leocon wrote:For one, there is nothing to create! There [is] already a "us vs them" enviroment!
Is there? I haven't noticed--at least not from where I stand.
You know, the thing that I hate about dialogue over the Internet is that you can't read emotion into what people are saying. If it helps, picture me telling you all this stuff over a casual beer together. Heck, if you weren't on another continent, I might just meet up with you for a beer (although, admittedly, your whole take on the adult-child sex thing has me pretty wierded out at the moment).
Dude, I know what you're feeling right now. You came on here, wanted to help us. Maybe you had some trouble expressing yourself well. Who knows? But the bottom line is that you keep sticking your foot in your mouth by defending the indefensible. In some ways, I don't blame you. It's what we were raised to do. I used to do it too. Now it's your turn.
Quote:And as far as proof....I would like to see you come up with a better reason for why he had such a sudden change of heart after he felt The Family!
That, Eman, is not a difficult question to answer. You see, I went through the exact same thing. Right around the time I left the Family, I thought Maria and Peter were nice people. I didn't agree with their beliefs, and I thought some of the things they did were a little whacko, but I just couldn't find it in me to say that they were abusers who needed to be held accountable for their actions.
So what changed me?
It's funny, I used to think that when people leave the Family, they just throw out the baby with the bathwater overnight and begin looking for someone, preferrably The Family, to blame for their failures.
Thus, my wife and I were determined that we were going to back up with fact, every single descision we made. We were going to lay aside all preconceived notions, study both sides meticulously, take a good hard look at the facts, and then draw open ended conclusions from there.
One of the most shocking things for me personally, was to read things like Lord Justice Ward's Judgment. As a Family member, I always thought that the Family had won that court case. Finding out first hand the hard facts about that case was difficult in a way. I had to admit that I was wrong. I had to admit that I had gullably swallowed a pre-digested and polished version of the BI case.
You know, in a way your right. One lone piece of evidence of the abuse in the Family may not hold water in a court of law. But when combined with the hours of corroborating oral testimony, the video footage, the photos, and--most damning of all--the Family's own writings; the horror of it all is overwhelming.
Another thing that shocked me, was reading letters from Peter and Maria written to both me and some of my friends. I watched in disbelief as Peter would write one thing in the personal letter and tell the Family the opposite. I couldn't believe he could be so two faced. It was infuriating. I'm kicking myself right now for deleting them.
But you know, even after the letters and all that research, I still couldn't bring myself to say that I had been abused.
You wanna know what the turning point was for me on that one? It was when I watched my daughters grow up knowing that I would rather die, than to have them experience some of the things that I experienced. It was the heart-wrenching, nauseous feeling that would come over me when I imagined my own children being subjected to the same beatings, Victor Camps, silence restrictions, begging on the streets, etc. that I was subjected to. And that's not even considering the sexual abuse. I can't even bring myself to imagine my little babies being subjected to my experiences with that.
It was then that I became fully aware of just how demented an adult must be, before they would do to a child what was done to me, and call it godly.
That was my personal turning point.
Since then, I have raised my voice and demanded accountability from the people who encouraged my abuse. Their silence hitherto has only compounded their guilt.
I cannot offer you proof of the cause of Ricky's change of heart. I can only offer you his own writings on the subject.
http://www.xfamily.org/index.php/Ricky_Rodriguez#Writings_by_Ricky_Rodriguez
If you want to believe that he was brainwashed into believing he had an abusive childhood, go right ahead. But, I thought the Family has always said that brainwashing is a myth (
http://www.thefamily.org/dossier/statements/brainwashing.htm), so how does that work?
It's almost comical. If I tell a current Family member that when I was a kid we had weekly "Kids Sharing Night" in which all the 5- to 9-year-olds in the Home had sex with each other in the same room, they say, "So? What's the big deal with that?" If I tell a non-Family person the same thing, in exactly the same way, they say, "Oh, my God! That is so sick. How could they have done that to you? Where were your parents?".
Now, why do you think there is such a difference in reactions? Could that have something to do with coming to see things in a different light once you've left The Family? For me, the answer is obvious.
Quote:See I believe that when you are in rebellion against God and His Will for your life, that that leaves you open to the dark side.....and then anything horrible is possible. Will you just shove this back at me as some fanatical belief?
