Who owns your soul?

Get Email Updates Email this Topic Print this Page

sometime sun
 
Reply Fri 4 Jun, 2010 08:24 pm
@GoshisDead,
GoshisDead;172536 wrote:
I was reading in Bergson's the Creative Mind last night the chapter titled INtroduction to metaphysics. He noted that metaphysics is the (paraphrasing because I'm at work) the non-empirical science. By this he means that it is singularly subjective. It is the study of the intuitive. I know that there are materialist folks here that will automatically scoff at the non-empirical study of anything, but I propose 9as in I have the opinion that) that the soul as presupposed by the OP is just such a thing, an intuitive knowledge of self.

Whether one defines it as consciousness, spirit, soul, mind whatever, it the recognition of said in oneself. It is a simple act that encompasses a plethora of information such as duration, past, experience, speculation, being, fear, hope, doubt. That if we were to experience our duration, our past could be analyzed contains discrete instances. It is like a stretched out rubber band with discrete points written on it and all those instances are visibly discrete but in experiencing duration or (living life) we experience our past as that same rubber band without tension. One can no longer discern individual experiences so easily but they are still there.

I am not necessarily saying that our soul is our memory. I am simply using the bergson rubber band thing as a rough shod analogy for the manner in which our metaphysical study of the soul may be experienced.

To answer Sun's question about the worth and transferability of the soul, I would say. My soul's worth to me is exactly how much I value myself within the context of my belief structure. My eternal soul (as I do have one, because I have intuited it) I have no idea how much it is worth, as I am not a player on the eternal open market soul exchange. Can i sell it? I think I can barter it. In a more religious sense, that would be non-repentant sinning. In a more personal sense it would be commiting actions that would undermine my idealized sense of self.


A soul is only worth what value others put on it? (talking of the divine and sin, again can soul reasonable be measured weighed by ethical standards, morality immorality, law)
Can the law be the yard stick for the soul?

---------- Post added 06-05-2010 at 03:26 AM ----------

mark noble;172540 wrote:
Hi Sun,

This is along similar lines to your OP

How often, alone, in your thoughts do you need to be you?
Where in the world do you fit?
And, To whom are you true?

This helped me answer a lot of my own questions once. The answers have never changed.

Shine On, Sun

Mark...

Is not all soul communion, community, communication?

---------- Post added 06-05-2010 at 03:30 AM ----------

Deckard;172541 wrote:
I was going to say "Property is Theft" but owning souls is more like murder by Proudhon's formulation.

If owning a soul has any meaning it would apply to slavery in the sense that a slave master owns the soul of the slave and the slave-trader buys and sells the souls of slaves.

Can you give your soul away? Well you can lay down your life for another but self-sacrifice is something else entirely.

Perhaps we have it all wrong and the ONLY thing that can be owned or owns is the soul and all else including flesh is nought but worthless?

Perhaps soul owns us?

---------- Post added 06-05-2010 at 03:33 AM ----------

And Deckard perhaps sacrifice is the ultimate souls control?
Perhaps the soul fights us all its existence to be able to sacrifice the body so as to let the soul be truly free?

---------- Post added 06-05-2010 at 03:36 AM ----------

Deckard;
Perhaps the soul is looking for the other to be the sacrifice?
Perhaps the soul is working to be worth enough for someone else to sacrifice for it?

---------- Post added 06-05-2010 at 03:37 AM ----------

Deckard; does a soul teach soul?
or does a soul only learn soul?
Which has the more valuable 'soul' the teacher or the pupil?

---------- Post added 06-05-2010 at 03:40 AM ----------

Mad Mike;172609 wrote:
This is a topic that's sort of near and dear to me, so I was browsing this thread with some interest, but unless I missed it, I still haven't seen anyone propose a definition of soul. So what the heck, I'll offer this as an opener:

"Soul is that which, when it is present in a physical object, the object is said to be living, and when it is absent, the object is said to be dead."

For me, it's not a problem that this means soul is synonymous with life, but I suppose someone else might object to that.

Is the soul the sayer or the said?

