9/11

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pagan
 
Reply Mon 13 Jul, 2009 04:29 am
@Caroline,
hi Caroline

.... yeh its a horrible thought. I can only say that it is fear and a sense of hopelessness that stops me from reacting. For example i could never convince my mother and family to believe it. They wouldnt even watch a video of WT7 collapsing let alone think about its implications. Just ordinary folk. And if ordinary folk dont show an interest now, then how will they react if it does become common knowledge? As Theaetetus says, i too believe those consequences may be even more horrific.

I suppose it comes down to our perceptions of humanity. Its a fact that a very small percentage of people who have access to philosophy forums would ever give the slightest thought to participating in one. About as rare as bungee jumping junkies. ........ And that fact is at the very heart of the dilemma. There is a decided lack of individual thinkers in humanity.
 
Caroline
 
Reply Mon 13 Jul, 2009 05:10 am
@astrotheological,
So you could say they murdered 3,000 people. What is the world coming to.
 
xris
 
Reply Mon 13 Jul, 2009 08:09 am
@Caroline,
what a load of rubbish, how many persons would have to be privy to this charade?hundreds yes hundreds of US government employees all ready to murder their fellow citizens for Bush and his cronnies.I cant honestly believe that so many intelligent people could even consider such a conspiracy.The towers are known to be of a completely different construction than any other building that has suffered such a fire.What bombs? ive never heard of bombs being found ,whats the source?
If we where going to have a conspiracy it would have been weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.How easy would it have been to plant chemical or biological weapons in iraq but strangely it was not even considered.Sorry folks but its another fanatasy that has grown and grown the more it is retold.
 
Theaetetus
 
Reply Mon 13 Jul, 2009 08:35 am
@astrotheological,
Well, one thing is know, the Bush Administration chose not to hear the warnings from the FBI. That is just as bad as actually carrying out the attacks. The Bush administration was warned that something was coming, and they ignored the warnings. Just watch the countless Richard Clarke interviews, and you will see what I am talking about.

The U.S. government has a history of killing millions of innocent people or supporting leaders that do (e.g. East Timor, Latin America, Iraq). What is the difference between that and allowing 3000 innocent Americans to die?
 
pagan
 
Reply Mon 13 Jul, 2009 08:48 am
@xris,
with all due respect xris i very specifically referred to WT7 not the twin towers. Moreover if a few terrorists can keep a secret from hundreds of officials, then why not another group?

With regard to governments killing hundreds, thousands and even millions of its citizens....... well there are many historical precedents. Many ordinary german citizens could not believe that the jews were being gassed. Many communists could not believe that Stalin was a tyrant and that decent people were being shipped off to labour camps where many died. Aleksandr Isayevich Solzhenitsyn wrote that there were many in the camps themselves that could not believe their beloved communist government to be corrupt. ...........They would rather believe an unfortunate error had been made.
 
Theaetetus
 
Reply Mon 13 Jul, 2009 08:50 am
@astrotheological,
Here is the footage of the OK City news coverage the day of the Oklahoma City bombing.

YouTube - news footage from Oklahoma bombing
 
xris
 
Reply Mon 13 Jul, 2009 08:54 am
@Theaetetus,
Theaetetus;76990 wrote:
Well, one thing is know, the Bush Administration chose not to hear the warnings from the FBI. That is just as bad as actually carrying out the attacks. The Bush administration was warned that something was coming, and they ignored the warnings. Just watch the countless Richard Clarke interviews, and you will see what I am talking about.

The U.S. government has a history of killing millions of innocent people or supporting leaders that do (e.g. East Timor, Latin America, Iraq). What is the difference between that and allowing 3000 innocent Americans to die?
Being inept is not the same as being a mass murderer.So the warnings where given, did Bush give instructions for them to be ignored and did they ask why?How many do you think where involved in this conspiracy? Yes they have been guilty of murder but that does not prove your conspiracy.Richard makes a good living out of this.:sarcastic:

---------- Post added 07-13-2009 at 10:00 AM ----------

pagan;76997 wrote:
with all due respect xris i very specifically referred to WT7 not the twin towers. Moreover if a few terrorists can keep a secret from hundreds of officials, then why not another group?

With regard to governments killing hundreds, thousands and even millions of its citizens....... well there are many historical precedents. Many ordinary german citizens could not believe that the jews were being gassed. Many communists could not believe that Stalin was a tyrant and that decent people were being shipped off to labour camps where many died. Aleksandr Isayevich Solzhenitsyn wrote that there were many in the camps themselves that could not believe their beloved communist government to be corrupt. ...........They would rather believe an unfortunate error had been made.
Once again, quoting history does not conclude that this was a conspiracy.So your argument is that Americans,hundreds of them can keep their mouths shut and kill thousands of their fellow citizens in cold blood?and never ever break rank for the horror or the enormity of their act?sorry its not credible.
 
