The two types of goals

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manored
 
Reply Mon 26 Oct, 2009 05:55 pm
Initial note: Im not sure if this is the right forum, hope yes =)

Lately I have been thinking about what are the fundamental drives of people, and lately I also read about taoism (the way of thinking, not the religion), and it made an incredible amount of sense, but, yet, I did not feel even the least bit of will of trying it. That made me imagine that there are two types of goals:

*Chaos: Accomplish an objective in this world, have fun

*Order: Gain greater understanding and knowledge of the universe.

People seem to be at randow points between these, moving around and never being absolutely either.

I think then people think this life is good, they try to enjoy it. Then they think it is not, they try to transcend it.

Using myself as an example: Then I read about taoism, it did seem like it would be a good, enlightening idea to just try to slow down until all desires were eliminated and this world itself vanished into nothingness, and remain in that path forever. But that sounds soooo boring =)

P.s: I know naming it chaos and order make it sound kinda ridiculous, but thats how its impressed into my mind. I guess I have been watching too much anime lately =)

(Moderator edit: thread moved to more appropriate forum.jgw)
 
Arjuna
 
Reply Mon 26 Oct, 2009 07:20 pm
@manored,
manored;99952 wrote:
Lately I have been thinking about what are the fundamental drives of people, and lately I also read about taoism (the way of thinking, not the religion), and it made an incredible amount of sense, but, yet, I did not feel even the least bit of will of trying it. That made me imagine that there are two types of goals:

*Chaos: Accomplish an objective in this world, have fun

*Order: Gain greater understanding and knowledge of the universe.

People seem to be at randow points between these, moving around and never being absolutely either.

I think then people think this life is good, they try to enjoy it. Then they think it is not, they try to transcend it.

Using myself as an example: Then I read about taoism, it did seem like it would be a good, enlightening idea to just try to slow down until all desires were eliminated and this world itself vanished into nothingness, and remain in that path forever. But that sounds soooo boring =)

P.s: I know naming it chaos and order make it sound kinda ridiculous, but thats how its impressed into my mind. I guess I have been watching too much anime lately =)
Thanks! I don't know if it's Existentialism or not either. I imagine that any time the focus goes to that "quality of being which comes to rest in the sanctuary of the form" as Kierkegaard put it.. as opposed to dissecting the frog... it's existential... if not Existentialism.

I've only read the Tao Te Ching. I didn't really see any goal there. I saw it as referring to an unraveling process that can happen. "Who can clear muddy water? Stillness will. Who can obtain rest? Let motion continue equably, and it will be peace itself." The pendulum swings. Let it swing. There's a path in front of you: put foot to path. To forebear when the will says go... that is to resist. My favorite Buddhist poem:

See, but act
Grow, but stand firm
Love, if only to grieve
And lose nothing

And I don't know about anime, but Chaos and Order are two spheres on the Tree of Life.
 
manored
 
Reply Tue 27 Oct, 2009 12:01 pm
@Arjuna,
Arjuna;99973 wrote:

I've only read the Tao Te Ching. I didn't really see any goal there. I saw it as referring to an unraveling process that can happen. "Who can clear muddy water? Stillness will. Who can obtain rest? Let motion continue equably, and it will be peace itself." The pendulum swings. Let it swing. There's a path in front of you: put foot to path. To forebear when the will says go... that is to resist. My favorite Buddhist poem:
The goal seens to be to have no goal, to achieve ultimate peace. What sounds boring for me =)

Arjuna;99973 wrote:

See, but act
Grow, but stand firm
Love, if only to grieve
And lose nothing
What I knew about buddhism was that it was also aimed at ceasing to desire things in order to achieve enlightnment. I am wrong?

Arjuna;99973 wrote:

And I don't know about anime, but Chaos and Order are two spheres on the Tree of Life.
Wich one? There seens to be a thousand such trees out in the internet =)

Anime tends to have magic wich tends to be based around "fundamental elements" such as wind, water, earth, etc. But sometimes more abstract elements such as order and chaos are also included.
 
