I am against porn. I know the argument against it. But i do not really understand the argument for it. Could anybody help me?:poke-eye:

4 the record i mean i think it is illogical to veiw porn. like red tube and playboy. that kind of ting

Now what happens when we lift taboo? What prevents an individual (if it is an animal) from becoming rapist? The only thing that remains is the fear of punishment.

religion when understood as thou obviously understandest that is nothing but hallowed way of living which contributes to the surviving of community.

First you instill in the head of children from all your culture how good is it to have sex in abundance, that it is the necessary component of what they call love.

I cannot see why I am wrong.

Now what happens when we lift taboo? What prevents an individual (if it is an animal) from becoming rapist? The only thing that remains is the fear of punishment. In this case, if one knows that he won't be punished, he will easily go and take what he wants, which cannot be accepted by society, therefore it will keep on upholding that taboo.

But its nature remains and manifests itself sometimes in rape or in hiring prostitutes, or in watching pornography. It remains egoistic. Violence is the manifestation of egoism. I think the link here is quite obvious.

I don't know what prevents thee from becoming a rapist. Maybe another taboo, the taboo of the rights of others, or the taboo of mutual agreement for sex...
See, this weapon "taboo" may easily turn against those who use it...

I think you really need to sort your ego out. I am also a realist. I realise, that everything anyone ever does is for their own benefit, just like killing an animal for it's meat. But at the same time, I do have respect for women. Perhaps this is something you do not have, and that is why you need it so reinforced. Life is not to be lived by caring about what people like you think, life is ultimately about being happy, and if pornography makes people happy, then what of it?

I can only assume that thinking like this is the result of living in a repressive culture/society ? Please keep that in mind.
We all have the capability to establish and live according to our own ethical values. It is not a 'requirement' that we be threatened by some power with punishment in order to live an ethical life.

- Eudaimon

Grossly inaccurate and misrepresentative of the intent of western child education and parenting.

I also feel that your arguments are burning red with moral preconceptions of sex; that it is wrong to have sex 'known about', or to have it for that matter, bar under religious/marital permission.

Perhaps some of the west’s issues relating to sex (e.g. increases in teenage pregnancies and STD/STI) are to do with a drift away form religion, but this can only be an intellectually healthy thing and these problems are very much being acted upon; these things take time and there is no easy way to change the mind sets of young people. Also bear in mind that cultural and social change is drastic here with every generation, and a generation (or generations) of atheists are trying to find morals in a world with no God. Good intellectual exercise to say the least and the right and righteous path of humanity.
But, by and large there is no apparent agreement amongst children (ages 6-16) that it is ‘good to have sex in abundance’, in fact it’s quite the opposite in many friend groups. I don’t know how many GCSE drama performances I have watched this term already which are about friend groups alienating a member because one of them starts smoking and having promiscuous sex.
I think, to be honest, you know nothing of western childhood, particularly British, and should reserve your damning and cruel generalisations until you’ve had some experience working with them. They are generally delightful and caring individuals who I enjoy working with very much. Opinions like yours are what damage childhood.
Dan.

People do not operate like this, you are being dishonest. How do I know? Because let's put it in another context.

Drinking alcohol is legal. I could drink alcohol any time I wanted but I don't. Why? Are you implying there is a taboo that prevents me from drinking and that is why I don't? No. I care nothing for what people think about drinking. I have drank, I don't any more, but it is not because of a taboo. But you are saying that if something was allowed then in my case I should be out drinking, but I'm not?

If you made murder legal tomorrow, I would not go out killing people. You might, but I don't NOT do stuff because they are illegal or legal. I do NOT do stuff because of taboos or lack of taboos. I care nothing for those things.

No, it might be egotistical but it's definitely NOT violence. This is you being dishonest again. You are taking two aspects and putting them together but they have absolutely no reason to be placed together. I also would not say that violence is always a manifestation of egoism. That is you projecting and I can see that you justify everything based off egoism or the lack of it, to state your position, but you are not being honest to what the definitions mean. Pornography might be egoistic but it's definitely not violent.

Pornography does not make people happy.
Yes, we do everything for our own benefit. But it happens that we can only be happy, "gain benefit", when we have compassion to others, when we value others as HUMANS, not as things, this is what I am trying to convey. Only when one feels the infinite value of others, not as means of pleasure, not as means of getting money, there one may be happy.
When one is watching pornography with desire to "relieve himself", he stops seeing crippled souls of those men and women, he just spits upon them.