Theaetetus
 
Reply Mon 13 Jul, 2009 09:02 am
@astrotheological,
I am not saying that I believe in the conspiracy, and I am not trying to prove anything. I am saying that the Bush administration played a role in the attacks by ignoring warnings. Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, and Paul Wolfowitz are three of the biggest scumbags to walk the planet--much less have as much power as they did. Even if they had absolutely nothing to do with it, they sure took advantage of the fear that the event caused, and seized as much power as they possibly could. Hell, they tried to justify the Iraq War by connecting Osama bin Laden to Saddam Hussein and they were know enemies of one another.
 
xris
 
Reply Mon 13 Jul, 2009 09:06 am
@Theaetetus,
Theaetetus;76999 wrote:
Here is the footage of the OK City news coverage the day of the Oklahoma City bombing.

YouTube - news footage from Oklahoma bombing
so whats your point the question at the end?where are the bombs, is that it?

---------- Post added 07-13-2009 at 10:07 AM ----------

Theaetetus;77008 wrote:
I am not saying that I believe in the conspiracy, and I am not trying to prove anything. I am saying that the Bush administration played a role in the attacks by ignoring warnings. Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, and Paul Wolfowitz are three of the biggest scumbags to walk the planet--much less have as much power as they did. Even if they had absolutely nothing to do with it, they sure took advantage of the fear that the event caused, and seized as much power as they possibly could. Hell, they tried to justify the Iraq War by connecting Osama bin Laden to Saddam Hussein and they were know enemies of one another.
then we agree with each other,thanks xris..
 
pagan
 
Reply Mon 13 Jul, 2009 10:06 am
@xris,
Quote:
Once again, quoting history does not conclude that this was a conspiracy.
i would never claim such a thing. But if i couldn't find examples then your case is much stronger.

Quote:
So your argument is that Americans,hundreds of them can keep their mouths shut and kill thousands of their fellow citizens in cold blood?and never ever break rank for the horror or the enormity of their act?sorry its not credible.
Maybe. But lets not forget the distinct possibility that people will do the most horrible things when told to by authority. Recently the famous pyschological experiment of the 70's (you do as you are told - horizon original, more recently witnessed by the ex tory MP micheal portillo in a programme on human violence) was re-enacted whereby people were asked to administer life threatening electric shocks to people simply for getting a test question incorrect. The results and video are very very frightening. I suggest from your belief system that you do not watch it. It is quite simply scary as hell what ordinary people will do just because someone in authority tells them to. (probably on you tube somewhere)

....... and if they can do that then i am sure they are capable of keeping their mouths shut. On top of that you have the distinct fear that breaking ranks isnt going to do you or your loved ones any favours.

Seriously though ..... i am not trying to be persuasive. I wish i didnt believe this stuff. I just wanted to see if anyone else here shared my concerns.
 
Caroline
 
Reply Mon 13 Jul, 2009 10:09 am
@astrotheological,
But even so pagan alot of people would've broke rank now and come forward to verify these claims and they haven't and not all people are willing to hurt people just because they are told to by an authority and that experiment is quite old, i wonder how many now would follow orders such as that.
 
pagan
 
Reply Mon 13 Jul, 2009 10:23 am
@Caroline,
well caroline maybe some will but it wouldn't be easy, especially if you feel isolated. There is the oath of secrecy, the job, the pension, the guilt ....... and the fear. There is also the not inconsiderable possibility that the media would ridicule and misrepresent.

But in all honesty. If someone did come forward and got through on to the internet and then the mainstream media ......how would you personally react to them? Are you sure that you wouldn't label them as the lowest form of scum alive, trying to make money and publicity on the backs of a terrible tragedy by telling cheap lies?
 
Caroline
 
Reply Mon 13 Jul, 2009 10:36 am
@astrotheological,
Anything is possible I guess. We could go on all night but what it comes down to is what you believe because there is no evidence to say that it did happen other than that the US government ignored warnings that they would be hit and that came out ages before the conspiracy theory, before anyone even dreamed of it and no one thought of the cospiracy theory back then and I thought it was becasuse the government was just plain stupid, yes I was shocked to hear that they had ignored it but but like I said that could be because they just simply didn't beleive it, too stupid or too arrogant, hell anything was possible with the Bush government. Like I said pagan we could go on all night. Anything is possible but you'll never really know. I think it's possible that the US could've let the warnings go unheeded in order to start a war but I could also belive they ignored it because of arrogance. It is a sinnister thought that they could have let 3,000 of their own burn to death for the sake of a war. Personally i am open to anything but I cannot believe something unless I have irrefutable proof so as yet I think it's possible and I have yet to have it proven to me in order to believe it. Smile
 
pagan
 
Reply Mon 13 Jul, 2009 10:49 am
@Caroline,
no probs caroline, and once we understand each other you are right there is no point going around in circles Smile
 
xris
 
Reply Mon 13 Jul, 2009 12:17 pm
@pagan,
pagan;77029 wrote:
i would never claim such a thing. But if i couldn't find examples then your case is much stronger.

Maybe. But lets not forget the distinct possibility that people will do the most horrible things when told to by authority. Recently the famous pyschological experiment of the 70's (you do as you are told - horizon original, more recently witnessed by the ex tory MP micheal portillo in a programme on human violence) was re-enacted whereby people were asked to administer life threatening electric shocks to people simply for getting a test question incorrect. The results and video are very very frightening. I suggest from your belief system that you do not watch it. It is quite simply scary as hell what ordinary people will do just because someone in authority tells them to. (probably on you tube somewhere)

....... and if they can do that then i am sure they are capable of keeping their mouths shut. On top of that you have the distinct fear that breaking ranks isnt going to do you or your loved ones any favours.

