Who's afraid of death?

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Pangloss
 
Reply Tue 14 Oct, 2008 08:27 pm
@VideCorSpoon,
VideCorSpoon;22955 wrote:

Socrates was curious, and look where that got him.


Yes, and his death was quite avoidable. He did go to it with the arguments of:

1) you are just speeding up the inevitable; why fear something which can not be stopped?

2) it makes no sense to fear something of which you have no knowledge. we can not compare being alive to being dead, and so with no knowledge of death being good or bad, why fear it? you should only fear that which you know for a fact to be something bad or undesired. death may be better than life.

3) either death will be like a deep sleep, or a congregating of souls in an afterlife. in the first case, man's greatest peace is found in deep sleep, and this peace could certainly not be something to fear. in the second case, it would be a great chance to converse with all of your great ancestors who have come before you and who await you in the afterlife.

This is basically what he says in "the apology". Of course he does contradict himself in that he first declares we have no knowledge of death, so it might be good or bad, and then later declares that there are two good options for death.
 
boagie
 
Reply Tue 14 Oct, 2008 08:35 pm
@MITech,
YO!Smile

It has been said in the past that religion and philosophy are preparations for death, trying to understand and come to terms with the human condition. Every organism is afraid of death, its built in to the biology. It is a real offense to life to make an individual ashamed of the natural inclination of fearing death. The fear of death serves us all well throughout our lives, keeping us from doing foolish things which might end our existents. It can also prevent us from living a full life, so you might say it is a double edged sword.
 
Pangloss
 
Reply Tue 14 Oct, 2008 08:42 pm
@BrightNoon,
Or it can give you license to try/do whatever you want...when you die there are no more consequences for your actions, and this escape is guaranteed!

On heaven and hell, I consider those two concepts to be based on two different states of the human mind, brought to life in the imagined world of literature. No more, no less.
 
Gwyniviere
 
Reply Tue 14 Oct, 2008 09:02 pm
@MITech,
Death terrifies me. It's the not knowing part that really gets my gut in knots. I've thought about collectively dying, but that doesn't appease the anxiety. Death is ultimately something we all must face alone. There is no way of cheating it, or hiding from it. Denying it doesn't change a thing...it's there impendingly looming with it's long, gruesome, gnarly fingers outstretched; waiting for each and everyone of us in turn. I have even tried to find comfort in the fact that none of us escape it's bloodlust, but that only reaffirms DEATH must be respected and not ignored.
Life and death are marriage partners indeed. One must always accompany the other.
 
TickTockMan
 
Reply Wed 15 Oct, 2008 12:24 am
@Gwyniviere,
What is the point of worrying about death? What does it accomplish?

Worry changes nothing, but worry gives us the sense that we're doing something. I actually had someone say that to me about some matter of concern once, in a stern and serious tone of voice: "Well, I may not be able to do anything about it, but at least I'm worrying about it." I wanted to ask them, "Is it doing any good?"

Worrying about the unknown is a pointless activity. There is nothing you can do to plan for the unknown. You can prepare for the unexpected, perhaps, but for the unknown there is no battle strategy which can be drawn up, no action which can be mapped. None at all. Why trouble yourself, and make yourself ill, perhaps even hastening your demise due to stress-induced medical problems?

Is there not enough of the known to occupy our thoughts?

When you are gone, all of your needs will be taken care of for you, automatically, regardless of your belief system, be it Eastern or Western, Theist or Atheist. You won't need a suitcase, or even an overnight bag.

There is no comfort to be found in the knowledge that no one escapes death, because that knowledge still provides no answers as to what happens then, which of course gives rise to anxiety yet again.

Death is not the problem. It's the not knowing that's the problem. But it is a problem with no solution, and at its root, it's a problem of the ego (or the self, if you prefer) which simply Does. Not. Want. To. Let. Go. The ego really hates the idea that it will cease to exist at some point, but the joke is on the ego, because it's already completely intangible . . . it just doesn't want to admit it.

The truth of the matter (at least in my feeble middle-aged mind) is that we could go at any minute, for any reason. So why waste what unknown time you have worrying about it? About most things, really. Be aware of that, and appreciate every moment, even the not so good moments, and your life will open like a lotus.

Good grief. "Open like a lotus." Did I really say that? What a moron. How embarrassing.

I have no answers.

Salute,
Tock

_________
"Stop saying 'Life is Short.' Give it a break. What are you going to do that's longer than your life?" -- Unknown
"Your shoes don't care whose feet they go home on." -- Gil Fronsdal
 
Doobah47
 
Reply Wed 15 Oct, 2008 07:39 am
@TickTockMan,
Often somebody who feels some sense of righteousness or glory in what they do wants to have some kind of epithet or fame associated with their memory, almost willing themselves to death in order to guide life. Strange, but somewhat complimentary to the essential cycle of 'living' events and processes. That's one angle.

