BE - those are two separate paragraphs you are mixing together. The first is conventional wisdom or accepted way of thinking, it's not law. The second is about the law and a whole other subject for another time and another place.

I also am leaning towards abortion as necessary in certain circumstances and early enough in the pregnancy before the egg starts developing. I thought that was pretty clear from what I wrote. I have never recommended abortion to anyone except to my daughter and I regret it now, especially after I saw her reaction. I have always recommended adoption as a better alternative. I wonder what Planned Parenthood recommends.

What is happening now is a push to get young children to be able to have abortions without parental approval. That is horrendous, IMO. The planned parenthood crowd wants to act as judge, jury and parent and take away parental rights. How does one decide who should be alive and who should not? I think we have gotten outselves into some pretty deep and murky waters. Now we have a new procedure being developed where one can pick the sex of their child. Can you imagine the implications of this? I just keep seeing "Brave New World" all over the place.

Don't misrepresent me. I personally don't promote Abortion and I think it's a horrible decision for any woman to be forced to make. I just want the government and Christians and their opinions to stay the f*ck out of peoples lives and decisions entirely.

And by the way, Planned Parenthood does not encourage women to get abortions either (most people go there because of alien growths on or discomfort in their genitalia). They promote and help individuals in the adoption process almost as much as they support those who prefer an alternative route. Although they are more likely to encourage abstinence while doing what they can to educate youths and make contraception more easily available. This is why I support them financially.

Furthermore, I won't argue any opinion of yours as I have never been a woman or a mother so I cannot speak educatedly on the subject. In the event (knocking on wood until my knuckles bleed) I were to ever impregnate a girl, which is rather unlikely because I am responsible enough to take whatever neccessary precautions (condoms, frequent masturbation, bike riding, pot smoking and smashing my testicles with a mallet, etc..), I would stand by her in whatever decision she would made and be the best damn father I could be.

Thanks, Jack - that was wonderfully said and if more people had attitudes like yours, we'd have a lot less problems.

I'm glad to hear that about planned parenthood. What I have seen has given me a different impression, like their spending tons of money to defeat our Calif. bill to have underage girls required to tell their parents before they have an abortion. As a parent, that really ticks me off. You want people to stay out of your life? I'd like Planned parenthood to not tell me how to run my family - I feel the same way. Oh well, life is just not fair, it seems. So much for this touchy subject.

http://www.firstplumbline.net/firstplumblinechurch/html/hardtruth.wmv

Check out the above--but only if you have a strong stomach.

Oh my, I just watched some of the clip - until my connection timed out. But that was shocking enough to make me never, ever want to encourage anyone to have an abortion. And it is true, if they were doing it in the first few weeks, that is one thing, but waiting until babies are literally formed is something else entirely. And sicne that's when most abortions occur, something is terribly wrong. It's horrible.

It all depends on who's perspective your reading and listen to. Several years I was introduced to Planned Parenthood out of necessity and have since supported them based on the opinions I've formed by visiting them and seeing the educational media they hand out to teenagers. About the bill to allow underage abortions, wouldn't you prefer your daughter risked your wrath and had a legal, governed and safe abortion over the dramatically more horrible option of illegal and much more dangerous options which DO happen. It is my understanding that you are a good parent but not everyone is like you. That is why I believe children need their rights.

As far as that video goes, it did not affect me in anyway. But neither did The Family's material, nor does the news or the Iraqi decapitation videos. I'm propaganda retardant. A couple of emotional and stirring words or images do not interfere with my logic.

Here in UK before a child can undergo any form of medical treatment or surgical proceedure the parent (or legal guardian) must give written permission. Abortion is a very serious surgical proceedure, yet for some reason, parents do not have to be consulted! This is totally wrong.

Also, if an underage girl is made pregnant, the one who impregnated her should be prosecuted as it is a criminal offence to be having underage sexual relations with minors!

The fact that people responsible for the death of an unborn child, from an auto accident or foul play for example, can be prosecuted as murderers, but under different circumstances an unborn child can be aborted with impunity, is bizarre logic. A person either is, or isn't. Whether they are unwanted, inconvenient or obstacles in our way, those are pitiful reasons to end a life. Ultimately, from whatever position one chooses to see abortion, it is a tragedy nonetheless, one where everyone loses. With all our smarts, you'd think we could get this one figured out with a lot less bloodshed. We can be such civilized beasts, ... what an oxymoron.

Jack wrote:



As we're seeing, abortion is an enormously complex topic. I've worked with distressed adolescents and the issue of children's rights, and I'd be shocked to see a fundamental change in basic assumptions about this in my lifetime. For better or worse, U.S. law assumes that children are the property of their parents. The state only steps in when that "property" is deemed at risk of becoming a public burden, i.e., damaged or dependent goods for whose maintenance the taxpayers are liable.

In some U.S. states, the potential burden to taxpayers from unwanted pregnancies is managed by allowing individual adolescent girls the option of an abortion without parental consent. In U.S. states where parental consent is required, quite a lot of public resources go into supporting the family & adolescent through a decision-making process. This approach "fixes" the entire family at taxpayers' expense. Families that go through the decision process together should become stronger & healthier as a result (that's the theory, at least.)

Your point about illegal, backstreet abortions is well taken, however. I was a teenager in the 60s, and I remember quite well when a friend was mutilated by a coathanger. Abortions have always been practiced and are an historical fact of human existence in every culture. The questions are: Should abortions be legal and relatively safe in terms of sterile procedure, should they be legal, but fairly difficult to obtain, or should they be altogether illegal?