Seriously though ..... i am not trying to be persuasive. I wish i didnt believe this stuff. I just wanted to see if anyone else here shared my concerns.
Im fully aware of what men are capable of BUT the bloody premeditated killing of thousands of your fellow countrymen by hundreds of intelligence officers has the ring of fiction, a hollywood epic that makes you laugh at the incredibility of its script.One death bed confession, one secret told to a close lover, a state of depression, a high level of suicide.These men in grey are not monsters they enter the profession to save their citizens not kill them.Sorry Pagan it dont ring my bell.
 
pagan
 
Reply Mon 13 Jul, 2009 12:28 pm
@xris,
no problem xris, you clearly believe that such a conspiracy is unsound because of its patriotic monstrosity. Fair enough.
 
xris
 
Reply Mon 13 Jul, 2009 01:00 pm
@pagan,
pagan;77052 wrote:
no problem xris, you clearly believe that such a conspiracy is unsound because of its patriotic monstrosity. Fair enough.
Pagan its got nothing to do with service or patriotism its my faith in human nature.My understanding is that you could not gather so many convinced individuals that killing three thousand of your fellow countrymen would benefit your morals or your country.Judging history by the stupidity of the Bush administration and believing he could be so cleverly devious as to know their plan and convince the secret service it would benefit his administration if they allowed it to proceed.It beggars belief.
 
pagan
 
Reply Tue 14 Jul, 2009 05:58 am
@xris,
ok fair enough. i don't mean to misunderstand your position.
Quote:

My understanding is that you could not gather so many convinced individuals that killing three thousand of your fellow countrymen would benefit your morals or your country.
this is a very good point and one that i agree with. I don't think that could have happened either. But then again that is not the only possible mechanism. I dont know what happened, but the WT7 incident just really bothers me. I just cannot help but be convinced that that building is very obviously to me brought down by controlled explosives. I would feel a whole lot better if someone in authority just said "well yeh. of course we brought it down. We felt it best to do so under the circumstances (they explain) and take the risk of getting the explosives there in place (they explain how they did it) because of (they explain)." But instead we have a complete denial of such. Various other completely unbelievable explanations to me, that keep changing. WT7 was not investigated like the towers and the pentagon. The bbc report it fallen 20 minutes before it did and then say that some unfortunate error occurred such that they lost all the reporters video tapes for that day so no comment. I mean that just stinks. I dont get it. I want to get it.

I remind people here that if they can offer an explanation that could even bring some reasonable possibility of the official version or some reasonable explanation as to why the US government had to cover it up, then please share it with me. As i said before, i believed at the time that flight 93 was shot down, but not because of some government expending of innocent lives for political effect, but because it was quite possibly a very sad and awful decision to have to make in order to protect further lives. If that is what happened i wouldn't blame a government for not admitting it, not least because some poor pilot had to do it. That and the terrible anguish for the friends and relatives who would naturally cry out for a better solution. But nobody died when WT7 collapsed. Why cover it up?

I never even looked at the whole conspiracy 9/11 thing until last year because i just dont buy those things. It was a friend that said 'whats your problem. just take another look and if nothing bothers you then fine'. Personally i believe conspiracy theories to be a last desperate attempt by many to buy into grand narratives in a post modern world. Many people would rather believe that the devil was in control than think that nobody is in control. Conspiracy theories are indestructable grand narratives, because there is always the next deeper level if the one you are doubting the credibilty of looks a bit shakey or turns out to state as fact something that turns out to be daft.

But by the same token, i dont want such a belief on my part to go to the other extreme and never consider perspectives on history and institutions that is other than pure and decent. That is just extreme naivism.

I guess i was hoping to meet someone here who said "oh yeh the WT7 thing. Take a look at this dude or consider this and you will see that this is yet another media hype trick by nutty conspiracy theorists pumping out their crazy agendas"
 
Phredderikk
 
Reply Fri 17 Jul, 2009 01:16 pm
@astrotheological,
Unless the videos I've seen of the subsequent explosions in the towers during their near free-fall speed collapse were manufactured, I see little room for doubt that towers 1,2, and 7 were brought down by planned demolition.
 
Poseidon
 
Reply Fri 17 Jul, 2009 01:41 pm
@astrotheological,
http://www.africancrisis.org/images/Graph_Collapse_of_the_South_African_Rand.jpg

original link
AfricanCrisis

Can u see how the value of the SA rand spikes within weeks of 9/11?
It may be coincidence,
but they say that in police work there are no coincidences.

If I may speculate a bit:
is it possible that payout for whoever was responsible for 9/11
was mostly in SA rands?

Perhaps deliberately with the intention of destabilising the region?
It did not seem to matter that the paper trail was a mile of dollars wide.
And despite al sorts of investigation,
no viable reason was ever given for that spike at the end of 2001.

Just speculation,
of course.
 
 

 
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