Another angle is that being stinky and running about the place might be compromising of one's integrity - maybe a smoker thrown out of a restaurant, or a farter thrown off the couch. So, if one's decaying remains cause a stench, then surely the integrity and charm of the once living is lost.

The two angles relate - who would want one's most avid admirers and lovers to have the recollection of a foul smelling, maggot infested corpse, when one has tried so hard to reach the pinnacle of achievement?

All in all, I'd reach back to the original post in saying that the form that one takes in death, or conversely the formation of the event, is the most important factor in preserving the essence of life that once was, thus causing death to be a more bearable, magnificent experience for all involved.
 
Pangloss
 
Reply Wed 15 Oct, 2008 11:02 am
@BrightNoon,
I confess that my main fear of death is dying without dignity. It's a selfish feeling, I know, but I don't want to meet my end with the feeling that I haven't accomplished something worthwhile, or at least truly attempted something worthwhile. I would also prefer not to be remembered by friends and family as "here lies pangloss. he was a jerk, and did nothing with his life. the end." Great glory or fame is not my goal, but at least to be remembered as "something" more than "nothing".

I realize this argument doesn't rationally make sense because once you are dead, then who cares how you are remembered, and who cares what your last thoughts are in reflection upon an incomplete life. Perhaps it stems from my desire to find meaning in my existence; if I can be satisfied with my life at the end, and if others agree that it was satisfactory, then that gives some meaning to the whole business.
 
TickTockMan
 
Reply Wed 15 Oct, 2008 01:34 pm
@Pangloss,
Pangloss;27878 wrote:
I confess that my main fear of death is dying without dignity. It's a selfish feeling, I know, but I don't want to meet my end with the feeling that I haven't accomplished something worthwhile, or at least truly attempted something worthwhile. I would also prefer not to be remembered by friends and family as "here lies pangloss. he was a jerk, and did nothing with his life. the end." Great glory or fame is not my goal, but at least to be remembered as "something" more than "nothing".

I realize this argument doesn't rationally make sense because once you are dead, then who cares how you are remembered, and who cares what your last thoughts are in reflection upon an incomplete life. Perhaps it stems from my desire to find meaning in my existence; if I can be satisfied with my life at the end, and if others agree that it was satisfactory, then that gives some meaning to the whole business.


Failing to accomplish anything of note in my mortal existence, I'd at least like my method of departure to be so astonishing that people would remember it for years to come.

"Wow . . . did you hear about TickTockMan?"
"No, what happened?"
"He was pulled into tiny pieces by a runaway automatic rice picking machine."
"That's horrible! Where was he?"
"Just walking down the street, minding his own business. The rice picking machine
came out of nowhere and . . . bam!"
"How awful!"
"Yes, then all the little bits of him were eaten by chimpanzees."
"Well, I guess these things happen."
"He wasn't wearing any pants either."
"Hey, did you hear that Madonna's getting a divorce?"
 
Gwyniviere
 
Reply Wed 15 Oct, 2008 01:39 pm
@TickTockMan,
Now... that's funny tick tock thank you for the giggles.
 
boagie
 
Reply Thu 16 Oct, 2008 09:40 am
@Gwyniviere,
YO!Smile

Consider for a moment that, all fear is the fear of death, this at first might seem absurd but think about fear in nature, there is only one fear, the fear of death. The degree that it has become abstract in modern times just makes it more difficult to identify the object of ones fear and admit to the fear of death Think about any number of fears and try linking them back to this basic fear in nature, why would a man get up every morning and go to work at a job he hates, see what mean? Stress really hard to nail down sometimes.
 
ariciunervos
 
Reply Thu 16 Oct, 2008 10:44 am
@boagie,
Fear of death ? Non-sense ! You don't die when you die, any 6 years old can tell you that. You go somewhere else ! Everybody hopes they go to Heaven, it's much better there than living here on Earth. There's nothing to be afraid of ! Good believers never fear death.

Only evil people fear death, and it's not death they fear, because you don't die when you die, remember ? It's going to Hell that's scary. But what if they repent at the last moment ? What if there's a priest by their death bed to absolve them of their sins ? No harm no foul, Heaven awaits !

Fear of death ? Why ? Some cultures don't even believe in a hell. People either go to a "good happy place" (the anti-earth) or reincarnate to live again. Immortality either way. There is no death!