Arjuna
 
Reply Tue 27 Oct, 2009 01:03 pm
@manored,
manored;100136 wrote:
The goal seens to be to have no goal, to achieve ultimate peace. What sounds boring for me =)
You seem to have a greek soul: life is adventure... peace waits for you in the grave.
manored;100136 wrote:

What I knew about buddhism was that it was also aimed at ceasing to desire things in order to achieve enlightnment. I am wrong?
I don't know. All I know about it is history and poetry. And giant statues of cross-legged men who seem to be asleep. Delightful!
manored;100136 wrote:

Wich one? There seens to be a thousand such trees out in the internet =)

Anime tends to have magic wich tends to be based around "fundamental elements" such as wind, water, earth, etc. But sometimes more abstract elements such as order and chaos are also included.
The traditional Chinese perspective has five elements, each related to a part of the cosmic cycle. Old western traditions have four: fire, water, air, and earth. The tree of life, aside from being mentioned in Genesis, is part of Jewish mysticism called Kabbalism. Some time around the renaissance, astrology and Kabbalism entered into western thought along with the influx of greek speakers from the area where the Ottomans took over. This event created an alteration in western thought. Europeans experienced an expansion of their horizons in time and space. In time, by introduction of greek history. In space, by trying to find sea passages around the Ottomans blockage of trade routes to India. Europeans sort of suddenly grew up into adulthood. This event permeated European symbolism, and gave rise to Neoplatonism. Cool stuff.

As the story goes on, Germany has always had a quasi-christian mysticism. Kabbalistic symbolism was here more cemented into what is called the Western Esoteric tradition. It has the flavor of something ancient that has recently been revealed, just like when greek science and philosophy came in during the renaissance. When the Germans threw off the Catholic church, it was accompanied by pointed apoctolypticism. When Napolean came through, people throughout Europe thought a great change was coming into human life and Napolean was its champion. They were wrong about Napolean, but the idea of the great change continued to shape expectations. And the freemasons were part of this, inheritors of the Western Esoteric Tradition, now digested into special "knowledge" that only really evolved people get to have.

Enter the big Kahuna of the progression: the Golden Dawn. This was a British group who focused a lot on the tarot. Their work was blotted out by violent events of the 20th century, only to appear again in used book stores. The only reason I would say all this is to explain my viewpoint. The flavor of age the thing has is dramatic flare. What a person actually encounters in it is not from the past, it's from deep inside... in the present.
Books about it abound. According to tradition you should go stand in front of them and wait for one to call. If you have to call: The Middle Pillar, by Israel Regardie would be a can't miss. Now I have to check out more anime. Any suggestions?
 
TickTockMan
 
Reply Tue 27 Oct, 2009 03:50 pm
@Arjuna,
Arjuna;100159 wrote:
Now I have to check out more anime. Any suggestions?


One of the most interesting anime films I have seen is "Ghost in the Shell 2 - Innocence"

The First Ghost in the Shell is great also, but the second one really speaks to me for some reason . . .

Ghost in the Shell: Innocence
YouTube - Ghost in the Shell - Innocence Trailer
 
manored
 
Reply Wed 28 Oct, 2009 12:59 pm
@Arjuna,
Arjuna;100159 wrote:
You seem to have a greek soul: life is adventure... peace waits for you in the grave.
I dont think there is peace even in the grave, I think conscient idleness is the only peace we can have.

Arjuna;100159 wrote:

I don't know. All I know about it is history and poetry. And giant statues of cross-legged men who seem to be asleep. Delightful!
I only know the giant statues, mostly =)

Arjuna;100159 wrote:

The traditional Chinese perspective has five elements, each related to a part of the cosmic cycle. Old western traditions have four: fire, water, air, and earth. The tree of life, aside from being mentioned in Genesis, is part of Jewish mysticism called Kabbalism. Some time around the renaissance, astrology and Kabbalism entered into western thought along with the influx of greek speakers from the area where the Ottomans took over. This event created an alteration in western thought. Europeans experienced an expansion of their horizons in time and space. In time, by introduction of greek history. In space, by trying to find sea passages around the Ottomans blockage of trade routes to India. Europeans sort of suddenly grew up into adulthood. This event permeated European symbolism, and gave rise to Neoplatonism. Cool stuff.

As the story goes on, Germany has always had a quasi-christian mysticism. Kabbalistic symbolism was here more cemented into what is called the Western Esoteric tradition. It has the flavor of something ancient that has recently been revealed, just like when greek science and philosophy came in during the renaissance. When the Germans threw off the Catholic church, it was accompanied by pointed apoctolypticism. When Napolean came through, people throughout Europe thought a great change was coming into human life and Napolean was its champion. They were wrong about Napolean, but the idea of the great change continued to shape expectations. And the freemasons were part of this, inheritors of the Western Esoteric Tradition, now digested into special "knowledge" that only really evolved people get to have.

Enter the big Kahuna of the progression: the Golden Dawn. This was a British group who focused a lot on the tarot. Their work was blotted out by violent events of the 20th century, only to appear again in used book stores. The only reason I would say all this is to explain my viewpoint. The flavor of age the thing has is dramatic flare. What a person actually encounters in it is not from the past, it's from deep inside... in the present.
Books about it abound. According to tradition you should go stand in front of them and wait for one to call. If you have to call: The Middle Pillar, by Israel Regardie would be a can't miss.
Thanks for the explanation, but, if you can, could you link me to a represantion of the tree you were refering to? I wouldnt know how to find it, probally.