Agree. But my words should be understood in the context. "Taboo" here was first used by Krumple in opposition to a certain natural behaviour. What was that natural behaviour according to him, I have no idea. Therefore I assumed that this is animal state with all its consequences. I think that in this case, every ethical behaviour should be considered as a result of a certain set of taboos.

Thanks for this, but this is again not what I was basically saying. I was not speaking about intentional education, but rather of the atmosphere in general. Let us look at those "youth comedies" with constant sexual implication? There is an obsession with sex in western culture (Russia included), but in some people it remains on the level of vulgar jokes, watching pornography and so on. They are somehow stopped.
But some people with greater susceptibility learn that this is the most important side of life, perhaps the only important. I personally know some girls who think so. And this is tragedy, because they think that the only possible relationships which can be between man and woman are sexual. Many of them start smoking, drinking, taking drugs... They have know faith in good, love anymore, they actually agree that they are things and want to get as much material benefit from it as possible. And the most terrifying thing is that WE when watch pornography and do all the rest I described, not only support such a view in them, but with every year create more and more new victims.

Taboo is not what is illegal.

Taboo is much more delicate. Why don't people walk nude in the streets when it is hot?

As to alcohol, I think we should examine it carefully, I'd like to ask thee why thou dost not drink anymore.

But can we at least agree that watching pornography an violence spring from the same source, i.e. egoism?

So if one is watching it, he may be called egoist that is one having the source of violence, of struggle, in himself?

But some people with greater susceptibility learn that this is the most important side of life, perhaps the only important. I personally know some girls who think so. And this is tragedy, because they think that the only possible relationships which can be between man and woman are sexual. Many of them start smoking, drinking, taking drugs... They have know faith in good, love anymore, they actually agree that they are things and want to get as much material benefit from it as possible. And the most terrifying thing is that WE when watch pornography and do all the rest I described, not only support such a view in them, but with every year create more and more new victims.

You like to say it portrays the people involved in a negative connotation. The people in pornography a majority of the time WANT to be there. They are not forced into it as you want to imply that they are some how victims against their will. That is dishonesty.
Your definition of these girls is bent and twisted perspective. Yes some of them are moved into realizing that men are focused on sexual gains and they can exploit those desires in men by utilizing their sexual appeal. Not all women do this, not all women can do that, and it is dishonest to claim that that is their over all motivation for taking drugs. You are the only one calling them victims, but I bet if you asked them, they would not claim to be victims.

I am aware of that. You were trying to claim that if the taboo were lifted that somehow everyone would become rapists. I was trying to point out to you that people don't NOT do something because they are illegal but instead they probably have their own personal reasoning why they don't do something. If murder was legal, I wouldn't go around killing people because it is now legal to do. I wouldn't become a rapist if the sexual taboo were gone.

Some places they do. However; probably don't in all places because the people who want sex to be taboo cry and complain and force the police to tell them to put clothes on, so they don't have a choice if they want to enjoy the day outside of a jail cell.

Yeah but so is everything else. Work, play, religion, hobby, art, sleeping, breathing, everything.

Regardless, I am interested in the 'atmosphere' which I do think your right about and which seems to shroud university campuses in sex, and furthermore, how combating this could be realised, as I think it has a negative effect on student's studies and culture. Sadly, the only real and workable answer seems to be censorship on a mass scale, which is the case in some eastern countries, which is no good thing. Also there could be some kind of disciplinary actions issued via the university. I do know for a fact that at the University of Cambridge, specifically Homerton College, there has been issued warnings and threatened expulsion to students for being excessively drunk and disorderly in front of television cameras. But that was only because it was recorded on TV and the University had to act or look like they were promoting said behaviour. But, maybe this sort of attitude could be extended to combat the atmosphere of 'party time' and, perhaps then, sexual frivolity.

cannot really proceed in any depth without first even defining the term "pornography". Because lacking a common agreed upon definition we can't even address the topic - but only people's reaction to the topic.

Thy position is based upon a superstition of free will which is the main superstition of Western thought system. People are free to do what they want to! "If one has commited a crime being conscious thereof, he must be punished!" Ha-ha-ha.

The choice, my friend, is always conditioned. Therefore, one may blindly follow a certain idea of happiness which is absolutely inconsistent with reality. Therefore, whether they call themselves victims or think they are is absolutely not important for me because I can see beyond these superstitions.

I can see what happiness really is and what I am doing is making people see what it is as well.

The superstition of free will has always been the best justification for human cruelty.