No, Eman, I won't. You have a right to believe whatever you like. But let me ask you: How do you know that I am not doing God's highest will for me? How do you know that God is not using the ex-SGAs as his tool to hold people like Maria and Peter accountable for their actions? How do you know that Jesus wasn't referring to people like Maria and Peter when he said of people who offend the little ones "it were better that a millstone be hung about their neck and they be cast into the sea" (a very violent statement, if you ask me).
Now, mind you, I'm no Christian (and it's fine if you want to believe that I'm rebelling against God. That's what you grew up with and that's what you're comfortable believing, so you do that) I'm just telling you this to get you to think about the flip-side for a second. I mean, how are you going to know your faith is pure gold if you never put it in the fire of doubts?
The dark side? Anything horrible is possible? Have you been watching too much of Star Wars again?
Quote:And you have proof of this, or do you just believe what everyone else tells you?
<sarcasm>Yes, I am still a good little Family boy who believes everything he is told.</sarcasm> I mean, COME ON? How much proof does it take to know that a guy is shunning the entire ex-member community because he wants to be left alone? How much proof does it take to know that you don't get much contact with ex-members on a fishing boat? How much proof does it take to know that there aren't a whole lot of ex-members in Tacoma?
Doesn't it sound suspicious to you that WS keeps saying "a small group of bitter ex-members influenced him" and yet they haven't named names? If they really had someone to blame for this, wouldn't their names be all over a Family "against" prayerlist by now? You'd think the Lord would at least be kind enough to give them
that much in prophecy.
leocon wrote:Yes I did watch it! And yes its a tragic thought that he would want to resort to violence at the age of 11yrs. (If that is indeed the truth-Yes I might even be saying that he was capable of lying.....as are we all!)
Eman, people lie when it benefits them. No one lies to hurt themselves. No one would murder another human being for something they know is a lie.
Tell me. How do you think it would benefit someone to go public and say, "I was sexually abused"?
Besides, there's a whole GN about the battle with violent and suicidal thoughts that Ricky had as a child. But you would only have been about 3 or 4 years old back then, so what would you remember?
Quote:And this is why I do not like answering your questions, because no matter what I say you will always find a way to discriminate and undermine what I say! It does not matter at all what I say...... unless I was to come and join you in your bloody crusade!
What you did right there, Eman, is what is known as projecting yourself onto other people. You imagine that I am trying to undermine you because that is what you would do if the roles were reversed. You think I am in a "bloody crusade" because that is the darkest side of yourself that you can imagine and you attribute it to me.
I can honestly tell you that neither of your fears are founded. Whether you believe that or not is up to you, and, frankly, none of my concern.
leocon wrote:You twist and contort my words! I said "According to the book there is only proof that any sexual interaction he was engaged in was enjoyed by him"! Tell me otherwise and then prove it!
I totally agree with you. That's what it said in the book. I do not question it.
Now answer me this: Since when is the onus for making responsible, sensible and balanced choices the responsibility of a 2-year-old? Since when does a toddler know what is best for him?
Quote:Just because I choose to not do something does not make it wrong for anyone else to do it! That is seriously silly logic!
Eman,
a crime is a crime is a crime. Period. Choice has nothing to do with it.
What I find fantastic, is that you cannot hear your own insanity when you say that it is no crime for an adult to suck on a child's penis.
leocon wrote:Kids are always, and I mean young kids, playing doctor and fondling one another while bathing etc. I have even seen little 1yr olds sitting on the potty and fondling themselves (That was in a secular Kindergarden...mind you)
True. But, again, what has that got to do with it? In which of the above scenarios was an adult doing the fondling and playing? None.
Of course it's perfectly normal for a child to discover the human body
on their own. What is criminal, is when an adult touches and fondles them with the intent of sexual stimulation. Why is this such a difficult concept for you to grasp? It's something that is embedded in every human's conscience.
leocon wrote:Times were very different back then and since things have changed the world over and so has The Family!
And I'm sure you can back this up with plenty of secular newspaper articles and educational books from the 70s and 80s in which mothers were shown to be doing this stuff to their own children, right? Good luck with that one, man.
leocon wrote:[...] as far as his refusal to "answer any questions about sex or his sexual history or his feelings about the matter", what do you think was the reason for that?
Imagine your mother took photos of her best friends lying naked in a bed with you as a toddler, sucking you off and simulating sexual positions and published those in a book of which a thousand copies were made. Some-teen years later, you are asked by a psychologist about that. What would you say, Eman?
What would you say?