Arjuna;100159 wrote:

Now I have to check out more anime. Any suggestions?
Depends of your tastes, but I recommend Naruto. It has some interesting moral conflicts to it (not many, but some) and the fights and ninja strategizing are cool and sense-making.
 
Arjuna
 
Reply Wed 28 Oct, 2009 02:02 pm
@manored,
manored;100352 wrote:
Thanks for the explanation, but, if you can, could you link me to a represantion of the tree you were refering to? I wouldnt know how to find it, probally.
Kabbalistic Tree of Life

This is the only one I could find with the traditional english translations.
If you notice, there are three columns. The outer columns represent all opposites. The middle column represents union. The ones that represent chaos and order are 4 and 5. 4 is Mercy: it's associated with Jupiter. It means a broadcasted theme, like looking at the whole as being organized and governed, like we look at the human body as an orderly organism governed by the neuro-endrocrine system. 5 is Severity, sometimes called Fear. It's associated with Mars. It means individuality. It means being off-balance. A chaotic impulse.

The relationship between them depends on which direction you're going.

If you go from Mercy to Severity:

It means that in the midst of cool order, in which all the parts serenely comply with the governor, there comes one who will not be anybody's puppet. From the point of view of everyone else, he is Chaos. He brings heat. He may choose to be a saint, he may choose to be a sinner. We don't know. He's off balance. He's the beginning of true individual identity. A point of intensity (severity) in a blanket of peace.

If you go from Severity back toward Mercy:

It means that in the midst of chaos, in which nothing that's built ever lasts for long, in cold devastation, there comes a longing. The longing is for stability, cleanliness, warmth, for the order in which Mercy may exist. This allows individual identities to soften and come together. I'm sure you would find other ways to look at it, if you looked into it. In the end, it's what the symbol means to you personally anyway.

manored;100352 wrote:
Depends of your tastes, but I recommend Naruto. It has some interesting moral conflicts to it (not many, but some) and the fights and ninja strategizing are cool and sense-making.
Thanks! I like the Sandman comics. Does that relate in any way?
 
manored
 
Reply Thu 29 Oct, 2009 10:38 am
@Arjuna,
Arjuna;100377 wrote:

Thanks! I like the Sandman comics. Does that relate in any way?


Thanks for the explanation. =)

Again there seens to be more than one comic called "sandman", but, anyway, I never read any comic called that way, so wouldnt be able to tell you.
 
Icon
 
Reply Mon 2 Nov, 2009 08:52 am
@manored,
This is an interesting conversation.

I have to wonder though, why the interest in Taoism if peace is not your ultimate goal?
 
Arjuna
 
Reply Mon 2 Nov, 2009 09:36 am
@Icon,
Icon;101253 wrote:
This is an interesting conversation.

I have to wonder though, why the interest in Taoism if peace is not your ultimate goal?
It would appear that peace is the ultimate goal of any adventure. We quest for satisfaction. Satisfaction ends the quest. Out of peace comes the desire for adventure.

A Taoist might be able to answer the question better. I only know of Taoism because my brother claims it as his perspective. Knowing that I've read a lot of Aleister Crowley's writings, my brother gave me a copy of the Tao Te Ching made by Crowley. Crowley believed he understood how eastern and western thought converge. Course it's been a long time since the two perspectives were distinct. We've been influencing each other for centuries.
 
manored
 
Reply Mon 2 Nov, 2009 12:08 pm
@Icon,
Icon;101253 wrote:
This is an interesting conversation.

I have to wonder though, why the interest in Taoism if peace is not your ultimate goal?
Because it does seem like the ultimate path if peace is what you want.

Arjuna;101260 wrote:
It would appear that peace is the ultimate goal of any adventure. We quest for satisfaction. Satisfaction ends the quest. Out of peace comes the desire for adventure.
well said =)

Maybe taoism seens a boring option only because the world hasnt battered me enough yet.
 
Arjuna
 
Reply Mon 2 Nov, 2009 01:10 pm
@manored,
manored;101296 wrote:
Maybe taoism seens a boring option only because the world hasnt battered me enough yet.
The journey you take, you take for all of us. Take peace with you like a special coin. Smile
 
Bhaktajan
 
Reply Mon 2 Nov, 2009 01:41 pm
@manored,
there are two types of goals:

*Chaos: Accomplish an objective in this world, have fun

*Order: Gain greater understanding and knowledge of the universe.
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
This is 'absolutely' correct!