---------- Post added 06-05-2010 at 03:44 AM ----------

Zetherin;172611 wrote:
Ah, so all living organisms have souls? Even tiny amoebas, since they are considered living? Interesting. And where do all the souls go after they leave the organism upon death? I must have removed at least a dozen souls from the ants I stepped on today. I suppose you could even say I now own their souls! What do you think?

This says you own their life because you killed them.
So to say this Hitler owns the souls of all the people he killed.

Even if you want to take soul out of the picture, did not they die FOR something not because of something?

You could say here FOR is soul, but don't if you don't want to.
FOR is still a value is it not?

---------- Post added 06-05-2010 at 03:51 AM ----------

reasoning logic;172621 wrote:
When I think of the word soul this is what comes some what close to what I have in mind.
The word psychology literally means, "study of the soul".[1] It derives from Ancient Greek: "ψυχή" (psychē, meaning "breath", "spirit", or "soul"); and "-λογία" (-logia, translated as "study of").[1] The Latin word psychologia has likely origins in mid-16th century Germany. The earliest known referernce to the English word psychology was by Steven Blankaart in 1693 in The Physical Dictionary which refers to "Anatomy, which treats of the Body, and Psychology, which treats of the Soul Smile

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psyche_(psychology

Soul then is expression of self?
What is expression?
It is the measurable action or reaction of things.
Yes psychology could mean soul.
Now we delve into sanity or insanity also and whether if you are reasoned as more insane whether you have more or less soul?
Can the soul or psyche here be weighed and measure by the criteria of either the common mind or even intelligence be the weighing evaluation?
EVALUATION.
Can any one soul be heavier lighter than another one soul?
Common?
Is the soul intelligence?
Is there more or less intelligence?

---------- Post added 06-05-2010 at 03:59 AM ----------

Huxley;172646 wrote:
(1) My stomach confines my body to the set of actions that will satisfy the stomach.

(2) Given our current economic model, my body must then act such that it remains employed.

(3) In order to remain employed, one must do as their employer directs.

(4) Due to (1) and (2), one must always have an employer.

(5) Ownership of an object is the ability to direct that object.

(6) Whatever the soul is, it is confined to the body (at least in this life)

(7) The body is an object.

Putting things together: My employer directs my body (an object), which houses the soul, and this is, by definition proposed in (5), ownership. Further, this is a necessary condition of existence due to (1), (2). Therefore, My employer owns my soul. Very Happy

Emphasis on SATISFACTION.
What is the quality that satisfies?
What is the quality of satisfaction?
EQUALITY?
Opposite of equality is???
Can the soul be referenced be prejudicial?

Must the soul be paid?
Must the soul earn?
Can the soul skive off?

Is the soul the skivvy?

---------- Post added 06-05-2010 at 04:05 AM ----------

Ding_an_Sich;172659 wrote:
A soul is but a thing/
That withers through time/
Within man's being/
Oh how we make it sublime/

When it becomes apparent/
That our face reflects it/
A portal to the spiritual/
Perceived through the material/

If it could be bought/
I scarce think one would want/
The one he has withered and worn/
But a bright one, newly born/

Oh if man knew of the soul/
Perhaps he would not be so bold/
To not let his folly run afoul/
And preserve the soul, thus extolled/

Silly silly. Very Happy

Soul is....
Sublime is sublimation?
Apparent is transparent?
Reflection is deflection?
Preserved is reserved?

---------- Post added 06-05-2010 at 04:09 AM ----------

Deckard;172661 wrote:
Ownership is a legal construct. Possession might be more accurate.

I don't disagree with what you are saying. It just occurred to me that it may be useful to distinguish between ownership and possession.

Ownership is an agreement between the owner and the owned?
Possession is an entitlement between possessed and possessor?

---------- Post added 06-05-2010 at 04:11 AM ----------

Mad Mike;172770 wrote:
I think all living organisms have a share of soul, even tiny amoebas, yes. But I don't think "where" has anything to do with what happens to the bits of soul in organisms at death, because I think everything living is always "in" soul. As for those ants, I don't think you "own" their souls by killing them, but you might "own" the karma of killing them.

