgers, then his life might equal a meal... food has the meaning of life all the time, and only when your needs seem satisfied does food become an object of pleasure, or entertainment...The more people are starving while you have food the more entertaining it can be, unless you are conscious of the fact that we share life, and are in this together...

@Fido,

Fido;79963 wrote:

If, what you say is true, that everyone finds different meaning, why do we all meet in the supermarket on Saturday and Sunday...Why do we all go to work on Monday until we are found to be an impediment to making profit...Why do we have so much in common and so little to each of us that is unique...

I don't think we are all robots doing exactly the same thing all the time. I know lots of people who do none of what you describe, so I wonder hy you believe everyone is doing what you suggesting? It is interesting that you view people in a such monolithic manner, while I see them as individuals doing everything in a different way. But we do share relationships since sharing is one aspect of joint observation and creation.

Rich

@Fido,

To me being is at the center and at 90 degrees to all motion, this is where God is centering all creation, this is pure energy and has no motion. As I stay centered in this energy I am able to express Who I AM, God in motion. Richard

@Fido,

Fido;79963 wrote:

Life has no particular meaning...Life is all meaning...

I fail to see the logic behind this. You contradict yourself with each statement that you make.

@saiboimushi,

The common notion of "being" as some sort of fixed static material reality is wrong.

The universe is composed of process "becoming" not "being".
Being is a concept (elements of the past that have been incoporated into the present and may continue into the future).

Everything is in flux: moments or droplets of experience.
Those perceptions or memories of the past that temporarily perist constitute "being".
Any notion of "being" as fixed or permanent is an illusion.

See Plato's forms or Aristotles "essence" or Hume's "I".
Hereclitus "you never step into the same river twice".The concept persists but the river changes.

@richrf,

richrf;79974 wrote:

I don't think we are all robots doing exactly the same thing all the time. I know lots of people who do none of what you describe, so I wonder hy you believe everyone is doing what you suggesting? It is interesting that you view people in a such monolithic manner, while I see them as individuals doing everything in a different way. But we do share relationships since sharing is one aspect of joint observation and creation.

Rich

Ya!!! we're individuals alright...All wearing clothes off the rack, and looking for some one we can follow who is going somewhere interesting...We are preached individualism, and told from our earliest moments that we are individuals but when the facts are in we appear to be the scared little man monkeys we have always been...How about a little honesty, because trying to deny what we are and acting tough and fearless has only caused problems for humanity...And I do not think we are all robots either... People are all different, and do find meaning, when they have the opportunity in all manor of things...Ultimatly, that meaning is based upon the meaning that is their lives, but is expressed in many fashions.. I do not think we all like being put in a box, but worst of all is the false notion of individualism that leaves so many hopeless and lonely, to say little enough of those starving because individualism, as a philosophy having the support and protection of government and law, is truly wasteful of resources...Tell me we all really need our separate houses because no one has the courage or authority to tell us to get along....I support the native Americans, and part ways through a bad winter they will be begging each other to stay with them because they ran out of gas... Where is the lodge house??? There was a deliberate effort to break the Native Americans of their communism, and now that the government has succeeded, it does not support their individualism, and cannot afford to, because the same sort of individualism that has broke the indians is breaking the whole nation... We are not truly individuals, and never completely communistic; but both... And if we were not forever trying to salve our loneliness with some new something that won't help, we would realize that...

---------- Post added 07-28-2009 at 11:24 PM ----------

prothero;80099 wrote:

The common notion of "being" as some sort of fixed static material reality is wrong.

The universe is composed of process "becoming" not "being".
Being is a concept (elements of the past that have been incoporated into the present and may continue into the future).

Everything is in flux: moments or droplets of experience.
Those perceptions or memories of the past that temporarily perist constitute "being".
Any notion of "being" as fixed or permanent is an illusion.

See Plato's forms or Aristotles "essence" or Hume's "I".
Hereclitus "you never step into the same river twice".The concept persists but the river changes.

Our form of being is life, and while our lives flow on we are never the same twice, and yet, always ourselves...

@saiboimushi,

saiboimushi;11753 wrote:

What is "being"? Can one answer this question without a tautology? And if not, why?

Feel free to interrogate the assumptions behind these questions. I don't really mind how you approach the whole matter, as long as you can in some way satisfy my curiosity

Hi all?

This is my second! post, so please be gentle! I realize that I am already 2 years behind with this comment....yet

"The most important thing is to find out what is the most important thing".
[Shunryu Suzuki]

The most important question, I believe is indeed "Who am I?"

Am I Ego, a mind, a Soul or merely a Self created?

Sure enough the Ego is a measure of character, a masque which evolves over time, is characterized by circumstance, and is something, that on the face of it, we all use to vary degrees in different company - so it can't be the real deal can it? There must be more?

What is the prime mover of the mind?
What part of me is the real me?

?Here's maybe one hypothesis worth investigation..

You are neither earth, water, fire, air or even ether.
For liberation know yourself as consisting of consciousness,
the witness of these.
[The Song of Ashtavakra (Ashtavakra Samhita) Chapter 1.3]

ps. You may notice my use of many! question marks? This is a trait to both stimulate discussion and debate, yet I use them regularly to signify a point of reasoning, rather than declaring a statement. - I feel it is up to the individual to reason with these points, there are no right or wrong answers are there?

@CygnusX1,

CygnusX1;80803 wrote:

"The most important thing is to find out what is the most important thing".
[Shunryu Suzuki]

Grasshopper, (sorry couldnt resist.:bigsmile:) Enlightenment is not any particular stage that you attain.

As a westerner I find that the moment of satori could be expressed by the metaphor of jumping a fence but in the moment that one jumps the fence one realises that the fence isnt there in the first place. All life is illusion or is it illustration?

Is Zen a state of being? How and why do differing states of consciousness affect being. Is being constituted by thought and process of thinking?

@Paracelsus,

Paracelsus;87067 wrote:

Grasshopper, (sorry couldnt resist.:bigsmile:) Enlightenment is not any particular stage that you attain.

As a westerner I find that the moment of satori could be expressed by the metaphor of jumping a fence but in the moment that one jumps the fence one realises that the fence isnt there in the first place. All life is illusion or is it illustration?

Is Zen a state of being? How and why do differing states of consciousness affect being. Is being constituted by thought and process of thinking?

Life certainly is not real because it is not eternal; but then, what is????

@Fido,

Fido;87081 wrote:

Life certainly is not real because it is not eternal; but then, what is????

Life is not real? Cut me and I bleed. :brickwall:

@Paracelsus,

Paracelsus;87195 wrote:

Life is not real? Cut me and I bleed. :brickwall:

Kin I??? Or let me say... To you, you are real, and in fact the hyper reality, and the source of all reality... Your life is the only reality -which makes all reality real...Life is the least permanent of things, and the least substantial, and yet it is all meaning because nothing has meaning without Life...

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