The Bhagavad-gita defines that the two sides of the Civil war that begins the very morning that the Gita's dialogue transpires is a battle resulting from the competion between these two forces, the sura & the asuras (the devotees of the Sun, Gods, divinity, the upholders of the Rod of Chasticement, etc vs. the meglomaniacs, self-declared Lord of all surveyed, the subjugators of all denizens).

This principle of chaos vs order is a divine play. Just as it is the nature of mechanical engineering too.
 
manored
 
Reply Tue 3 Nov, 2009 12:28 pm
@Arjuna,
Arjuna;101310 wrote:
The journey you take, you take for all of us. Take peace with you like a special coin. Smile
Dont worry, my idea of fun isnt to advance against your house driving a war tank =)

Thats what war games exist for! =)

Bhaktajan;101316 wrote:
there are two types of goals:

*Chaos: Accomplish an objective in this world, have fun

*Order: Gain greater understanding and knowledge of the universe.
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
This is 'absolutely' correct!

The Bhagavad-gita defines that the two sides of the Civil war that begins the very morning that the Gita's dialogue transpires is a battle resulting from the competion between these two forces, the sura & the asuras (the devotees of the Sun, Gods, divinity, the upholders of the Rod of Chasticement, etc vs. the meglomaniacs, self-declared Lord of all surveyed, the subjugators of all denizens).

This principle of chaos vs order is a divine play. Just as it is the nature of mechanical engineering too.
I dont know anything about indian culture, but its nice to reach a conclusion someone already reached before =)
 
Subjectivity9
 
Reply Tue 3 Nov, 2009 01:50 pm
@manored,
manored,

Taoism speaks on many levels at one time. It speaks about your outer life among other people and things, and it speaks about you inner life, in solitude, which is far more intimate and personal.

I believe that it tries to teach us how to reconcile our two lives going on simultaneously.

Sometime people think that peace means that our outer life will stop doing anything or wanting anything. But, if you study yourself very carefully and closely you will come to find out that is impossible.

It is your inner life that remains serene and unmoving at some very deep level, like the eye of a hurricane, and again deep investigation will finally show you this as well.

The mind is not meant to do nothing. That would indeed be boring, if not dead altogether. But your deepest, inner self does not do anything, or change in any way, it is constantly what it is, and totally satisfied as ‘Being’ that.

I think one of the most beautiful things in Taoism is that, it teaches us how to live with who we are, and not to fight with it.

S9
 
manored
 
Reply Sat 7 Nov, 2009 09:08 am
@Subjectivity9,
Subjectivity9;101578 wrote:
manored,

Taoism speaks on many levels at one time. It speaks about your outer life among other people and things, and it speaks about you inner life, in solitude, which is far more intimate and personal.

I believe that it tries to teach us how to reconcile our two lives going on simultaneously.

Sometime people think that peace means that our outer life will stop doing anything or wanting anything. But, if you study yourself very carefully and closely you will come to find out that is impossible.

It is your inner life that remains serene and unmoving at some very deep level, like the eye of a hurricane, and again deep investigation will finally show you this as well.

The mind is not meant to do nothing. That would indeed be boring, if not dead altogether. But your deepest, inner self does not do anything, or change in any way, it is constantly what it is, and totally satisfied as 'Being' that.

I think one of the most beautiful things in Taoism is that, it teaches us how to live with who we are, and not to fight with it.

S9
So, you mean taoism is not about not doing nor desiring anything, but realizing that you dont need to do or desire anything?
 
Subjectivity9
 
Reply Sat 7 Nov, 2009 07:04 pm
@manored,
manored,

Practically speaking, I believe that Taoism is all about seeing clearly what exactly is going on at any given moment, which includes knowing your self, and not fighting with it. This is the secret to being comfortable in your skin.

We suffer when we always want everything to be different than it is.

This does not mean that nothing bad will happen to you. You like anyone will get sick, or lose someone to death, etc. But if you do not fight with each of these events, when they take place, life will go a whole lot easier for you. That is called going with the flow.

There is also a more metaphysical side to the Tao.

S9
 
IntoTheLight
 
Reply Sun 22 Nov, 2009 10:13 pm
@Subjectivity9,
There are three types of people:

Those who can count and those who can't.
 
manored
 
Reply Mon 23 Nov, 2009 08:51 am
@IntoTheLight,
IntoTheLight;105279 wrote:
There are three types of people:

Those who can count and those who can't.
That is either fantastically off-topic or fantastically deep =)
 
Pepijn Sweep
 
Reply Thu 25 Mar, 2010 01:40 pm
@manored,
manored;105381 wrote:
That is either fantastically off-topic or fantastically deep =)

[CENTER]:bigsmile:
So there are humans that count, and humans who don't...
[/CENTER]
 
 

 
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