Karma the ultimate in debt collectors.

---------- Post added 06-05-2010 at 04:13 AM ----------

Karma; what pays the life or the death? Both? soul?

---------- Post added 06-05-2010 at 04:19 AM ----------

ughaibu;172780 wrote:
Is this associated with anything in particular, for example, self organisation, self direction?

Higher auctioner adding value or cheapening it?
Is there an auctioner or is it only the seller and purchaser?
In other words do souls have choice over the body to the body over the soul?
Soul soul serving?
Self self serving?
SERVICE?
Is the soul a service?
Is this how one can measure soul by the service?
What not who is being served first or last or all instantaneously?

---------- Post added 06-05-2010 at 04:21 AM ----------

Mad Mike;172770 wrote:
I think all living organisms have a share of soul, even tiny amoebas, yes. But I don't think "where" has anything to do with what happens to the bits of soul in organisms at death, because I think everything living is always "in" soul. As for those ants, I don't think you "own" their souls by killing them, but you might "own" the karma of killing them.

Back again, the 'where'.
Can something be valued by the position it takes or is shown its seat?
Is there a place for soul?
Is it seated somewhere?
Is it waiting to be seated?

---------- Post added 06-05-2010 at 04:24 AM ----------

Sorry Twirlip I did not quite get to you, will see you tomorrow.
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Fri 4 Jun, 2010 09:25 pm
@sometime sun,
Yeah, he'll get to you tomorrow Twirlip, don't fret.
 
sometime sun
 
Reply Fri 4 Jun, 2010 09:36 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;173241 wrote:
Yeah, he'll get to you tomorrow Twirlip, don't fret.

What is this supposed to mean?
It sounds mean spirited.
And you know if there is anything you don't understand but would wish to you only need to ask.
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Fri 4 Jun, 2010 09:39 pm
@sometime sun,
sometime sun;173242 wrote:
What is this supposed to mean?
It sounds mean spirited.
And you know if there is anything you don't understand but would wish to you only need to ask.


Mean is...

Transparant?
Deflective?
Reserved?
 
sometime sun
 
Reply Fri 4 Jun, 2010 09:48 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;173244 wrote:
Mean is...

Transparant?
Deflective?
Reserved?

Is this your answer to my question or is it you asking them of me?
I which case I still don't know what you mean.
If I am transparent what is it you see?
If you are being transparent I still cant see.
If I am being deflective what am I deflecting?
If you are deflecting I don't know what you are deflecting.
If I am being reserved what am I reserving?
If you are reserved I don't know what you are reserving.

If these are questions about my use of these words in previous posts I will have to wait till tomorrow to answer, if you would be so good as to ask me a clear question concerning and sighting them I would know what to say.

Again a simple question are you being mean?

---------- Post added 06-05-2010 at 04:52 AM ----------

I'm sorry Zetherin pay me no attention I am being both paranoid and needy.
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Fri 4 Jun, 2010 10:31 pm
@sometime sun,
[QUOTE=sometime sun]Again a simple question are you being mean?[/QUOTE]
I'm not being mean, I'm just poking fun at how unclear you've been.

I'm sorry, maybe it is just me, but I have absolutely no clue what many of your posts mean.
 
sometime sun
 
Reply Fri 4 Jun, 2010 11:12 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;173253 wrote:

I'm not being mean, I'm just poking fun at how unclear you've been.

I'm sorry, maybe it is just me, but I have absolutely no clue what many of your posts mean.

Well I don't want to be the ruin of fun, poke away.
I have said it before but my sense of humour is difficult to understand and has difficulty understanding 'funny'.

Of course it is likely not just just you who finds me difficult to gather.

But instead of this poking fun what about gathering me toward you and ask me to explain myself.?

I would love it if more did this.
Krumple is quite regular which just says to me he may not have given up on me entirely just yet. But the Krumple has this sense of humour I find hard to grasp as well.
I cant give up on any of you guys.

But in explanation of my posts, I try to keep some posts shorter because I keep being told this is what is best to be done, so I give to the senses and the cliff notes.

