Philosophy as Sophisticated Myth

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Reply Wed 25 Nov, 2009 09:24 pm
The One of Parmenides. Plato's Idea of the Good. Hegel's Absolute. Nietzsche 's Will-to-Power. Schopenhauer 's Will-to-Live. Bergson 's Life Force.

All of the above were arguably Theologians.

I like sophisticated myth. I also like mental-models of the human mind -- the snake that wants to catch its own tail.

Any thoughts on this "transparent mythology" ?
 
Theaetetus
 
Reply Wed 25 Nov, 2009 10:09 pm
@Reconstructo,
Well, I don't think any were theologians. Theo, in ancient Greek, means god, thus, in order for anyone to be a theologian, they would necessarily have to be speaking about gods and the properties of them.

Now if any of them had personified these concepts into gods, I would definitely have to agree with you. But what they are as they were is metaphysicians when it comes to these concepts.
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Wed 25 Nov, 2009 11:42 pm
@Theaetetus,
Indeed, sir. They were not in the literal sense theologians. I was being metaphorical.

Schopenhauer, for instance, was of course an atheist, in the traditional sense of the word. But his system can easily be viewed as the dark theology of an irrational god.

Spinoza is pretty obviously a theologian, I think.

The conception of a personal God is hardly an exhaustion of the concept God, in my opinion.

Hegel considered his system to be the conceptual expression of the Absolute Religion which was of course Christianity.

Parmenides is a stretch, I admit. But I think the attraction of the One is mystical. Why else propose something so contrary to common experience? It's as if his deductions are after the fact of being hypnotized by the grandeur of such a vision.

As far as Bergson, if the Life Force is the central reality, then the Life Force is God.

Is Nicolas of Cusa a theolgian? He saw God as approachable by means of a negative theology. He was influenced by Pseudo-Dionysus. God as the ineffable union of opposites, etc.

So where do you want to draw the line between metaphysics and theology? If you believe in a personal God, it is not likely you will find common ground with me -- which doesn't keep me from wishing you well, of course.

But my entire point is that metaphysics is largely sophisticated myth. And any system that proposes a grand unifying principle is (as i said in the original) arguably a theology -- in the loose metaphorical sense. It's appeal is that it satisfies both the critical intellect and man's numinous response to archetypes (I think the world of Jung...)

With respect,
 
PappasNick
 
Reply Thu 26 Nov, 2009 05:31 pm
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;106025 wrote:

But my entire point is that metaphysics is largely sophisticated myth.


Myth from the perspective of the originator or myth from the perspective of the consumer - or both?
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Thu 26 Nov, 2009 06:49 pm
@Reconstructo,
A fair question. One would have to answer for each individual instance. But often both, I think.

And with every religious tradition you have those who take the stories as cosmology and those who take the stories as myths.

A urinal is art, if you call it art. A metaphysical concept is myth, if you interpret it as myth.

Regards,
S.
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Mon 14 Dec, 2009 07:00 pm
@Reconstructo,
I'm waving a flag over here, for something or another. I'm a human being. I'm waving the flag of the guy who knows that we're just all waving flags.

I never met a man without a flag, except for the guy that kept it in his pocket. His notion was that he was above all this flag-waving. Well, he sure did like to fondle that flag in his pocket.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Mon 14 Dec, 2009 07:38 pm
@Reconstructo,
Suppose I wrote a post called, "philosophy as a fried egg". Would that be interesting?
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Mon 14 Dec, 2009 07:42 pm
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;111385 wrote:
I'm waving a flag over here, for something or another. I'm a human being. I'm waving the flag of the guy who knows that we're just all waving flags.

I never met a man without a flag, except for the guy that kept it in his pocket. His notion was that he was above all this flag-waving. Well, he sure did like to fondle that flag in his pocket.


Are you talking about a penis?
 
prothero
 
Reply Mon 14 Dec, 2009 11:12 pm
@Reconstructo,
Again not well thought out on my part but
Philosophy seem a search for truths using reason
and
Myth seems like a search for meaning using symbols
Not that they are not compatible on some levels.
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Mon 14 Dec, 2009 11:25 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;111402 wrote:
Suppose I wrote a post called, "philosophy as a fried egg". Would that be interesting?



Maybe not if you did it. But someone out there could pull it off.

---------- Post added 12-15-2009 at 12:25 AM ----------

prothero;111428 wrote:
Again not well thought out on my part but
Philosophy seem a search for truths using reason
and
Myth seems like a search for meaning using symbols
Not that they are not compatible on some levels.


I strongly suggest The White Mythology by Derrida. Our philosophical terms trace back to concrete roots, the same objects that myths are made of.

---------- Post added 12-15-2009 at 12:27 AM ----------

Zetherin;111403 wrote:
Are you talking about a penis?


Symbolically speaking, yes! "Jesus" was/is a slang term for penis. Lacan explores the concept of symbolic castration, as does Derrida in Spurs. You can't be a priest without a penis. And have you not noticed that philosophy is almost exclusively male?
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Fri 18 Dec, 2009 04:25 am
@Reconstructo,
The more I read about Plato and Pythagoras, the more obvious that philosophy is founded on religion. I note how much numerology was in the cradle of philosophy. Also we find more belief in the afterlife than one might have expected. Does philosophy sell itself as a thinking man's religion? Does the product work?

