But it is an example of that, only if it is an example of that. But how do you know it is an example of that? Why do you think they made it ok first? Maybe they didn't and knew it was evil and did it anyway. If you suppose they made it ok first, then you are just begging the question, since that is exactly what is under dispute. You cannot simply suppose what is under dispute.

I really don't know what you are driving at. It is late.

kennethamy -- Have you put my dare to the test yet? Have you attempted to do something you know is evil - so you can test whether or not you first have to "make it right" to be able to do that which you know is evil?

Does not all evil lie in the jusitification thereof?

And does that not mean that Evil can not know itself as Evil?

Lost1

And does that not mean that Evil can not know itself as Evil?

I never knew evil even had the capacity for knowledge. Do you mean evil is some sort of sentient being?

I know what you said sounds profound and you'd most likely have no trouble incorporating it into a romantic poem, but can you explain to me what you mean, literally, please.

Literally, I meant exactly what I said, evil being the doer of evil. Perhaps I should have pointed out that to avoid someone else thinking I thought evil was a sentient being?

Actually, I stole a piece of pie from my wife, which I knew was evil. I did not think it was all right. In fact, I rather enjoyed doing it. I not only did not justify it, I did not even excuse it. My wife was most annoyed, too.

I almost had to admit I was wrong about people not having to first make something right (justify) before they could take action...but then I reconsidered after some thought on what I highlighted in red above...I do believe there are many who would call that a justication...

Lost1

P.S. Not that I believe you would listen to marital advise, but your wife likely did not care so much that you ate her piece of pie as it saying to her that you could not care less about her feelings. ... I know I've gone to far.

How would the fact that I enjoyed doing something evil be justification for it. Some Nazis enjoyed murdering Jews. That was a justification for murdering Jews. I would have thought it did not only not justify it, it made it worse.

Sometimes I think that evil doesn't actually think or reason out it's actions and that is why it does evil things. I like to use the knight and the dragon as examples since people can easily comprehend what I mean.

There is a knight and there is a dragon, from which perspective is the evil? If the dragon has never done anything evil is it still evil? The knight might just label the dragon evil because it is not a knight, even if the dragon has never done anything evil. The knight might even justify slaying the dragon even if it has done nothing evil simply because it perceives the dragon to be evil. So now who is the evil one? When the knight shows up at the dragon's lair to slay it, isn't the knight the evil one from the dragons perspective?

This simple little story based reasoning, I can conclude that evil often times neglects to rationalize it's own position and just acts without consideration. This is why I say, "A good person can become evil if it tries to destroy evil."

A truly good person can not destroy anything because they must allow the evil to exist because those are the rules a good person lives by. You often see this in movies when the good person pardons the evil villian during the final scene. But then the evil villain always forces the good person into killing them anyways which actually goes against the whole premise of the good position.

Nazis killing jews happened because they either rationalized themselves as being superior to jews or they neglected to rationalize their motivation to begin with. If they saw the jews as being the evil in their life, they will conclude that they should be destroyed. This is what people jump to, even though I have proven that it makes them evil to do that. Thus this is why we can now reflect back and label nazis evil. If you want to destroy them you will have to become evil in the process. That is exactly what happened too.

Don't you mean "A good person can become evil if it tries to destroy perceived evil"? That is the trick when discussing things with most Christians I've debated with, you have to show them the distinction between perceived evil and evil before they will get you at all.

Well I take another step with evil. I say it doesn't exist, it is only a subjective view point to begin with. If you say all life is sacred yet turn around and squash a bug, then obviously all life to you is not sacred. But if you say all human life is sacred then you kill someone in self defense, you really do not believe all human life is sacred either.

So you really have to be honest with your definition. When I hear people say all life is sacred, what I hear is, "My life is sacred to me." They really don't care about anyone else's life. They might have a concern for their family, or friends but beyond that they typically don't care. Especially if that person had a negative title associated with them.

Re: killing even though "all life is sacred"

I usually think of the (somewhat romanticized) attitudes of the American Indians. They killed the buffalo for food but they also believed the buffalo and it's life to be sacred.

That's less evil and more civilized than the factory farming nightmare that sells it's neatly packaged meats to willfully ignorant shoppers.

You should be willing to kill it if you are willing to cook it.

You should be willing to kill it if you are willing to cook it.

I agree with this of course but if you are willing to cook it that doesn't mean you have to be willing to factory farm it. I should also say that I fall way short on this. I'm not a vegetarian just a guilty omnivore who doesn't have the discipline to become a vegetarian. Nor do I always buy so called "free range" (and what is free range really? There are no actual regulations. Its just a word) Maybe someday.

I'm not so much opposed to meat eating as I am to factory farming. There is no way to simultaneously perpetuate factory farming and still be holding life to be sacred.

Yes well, if I think that factory farming is evil and I still buy some non-free range chicken breasts then I am knowingly committing an act that I consider to be evil. I have to change or I just haven't got a moral leg to stand on. I ought to be ashamed. I'm not sure if I feel ashamed. I know that I am evil. I accuse myself. I convict myself but I don't condemn myself to change. What the hell is the matter with me? Why am I so God damned evil?

What exactly is it the makes you feel factory farming is morally evil? What elevates it above just being bad?