I am not beyond circumspection or circumvention.
And you must know by now I am not beyond expansion.

Why do you not trust that I am valid enough for you to ask proof or reasoning from?
It is likely even on expansion some of my notions will be shown to be balderdash and piffle but I am at a disservice because I am still left believing it because no one has trusted me enough for me to show my proof and then also that I can accept on occasion I will be wrong.
I am not here just to prove or be proven I am write, I am also here to prove and be proven I am wrong.
I am not so delusional.
As to think I know everything and have everything sussed.
I am really the least pretentious person you can meet, although I understand my use of language can give this impression.
It is a defence mechanism, not against being proven wrong but against being laughed at and dismissed.

Am I really that laughable? dismissable?
If so I am at least glad I make you smile.Smile
 
Fido
 
Reply Fri 4 Jun, 2010 11:17 pm
@sometime sun,
sometime sun;172487 wrote:
Who owns your soul?

Can a soul be owned?

Can a soul be bought or sold?

Can you give it away?

How much do you think your soul is worth?

Do you think a soul is ultimately worthless?


Prove the soul so I may lay claim to it...
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Fri 4 Jun, 2010 11:19 pm
@sometime sun,
sometime sun;173268 wrote:

But instead of this poking fun what about gathering me toward you and ask me to explain myself.?


I asked for clarification earlier:

Zetherin wrote:
Are you asking, what is the value of a definition? Are you asking this from a linguistic point of view? Your writing is so cryptic, I don't know exactly what you mean.


So, no, I didn't immediately give up on you.
 
sometime sun
 
Reply Fri 4 Jun, 2010 11:20 pm
@sometime sun,
If you can understand this you can still come to understand me.
There's life in the old dog yet.Smile

---------- Post added 06-05-2010 at 06:23 AM ----------

Zetherin;173272 wrote:
I asked for clarification earlier:



So, no, I didn't immediately give up on you.

I hadn't gotten to you yet, you must have seen I going from start to finish and that I had to stop at Twirlip, and Twirlip came before your request for clarification, I will tomorrow try.

You didn't 'immediately' give up on me, which you have to some degree now?

---------- Post added 06-05-2010 at 06:28 AM ----------

Fido;173271 wrote:
Prove the soul so I may lay claim to it...

It may be the very nature of soul which claim cannot be layed which is to mean you may also not prove.
For if we were to prove, would it not then be able to be sold?
It cant be proven for the reason it does not want to be sold?
 
Krumple
 
Reply Fri 4 Jun, 2010 11:37 pm
@sometime sun,
I'll sell mine, any buyers?
 
Deckard
 
Reply Fri 4 Jun, 2010 11:57 pm
@wayne,
wayne;172586 wrote:
If I can make you mad enough to cause a resentment I can live there rent free. :bigsmile:

Pay attention folks. Wayne is giving us a little glimpse into the mind of a psychopath. :bigsmile:
 
sometime sun
 
Reply Fri 4 Jun, 2010 11:59 pm
@Krumple,
Krumple;173278 wrote:
I'll sell mine, any buyers?

I'm not buying, but if you ever wanted to give it to me freely I may accept if I thought I had earned it.
But I can barely afford my own so the responsibility and work of for yours would be to much for any one man to bear.
WE earn our souls.
It takes dedication and hard graft.
Nothing is free until dead.
And even then there may be restrictions.
Can we indeed give it over.?
Can we relinquish it?
I know you Krumple may then say 'I relinquish, I relinquish'
Which means to me it cannot be relinquished,
unless another soul would could willingly carry?

---------- Post added 06-05-2010 at 07:18 AM ----------

Deckard;173286 wrote:
Pay attention folks. Wayne is giving us a little glimpse into the mind of a psychopath. :bigsmile:

Are there some humans who have no soul?
Or may it be there but unusable?
 
prothero
 
Reply Sat 5 Jun, 2010 12:26 am
@sometime sun,
Perhaps there is only one soul, and no one owns it.
Or perhaps there are no souls and still no one owns them.
In most mystical religious traditon the notion of individual souls is an illusion.
 
sometime sun
 
Reply Sat 5 Jun, 2010 12:47 am
@prothero,
prothero;173293 wrote:
Perhaps there is only one soul, and no one owns it.
Or perhaps there are no souls and still no one owns them.
In most mystical religious traditon the notion of individual souls is an illusion.