I lean toward legal, but fairly difficult to obtain. I am offended by the sheer weight of abortion statistics. It's obvious that abortion on demand--where it's legal and easily obtained--is being practiced in place of birth control. Sorry, but human lives are at stake, and abortion for the sake of convenience is ludicrous. Interestingly enough, the so-called sexually liberal countries like Sweden & Norway don't have anywhere near the adolescent pregnancy and abortion rates as the U.S. and G.B. That's because the Nordic countries view sexual activity as a health issue, not a moral one, and strongly promote birth control.

Dear Jack - I hope I don't offend you by the things that I say. I talk to you as I would my own son. I don't mean to do any harm or cause any further pain. I know how much you've all suffered. So I hope you understand that if I don't agree with you, it's just a matter of opinion. I don't think any less of you.

I certainly understand that there are tortured children in this world that should be protected. I believe that we don't protect them enough. Still, I worry because of some bad apples in parenting, the average, caring parent will have their parental rights taken away. I just can't get behind that. If we carry that logic through, down the road it could lead to so much more troubles. Even worse than the initial problem that it is supposedly alleviating.

It's a delimma for sure, and there is lots to say on this subect, but time is pressing and I can't really address like I would like to.

An interesting take on the issue of abortion:
http://www.feministsforlife.org/

I heartily agree!


I haven't been offended at anything anyone has said here with the notable exception of Fisherman's statement suggesting that I ever joined TF or wished to serve "The Lord."

I'm extremely open minded. How can we learn if we're so hard set on our current way of thinking? I'm also a big fan of fairness. So as long as I'm dishing out strong opinions laced with brutal honesty, I can take it. Just expect an counter-argument should I disagree.

Jack - the more I talk with you, the more impressed I am and the more I admire you!

Soooo Disappointed!!
COME ON!!!
I started this as a poetry board - not an abortion thread!!! If you want your abortion pros and cons listed, make another thread please. This thread is for the P.O.E.T.R.Y. inclined!! By the way, ROCK ON CHOICE!!! Anyway, like the old cliche, You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

Re: Soooo Disappointed!!


Hey - it's ok with me if the coordinators want to move the discussion on abortion to a new thread. Or delete it (that's fine with me too). I apologize for getting involved and messing up the thread.

Re: Soooo Disappointed!!


Aw! Now i feel really bad. Didn't intend to be mean. How about we compromise and discuss abortion here in poetry heh.

Re: Soooo Disappointed!!


Hey, no problem. Poetry about abortion would be interesting indeed.

From the family to the present
Progress of the Senses by Heather Ricciardi (second gen.)

A mother's selfish child, quite determined
and curious to see something different.
In my world: European furniture and short refrigerators,
and a new baby, suckling my breasts.
An egg in each hand, I taunt my mama
while standing in the doorway.
When she catches me, breathlessly, frustrated,
I crush my fingers through the eggshells
and burst their contents into my tiny palms.
I reduce her too. She is dissolving, tear at a time.
I got her! She is mine. Postulate...nothing!
It is and is so. Let my youth not betray me,
I know what I know.

A father's constant reminder, consciously rejected at five, and
fighting to hear something different.
In my world: adoption processes and feigned ignorance to hard questions, and a man named "Jim" who I am supposed to call "daddy".
An eye in every direction, I can read
street signs, and Bibles, and the body language of adults.
Lawyers smile and walk by with their ties pointing loudly
at their cocks.
I am a lascicious little girl being given a proper name.
I know who I am and from whence I came. Though I am not sure just where I'll go,
In the U.S. or otherwise, I know what I know.


A preacher's scorn, just eleven and horny.
Masturbating in the church pew to feel something different.
In my world: prayer services, and organized communion, and
a beautiful girl who says that she loves me.
A hymnal in hand, I can sing.
I am moved by the cathedral effect of the music,
as the waves of sound flow through my body.
Orgasm.
The pastor does not see how naughty his daughter can be,
but we run and hide in the basement below, and
what I find in her is here in me.
This is how I know what I know.


A teacher's regarded potential, constantly being molded,
searching for something to taste different.
In my world: friends are acquaintances and enemies, and
strangers are more inclined to play good Samaritan.
The dean of students eavesdrops on my prayers and interrupts
to laugh and to say that God does not hear my supplications.
I ask him if heaven would bend an ear to hear his cries as my fists
found their marks on his face.
My expulsion is a cough to bring relief. The disappointment of my folks
is easily ignored. Seeds of emancipation begin to grow.
Though most would agree that violence is not the answer,
I know what I know.


A husband's view of the future, certainly jaded,
hoping to smell the scent of success or something different.
In my world: breastfeeding, and diaper changing, and
looking into the eyes of a newborn son for an answer.
Tabla rasa in those eyes, I see. You have not judgement now for me.
I watch as a baby of only three days stares silently into the space.
He is not hungry or thirsty or cold, yet his discontent is as obvious as my own.
He is wondering.
I am his protector, his food, and his clothing. I am now a mother.
He got me! I am his. Hypothesize...nothing! In the ebb and the flow
of tears, and years, and milk; I know what I know.

Re: From the family to the present


Great poem and I love the way it flows. The above is my favorite line.

I see that the mutual appreciation society is out in force again!
I have never come across so many teachers’ pets. apple polishers and butt lickers in all my life.


Love Max