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Hedonism is not happiness but the opposite thereof.
I've only skimmed through a few links on the site, but someone should really check Mr. Pearce. He writes:
"Two hundred years ago, powerful synthetic pain-killers and surgical anesthetics were unknown. The notion that physical pain could be banished from most people's lives would have seemed absurd."
In 1803 morphine was discovered, a synthetic drug. Just one example. Also, even today, the notion that physical pain can be banished from most people's lives is still absurd. We have become remarkably adept at treating pain, but eliminating physical pain: not quite.
If you want to end suffering, end egocentrism. Science is not required for this task.
Hedonism is not happiness but the opposite thereof.
You're right Morphine was discovered earlier but when was the general use of anesthetics first implemented in widespread medical practice? Or when was it's use accepted by the general public and medical profession in western countries?
True, we are still not very good at eliminating pain - or more accurately I should say : 'we still have a long road ahead'.
Just as we are not very good at eliminating suffering through any means including methods of ending 'egocentrism'.
I've personally put many Buddhist masters to the test, they all suffer just as you and I do. Lessening the aversive circuitry through sublimation is very limited in efficacy.
Try meditating through your next intensely aversive experience - if definately helps but definately does not eliminate suffering.
Hedonism means many things to different people. How would you define hedonism? Do you think that Abolitionism is the value of hedonism over happiness?
I believe there's a misconception at work here and would like to suggest an alternative.
I believe, DT, that within the context in which you're referring to the term is not so far off. But I'd like to point out how I believe this term - hedonism - has been bastardized and ought be set straight.[INDENT]The definition/context/meaning to which I believe they refer is the seeking of pleasure in all its forms - not just ones we consider 'slovenly'. The smile on the face of my son, the feel of a warm breeze on my face, the satisfaction of having helped my neighbor in with her groceries or having read a revealing post on the Forum; these are all pleasures that I seek. Should this all lead to the 'opposite of happiness'?
[/INDENT]We tend to take the tenor of a term and apply our own bias. Perhaps that's not what you've done, but I sense it a lot; and when I see summary condemnations such as your statement appears to be, I feel it important to point out what I see to be the correct (or at least what I see to be the 'more correct') intent of the concept.
Thanks
Sounds like Huxley's "Brave New World". Let's all pop our soma and experience the 'infinite bliss'!
One person's utopia is another's dystopia.
I thought pleasure and happiness was is two different things..try smoking a ciggy its pleasure but not happiness..
AB : I'll speak for David here - I think he is referring to the use of substances which allow us to be oblivious to pain, like being unconscious while we undergo an operation. His timeline might be wrong...
AB : only if you believe in a difference between the two. We only experience physical pain as subjectively aversive experience. Sometimes we do it willingly when we believe or are conditioned to think that it will bring us pleasure afterwards or concurrently. You could say that pain receptors are active even when we do not notice but this still sends signals via the neurological system to the brain.
AB: I mentioned this because you said that science was not needed to remove suffering, only the elimination of egocentrism.
David uses the title "Hedonistic Imperative" but this doesn't mean he advocates pleasure at the expense of lifelong individual happiness - I think the wording choice is mostly aimed at a catchy title
You're right Morphine was discovered earlier but when was the general use of anesthetics first implemented in widespread medical practice?
'Sounds like' is your argument?
do you think Soma accomplishes the objectives of Abolitionism? If so, why?
True we all have different ideas about how to pursue happiness. That's why the recommendation is to work through human rights aimed at allowing individuals to pursue happiness voluntarily.
They are. But isn't it a a narrow view that equates all pleasure to those things which usurp happiness? Many experiences are most-pleasurable, and include practices, relationships and good deeds that lead to a place many would call 'happiness'.
Or perhaps, is it your view that only the displeasurable, the painful, which leads to happiness?
Thanks
Imsure certain pleasures can give happiness but happiness is a state of mind, possible fleeting when pleasure is involved. When i think of my children happiness is my feeling not physical pleasure..Ah thats it..physical pleasure and thoughtful pleasure... happiness...Thankyou again khethil for making me give it more thought..
What's your argument? You throw out these goals like "end suffering", just like many say they are "for world peace". Yet, you so far have not offered any real plans or ideas for accomplishing this goal. First, you might try to define "happiness" and "suffering", and then convince us why it is good to always have the former and not the latter. How would we even measure happiness without suffering, suffering without happiness?
So of course I won't have much more to argue right now, because you have not provided any type of concrete description and proposition relating to these goals that you have vaguely presented.
Abolitionism does seem to be a hedonistic perspective
happiness is a biological state of pleasure, that depends on many variables
pleasure is widely defined as a component of happiness
but really happiness = pleasure
what is happiness?
it's hasn't been defined biologically so we use a definition for it based upon cultural norms
happiness is just a word meant to instill cultural values
Are these statements of fact or your opinion ? Happiness =pleasure but does pleasure= happiness..thats my opinion..As for biological do you mean neurons firing in my head?