Again the same thing. Thou considerest the decisions of some people as caused by taboos, and of others (and thine own, of course) as being the result of free reasoning. Isn't that ridiculous?

Don't try to make it so simple. People dress even if there is no one who wants to call a policeman. That's a fact.

I think we have to agree what we mean by egoism. Egoism in my usage is the disposition of mind which stresses the importance of desires of a certain individual regardless of others. This is the beginning of all conflicts, of all disorder we have today.

In the case of pornography that centre ignores the suffering of others which IS present, it stops seing others as humans.

The same may refer to all the things thou hast listed if done from that centre which is ego. But if the ego drops these things are neither good nor bad, so long as they don't harm the SOULS of others.

After all, I am speaking not about the solution of a certain social problem like prostitution or pornography or violence. I am concerned with making man happy, and this will automatically solve all social problems. I should like to remember Herzen's words: "If only people, instead of trying to save the world, started saving themselves, and, instead of liberating mankind, started liberating themselves, how much would they do for the salvation of the world and the liberation of mankind".

He looked round hurriedly, he was searching for some-thing. He wanted to sit down and was looking for a seat; he was walking along the K-Boulevard. There was a seat about a hundred paces in front of him. He walked towards it as fast as he could; but on the way he met with a little adventure which absorbed all his attention. Looking for the seat, he had noticed a woman walking some twenty paces in front of him, but at first he took no more notice of her than of other objects that crossed his path. It had happened to him many times going home not to notice the road by which he was going, and he was accustomed to walk like that. But there was at first sight something so strange about the woman in front of him, that gradually his attention was riveted upon her, at first reluctantly and, as it were, resentfully, and then more and more intently. He felt a sudden desire to find out what it was that was so strange about the woman. In the first place, she appeared to be a girl quite young, and she was walking in the great heat bareheaded and with no parasol or gloves, waving her arms about in an absurd way. She had on a dress of some light silky material, but put on strangely awry, not properly hooked up, and torn open at the top of the skirt, close to the waist: a great piece was rent and hanging loose. A little kerchief was flung about her bare throat, but lay slanting on one side. The girl was walking unsteadily, too, stumbling and staggering from side to side. She drew Raskolnikov's whole attention at last. He overtook the girl at the seat, but, on reaching it, she dropped down on it, in the corner; she let her head sink on the back of the seat and closed her eyes, apparently in extreme exhaustion. Looking at her closely, he saw at once that she was completely drunk. It was a strange and shocking sight. He could hardly believe that he was not mistaken. He saw before him the face of a quite young, fairhaired girl-sixteen, perhaps not more than fifteen, years old, a pretty little face, but flushed and heavy looking and, as it were, swollen. The girl seemed hardly to know what she was doing; she crossed one leg over the other, lifting it indecorously, and showed every sign of being unconscious that she was in the street.
Raskolnikov did not sit down, but he felt unwilling to leave her, and stood facing her in perplexity. This boulevard was never much frequented; and now, at two o'clock, in the stifling heat, it was quite deserted. And yet on the further side of the boulevard, about fifteen paces away, a gentleman was standing on the edge of the pavement, he, too, would apparently have liked to approach the girl with some object of his own. He, too, had probably seen her in the distance and had followed her, but found Raskolnikov in his way. He looked angrily at him, though he tried to escape his notice, and stood impatiently biding his time, till the unwelcome man in rags should have moved away. His intentions were unmistakable. The gentleman was a plump, thickly-set man, about thirty, fashionably dressed, with a high colour, red lips and moustaches. Raskolnikov felt furious; he had a sudden longing to insult this fat dandy in some way. He left the girl for a moment and walked towards the gentleman.

"What do you mean?" the gentleman asked sternly, scowling in haughty astonishment.
"Get away, that's what I mean."
"How dare you, you low fellow!"
He raised his cane. Raskolnikov rushed at him with his fists, without reflecting that the stout gentleman was a match for two men like himself. But at that instant some one seized him from behind, and a police constable stood between them.
"That's enough, gentlemen, no fighting, please, in a public place. What do you want? Who are you?" he asked Raskolnikov sternly, noticing his rags.
Raskolnikov looked at him intently. He had a straight-forward, sensible, soldierly face, with grey moustaches and whiskers.

And taking the policeman by the hand he drew him towards the seat.