Yet absolutely everyone fears death, because deep down we all know this immortality stuff is a crock of ****. Isn't religion fun ? :a-ok:
 
boagie
 
Reply Thu 16 Oct, 2008 11:17 am
@ariciunervos,
Smile
Just excellent!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Gwyniviere
 
Reply Thu 16 Oct, 2008 12:39 pm
@ariciunervos,
I'm a little confused here. Are religion and death assumed to be synonomous?
 
boagie
 
Reply Thu 16 Oct, 2008 12:44 pm
@Gwyniviere,
Gwyniviere wrote:
I'm a little confused here. Are religion and death assumed to be synonomous?


Gwyniviere,Smile

Just having a little fun, but, you might say that religion is a response to the temporal nature of life, after all they do promise everlasting life, if you believe just what your told. I think its sex and death are said to be synonomous, after you procreate your done, your purpose in life then is to look after this new life form.
 
BrightNoon
 
Reply Mon 20 Oct, 2008 12:03 pm
@boagie,
Failing to accomplish anything of note in my mortal existence, I'd at least like my method of departure to be so astonishing that people would remember it for years to come. Tick-Tock-Man

A man after my own heart, though I never can decide between the grand spectacle, the comedia della morte, or the private tragedy of epic proportions, such as sailing a small ship into the middle of a hurricane. And sometimes I think about the subtle glory of falling over dead drunk in a gutter, in imitation of so many good fellows.

Consider for a moment that, all fear is the fear of death, this at first might seem absurd but think about fear in nature, there is only one fear, the fear of death. The degree that it has become abstract in modern times just makes it more difficult to identify the object of ones fear and admit to the fear of death Think about any number of fears and try linking them back to this basic fear in nature, why would a man get up every morning and go to work at a job he hates, see what mean? Boagie


Very interesting. Is there an opposite of fear that is as universal?
 
boagie
 
Reply Mon 20 Oct, 2008 12:13 pm
@BrightNoon,
BrightNoon;Smile


"Very interesting. Is there an opposite of fear that is as universal?[/quote]

Well, do we not spend most of our time in distractions, certainly in youth one does not think much about ones own mortality unless there is a direct threat, when young we are, relatively immortal. Acually some one pointed out to me in this forum that this reality was indeed a consideration in psychological circles, so it does have validity. There is indeed only one fear in nature, and that is the fear of death.
 
BrightNoon
 
Reply Mon 20 Oct, 2008 12:34 pm
@boagie,
Yes, I agree. My point is this; if all fear is the fear of death, might all love, e.g., be the result of lust? As fear is generalized, I wonder if other basi emotions could be also.
 
TickTockMan
 
Reply Mon 20 Oct, 2008 01:15 pm
@BrightNoon,
BrightNoon;28511 wrote:
Yes, I agree. My point is this; if all fear is the fear of death, might all love, e.g., be the result of lust? As fear is generalized, I wonder if other basi emotions could be also.



"If our gods and our hopes are nothing but scientific phenomena, then it must be said that our love is scientific as well" - "L'Eve Future," Auguste Villiers

Quoted in the opening titles of one of my favorite movies, "Ghost in the Shell: Innocence."


Perhaps somewhat relevant . . . ?
 
Khethil
 
Reply Mon 20 Oct, 2008 02:57 pm
@BrightNoon,
BrightNoon wrote:
Yes, I agree. My point is this; if all fear is the fear of death, might all love, e.g., be the result of lust? As fear is generalized, I wonder if other basi emotions could be also.


I've heard this theme before, and although it feels off-topic, I don't think it is. For the purpose of this post, I'm assuming you mean "Romantic" or love with some kind of physical/sexual element...

The basis is this: For all emotions, no matter how subtle, twisted, confused, chemically-induced, musically-produced or fickle, there exists a primal motive ('death' in the case of fear, 'lust' in the case of love, 'survival' in the case of greed, etc.). In this, I think there are some definite correlations - some connection - to the extent that this might be, I'm unqualified to say.

Nice point Brightnoon
 
TickTockMan
 
Reply Mon 20 Oct, 2008 03:21 pm
@Khethil,
Khethil;28537 wrote:
I've heard this theme before, and although it feels off-topic, I don't think it is. For the purpose of this post, I'm assuming you mean "Romantic" or love with some kind of physical/sexual element...

The basis is this: For all emotions, no matter how subtle, twisted, confused, chemically-induced, musically-produced or fickle, there exists a primal motive ('death' in the case of fear, 'lust' in the case of love, 'survival' in the case of greed, etc.). In this, I think there are some definite correlations - some connection - to the extent that this might be, I'm unqualified to say.

Nice point Brightnoon


Perhaps even lust and love result from the fear of death?

Knowing that we ourselves cannot escape physical death, we do the next best
thing we can to achieving immortality: passing along our genes.
 
 

 
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