Lately I have been thinking about what are the fundamental drives of people, and lately I also read about taoism (the way of thinking, not the religion), and it made an incredible amount of sense, but, yet, I did not feel even the least bit of will of trying it. That made me imagine that there are two types of goals:

*Chaos: Accomplish an objective in this world, have fun

*Order: Gain greater understanding and knowledge of the universe.

People seem to be at randow points between these, moving around and never being absolutely either.

I think then people think this life is good, they try to enjoy it. Then they think it is not, they try to transcend it.

Using myself as an example: Then I read about taoism, it did seem like it would be a good, enlightening idea to just try to slow down until all desires were eliminated and this world itself vanished into nothingness, and remain in that path forever. But that sounds soooo boring =)

P.s: I know naming it chaos and order make it sound kinda ridiculous, but thats how its impressed into my mind. I guess I have been watching too much anime lately =)

I've only read the Tao Te Ching. I didn't really see any goal there. I saw it as referring to an unraveling process that can happen. "Who can clear muddy water? Stillness will. Who can obtain rest? Let motion continue equably, and it will be peace itself." The pendulum swings. Let it swing. There's a path in front of you: put foot to path. To forebear when the will says go... that is to resist. My favorite Buddhist poem:

See, but act
Grow, but stand firm
Love, if only to grieve
And lose nothing

And I don't know about anime, but Chaos and Order are two spheres on the Tree of Life.

The goal seens to be to have no goal, to achieve ultimate peace. What sounds boring for me =)

What I knew about buddhism was that it was also aimed at ceasing to desire things in order to achieve enlightnment. I am wrong?

Wich one? There seens to be a thousand such trees out in the internet =)

Anime tends to have magic wich tends to be based around "fundamental elements" such as wind, water, earth, etc. But sometimes more abstract elements such as order and chaos are also included.

Now I have to check out more anime. Any suggestions?

You seem to have a greek soul: life is adventure... peace waits for you in the grave.

I don't know. All I know about it is history and poetry. And giant statues of cross-legged men who seem to be asleep. Delightful!

The traditional Chinese perspective has five elements, each related to a part of the cosmic cycle. Old western traditions have four: fire, water, air, and earth. The tree of life, aside from being mentioned in Genesis, is part of Jewish mysticism called Kabbalism. Some time around the renaissance, astrology and Kabbalism entered into western thought along with the influx of greek speakers from the area where the Ottomans took over. This event created an alteration in western thought. Europeans experienced an expansion of their horizons in time and space. In time, by introduction of greek history. In space, by trying to find sea passages around the Ottomans blockage of trade routes to India. Europeans sort of suddenly grew up into adulthood. This event permeated European symbolism, and gave rise to Neoplatonism. Cool stuff.

As the story goes on, Germany has always had a quasi-christian mysticism. Kabbalistic symbolism was here more cemented into what is called the Western Esoteric tradition. It has the flavor of something ancient that has recently been revealed, just like when greek science and philosophy came in during the renaissance. When the Germans threw off the Catholic church, it was accompanied by pointed apoctolypticism. When Napolean came through, people throughout Europe thought a great change was coming into human life and Napolean was its champion. They were wrong about Napolean, but the idea of the great change continued to shape expectations. And the freemasons were part of this, inheritors of the Western Esoteric Tradition, now digested into special "knowledge" that only really evolved people get to have.

Enter the big Kahuna of the progression: the Golden Dawn. This was a British group who focused a lot on the tarot. Their work was blotted out by violent events of the 20th century, only to appear again in used book stores. The only reason I would say all this is to explain my viewpoint. The flavor of age the thing has is dramatic flare. What a person actually encounters in it is not from the past, it's from deep inside... in the present.
Books about it abound. According to tradition you should go stand in front of them and wait for one to call. If you have to call: The Middle Pillar, by Israel Regardie would be a can't miss.

Now I have to check out more anime. Any suggestions?

Thanks for the explanation, but, if you can, could you link me to a represantion of the tree you were refering to? I wouldnt know how to find it, probally.

Depends of your tastes, but I recommend Naruto. It has some interesting moral conflicts to it (not many, but some) and the fights and ninja strategizing are cool and sense-making.

Thanks! I like the Sandman comics. Does that relate in any way?

This is an interesting conversation.

I have to wonder though, why the interest in Taoism if peace is not your ultimate goal?

This is an interesting conversation.

I have to wonder though, why the interest in Taoism if peace is not your ultimate goal?

It would appear that peace is the ultimate goal of any adventure. We quest for satisfaction. Satisfaction ends the quest. Out of peace comes the desire for adventure.

Maybe taoism seens a boring option only because the world hasnt battered me enough yet.

The journey you take, you take for all of us. Take peace with you like a special coin.

there are two types of goals:

*Chaos: Accomplish an objective in this world, have fun

*Order: Gain greater understanding and knowledge of the universe.
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This is 'absolutely' correct!

The Bhagavad-gita defines that the two sides of the Civil war that begins the very morning that the Gita's dialogue transpires is a battle resulting from the competion between these two forces, the sura & the asuras (the devotees of the Sun, Gods, divinity, the upholders of the Rod of Chasticement, etc vs. the meglomaniacs, self-declared Lord of all surveyed, the subjugators of all denizens).

This principle of chaos vs order is a divine play. Just as it is the nature of mechanical engineering too.

manored,

Taoism speaks on many levels at one time. It speaks about your outer life among other people and things, and it speaks about you inner life, in solitude, which is far more intimate and personal.

I believe that it tries to teach us how to reconcile our two lives going on simultaneously.

Sometime people think that peace means that our outer life will stop doing anything or wanting anything. But, if you study yourself very carefully and closely you will come to find out that is impossible.

It is your inner life that remains serene and unmoving at some very deep level, like the eye of a hurricane, and again deep investigation will finally show you this as well.

The mind is not meant to do nothing. That would indeed be boring, if not dead altogether. But your deepest, inner self does not do anything, or change in any way, it is constantly what it is, and totally satisfied as 'Being' that.

I think one of the most beautiful things in Taoism is that, it teaches us how to live with who we are, and not to fight with it.

S9

There are three types of people:

Those who can count and those who can't.

That is either fantastically off-topic or fantastically deep =)