The policeman saw it all in a flash. The stout gentleman was easy to understand, he turned to consider the girl. The policeman bent over to examine her more closely, and his face worked with genuine compassion.
"Ah, what a pity!" he said, shaking his head-"why, she is quite a child! She has been deceived, you can see that at once. Listen, lady," he began addressing her, "where do you live?" The girl opened her weary and sleepy-looking eyes, gazed blankly at the speaker and waved her hand.
"Here," said Raskolnikov feeling in his pocket and finding twenty copecks, "here, call a cab and tell him to drive her to her address. The only thing is to find out her address!"
"Missy, missy!" the policeman began again, taking the money. "I'll fetch you a cab and take you home myself. Where shall I take you, eh? Where do you live?"
"Go away! They won't let me alone," the girl muttered, and once more waved her hand.
"Ach, ach, how shocking! It's shameful, missy, it's a shame!" He shook his head again, shocked, sympathetic and indignant.
"It's a difficult job," the policeman said to Raskolnikov, and as he did so, he looked him up and down in a rapid glance. He, too, must have seemed a strange figure to him: dressed in rags and handing him money!
"Did you meet her far from here?" he asked him.
"I tell you she was walking in front of me, staggering, just here, in the boulevard. She only just reached the seat and sank down on it."


"The chief thing is," Raskolnikov persisted, "to keep her out of this scoundrel's hands! Why should he outrage her! It's as clear as day what he is after; ah, the brute, he is not moving off!"
Raskolnikov spoke aloud and pointed to him. The gentleman heard him, and seemed about to fly into a rage again, but thought better of it, and confined himself to a contemptuous look. He then walked slowly another ten paces away and again halted.

She opened her eyes fully all of a sudden, looked at him intently, as though realising something, got up from the seat and walked away in the direction from which she had come. "Oh shameful wretches, they won't let me alone!" she said, waving her hand again. She walked quickly, though staggering as before. The dandy followed her, but along another avenue, keeping his eye on her.
"Don't be anxious, I won't let him have her," the policeman said resolutely, and he set off after them.
"Ah, the vice one sees nowadays!" he repeated aloud, sighing.
At that moment something seemed to sting Raskolnikov; in an instant a complete revulsion of feeling came over him.
"Hey, here!" he shouted after the policeman.
The latter turned around.
"Let them be! What is it to do with you? Let her go! Let him amuse himself." He pointed at the dandy, "What is it to do with you?"
The policeman was bewildered, and stared at him open-eyed. Raskolnikov laughed.
"Well!" ejaculated the policeman, with a gesture of contempt, and he walked after the dandy and the girl, probably taking Raskolnikov for a madman or something even worse.
"He has carried off my twenty copecks," Raskolnikov murmured angrily when he was left alone. "Well, let him take as much from the other fellow to allow him to have the girl and so let it end. And why did I want to interfere? Is it for me to help? Have I any right to help? Let them devour each other alive-what is it to me? How did I dare to give him twenty copecks? Were they mine?"

Why especially women or homosexual men?
Because straight men give it away for free?

I guess it would be unussual for a straight man to be a prostitute. We do what we like and get money for it. LOL

How much of the anti-pornography feeling is related to misogyny? Do some feminists consider it taboo for a woman to enjoy the passive position? Is the anti-porn feeling related also to homophobia?

If I remember correctly, for the Romans what was taboo for men was to be the passive partner. The taboo was not on homosexuality so much as passivity in sexual relations. I suppose you might call it the slave-role in a master slave relationship. Are we dealing with something like that here?

In a democratic age of increasing freedom in regards to lifestyle, is the one taboo a choice away from freedom? Zizek examines this is The Ticklish Subject. Food for thought.

Why would you be against something that is clearly so pleasurable and healthy? Surely, you are checking out the wrong porn. And I know this seems kind of lame, but I have a feeling this might be a generation kind of thing.

How old are you?

Overall I think porn is good, but we should be informed more about it in school, who are very scared of touching the subject, which is foolish.

Good for whom? I already answerd that in my former post, which you have quoted.

However, for many people it can be a sexual stimulant for couples, or helping feature for lonely people.

or to those who act in pornography? It's a double edged sword, it can make many people ritch, deliver many from provery, as it can also ruin weak people who seek fortune in the porn industry.

Perhaps for the benefit of society, or putting it better: for the survival of society, it would be better to carry out experiments on people, to sacrifice some of them for the health of majority. Perhaps that would decrease the level of deaths as we knew which medicine is harmful. Does that make it "good"? What is thy criterion for "good"?

In Denmark we already have direct prove, it has lowerd our statistic on rapes, as men could relive themselfs with porn.