All soul is all life, All life is all God, All God is all soul.
This is my position.
Now whether I put my self there or something else did is not yet known by me.
 
prothero
 
Reply Sat 5 Jun, 2010 12:52 am
@sometime sun,
sometime sun;173299 wrote:
All soul is all life, All life is all God, All God is all soul.
This is my position.
Now whether I put my self there or something else did is not yet known by me.
Cosmic mind and World soul (universal).
It is possible there is only one mind and one soul or so the ancients said.
In fact is was pretty much perceived wisdom now lost in the modern age.
 
sometime sun
 
Reply Sat 5 Jun, 2010 01:06 am
@prothero,
prothero;173301 wrote:
Cosmic mind and World soul (universal).
It is possible there is only one mind and one soul or so the ancients said.
In fact is was pretty much perceived wisdom now lost in the modern age.

Please What ancients and can they be quoted?
 
stevecook172001
 
Reply Sat 5 Jun, 2010 01:06 am
@sometime sun,
sometime sun;172487 wrote:
Who owns your soul?

Can a soul be owned?

Can a soul be bought or sold?

Can you give it away?

How much do you think your soul is worth?

Do you think a soul is ultimately worthless?

You can't own something that does not exist.

You can, however, own a psychological constructof that something.

Can you buy and sell a psychological construct? I guess so. But, since a psychological construct can be re-made, there is a major problem with price stability.
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Sat 5 Jun, 2010 05:32 am
@stevecook172001,
stevecook172001;173305 wrote:
You can't own something that does not exist.

You can, however, own a psychological constructof that something.

Can you buy and sell a psychological construct? I guess so. But, since a psychological construct can be re-made, there is a major problem with price stability.


By psychological construct, do you mean idea? You are right, then, I guess; ideas can be sold. For instance, suppose I invented a new hybrid car motor. If I sold the schematics for this motor, I suppose we could say, with tongue in cheek, that I sold my idea.

[QUOTE=sometime sun]You didn't 'immediately' give up on me, which you have to some degree now?[/QUOTE]

My relationship with you is just about the same.
 
Fido
 
Reply Sat 5 Jun, 2010 05:56 am
@sometime sun,
sometime sun;173273 wrote:
If you can understand this you can still come to understand me.
There's life in the old dog yet.Smile

---------- Post added 06-05-2010 at 06:23 AM ----------


I hadn't gotten to you yet, you must have seen I going from start to finish and that I had to stop at Twirlip, and Twirlip came before your request for clarification, I will tomorrow try.

You didn't 'immediately' give up on me, which you have to some degree now?

---------- Post added 06-05-2010 at 06:28 AM ----------


It may be the very nature of soul which claim cannot be layed which is to mean you may also not prove.
For if we were to prove, would it not then be able to be sold?
It cant be proven for the reason it does not want to be sold?


As a moral form, having meaning without being, and an infinite the soul cannot be said to exist... And clearly, what the Greeks called soul- anima, we do possess, and though we do not sell our souls by the gross, we do sell them by the hour, the minute, and the second; and wish all the while our lives away as though a curse when curse or not, they are all we have...

Perhaps this is why the Protestants so prized Capitalism- because it caused people to wish away their only lives on earth to possess some fictional life in a fictional heaven...We think of capital as producing happiness, but what if the happiness it was to produce was the furthest thought from the minds of those most responsible for its being, that what they sought was a social form capable at a stroke of the clock of producing misery for millions.... It is not happy people who surrender their lives and desire to go to God... Happy people seek to prolongue their lives, while possible,, to enjoy the happiness they have worked for...It is tormented spirits who seek in spirituality an end to their torments, and at least there, they are not off the mark because with life goes misery...
 
 

 
Copyright © 2020 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.02 seconds on 08/03/2020 at 11:52:38