Is there an anti-philosophy that wears philosophy's uniform? Has ironism become a myth-buster of traditional philosophical myths in the name of the great modern myth of objective-reality-as-the-only god worth-knowing?
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Fri 18 Dec, 2009 07:03 am
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;112323 wrote:
The more I read about Plato and Pythagoras, the more obvious that philosophy is founded on religion. I note how much numerology was in the cradle of philosophy. Also we find more belief in the afterlife than one might have expected. Does philosophy sell itself as a thinking man's religion? Does the product work?

Is there an anti-philosophy that wears philosophy's uniform? Has ironism become a myth-buster of traditional philosophical myths in the name of the great modern myth of objective-reality-as-the-only god worth-knowing?


Philosophy might have arisen from religion, if that is what you mean by "founded". Astronomy arose from astrology, and chemistry from alchemy. But astronomy is not astrology, chemistry not alchemy, and philosophy not religion. Objectively speaking, of course.
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Fri 18 Dec, 2009 04:11 pm
@Reconstructo,
Taking "myth" in sense of story, I would say that stories abound in philosophy. For instance, some linguistic philosophers tell us the story that we were/are bewitched by language. The positivist told us a similar story, that metaphysics was a silly thing that an inferior sort of mind used to play with. They were heroes in this story of course, for they came along to slay the dragon of such obscurity and silliness. Has their ever been a philosophical movement without a telos? Has there ever been a philosophical movement that wasn't associated with some moral ideal?

They have offered us sublimity, clarity, worldly power, freedom. purpose, etc. I wonder if humans can be without telos. We can live by the myth (story) that man by freeing himself from myth becomes a superior being. We can suggest a counter-myth, that man is a being that is capable of repeatedly changing his guiding myth. I think that when Schopenhauer defined man as a metaphysical animal, he had something like this is mind.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Fri 18 Dec, 2009 05:09 pm
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;112469 wrote:
Taking "myth" in sense of story, I would say that stories abound in philosophy. For instance, some linguistic philosophers tell us the story that we were/are bewitched by language. The positivist told us a similar story, that metaphysics was a silly thing that an inferior sort of mind used to play with. They were heroes in this story of course, for they came along to slay the dragon of such obscurity and silliness. Has their ever been a philosophical movement without a telos? Has there ever been a philosophical movement that wasn't associated with some moral ideal?

They have offered us sublimity, clarity, worldly power, freedom. purpose, etc. I wonder if humans can be without telos. We can live by the myth (story) that man by freeing himself from myth becomes a superior being. We can suggest a counter-myth, that man is a being that is capable of repeatedly changing his guiding myth. I think that when Schopenhauer defined man as a metaphysical animal, he had something like this is mind.


But a story can be true (or false). For example that we are sometimes bewitched by language happens to be true. There are obvious examples. On the other hand, myths are not true. Indeed, that is why they are called, "myths". So, there is a clear and obvious difference between what you call "stories" in philosophy, and myths. Therefore, it is misleading to call philosophical theories, stories. Just as it would be misleading to call scientific theories, "stories". Calling philosophical theories "stories" is a conceit. But to say that they are "only stories" is simply false. Just as to say that "rational" is a term of praise is true, but to say it is only a term of praise is false. You seem to have difficulty distinguishing between saying that something is X, and saying that it is only X. Those do not mean the same thing.
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Fri 18 Dec, 2009 05:24 pm
@Reconstructo,
Truth and falsity are themselves characters in various stories. The correspondence theory of truth is one such story. In the New Testament "Truth" serves as a metaphor for Christ, self-attributed. We tell ourselves stories that are sometimes stories about stories, and so on. Stories themselves can be characters in bigger stories.

The concept of "truth" was invented. It's an abstraction with a host of meanings.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Fri 18 Dec, 2009 05:30 pm
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;112482 wrote:
Truth and falsity are themselves characters in various stories. The correspondence theory of truth is one such story. In the New Testament "Truth" serves as a metaphor for Christ, self-attributed. We tell ourselves stories that are sometimes stories about stories, and so on. Stories themselves can be characters in bigger stories.

The concept of "truth" was invented. It's an abstraction with a host of meanings.


Not particularly relevant to my point even if true. But it isn't even true that truth and falsity are "characters" in philosophical stories. In any case, you are supposing what is at issue, and therefore, you are begging the question. Let's have a sensible discussion, shall we? Let's not mush everything up. For once.
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Fri 18 Dec, 2009 06:04 pm
@Reconstructo,
Once there was a knight known as Sir Refutes A Lot. He rode his horse Logic into the Dark Forest of Philosophy. He came to slay the Dragon known as Metaphor. His horse Logic never liked the smell of Metaphor, for Logic was not a real horse but a mechanical horse, and metaphor smelled so disgustingly alive. (Sir Refutes A Lot did not create this horse, but stole it from Sir Abstract Poet, who was off making friends (breaking) a living horse known as Rhetoric.)
Sir Refutes A Lot at last came upon the Dragon Metaphor in the darkest patch of the forest and repeated his magic word: Fallacy !! Fallacy!! The Dragon Metaphor saw no threat to his territory,cracked a joke and flew away, to meet with a Lady Dragon known as Sophia.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Fri 18 Dec, 2009 07:04 pm
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;112493 wrote:
Once there was a knight known as Sir Refutes A Lot. He rode his horse Logic into the Dark Forest of Philosophy. He came to slay the Dragon known as Metaphor. His horse Logic never liked the smell of Metaphor, for Logic was not a real horse but a mechanical horse, and metaphor smelled so disgustingly alive. (Sir Refutes A Lot did not create this horse, but stole it from Sir Abstract Poet, who was off making friends (breaking) a living horse known as Rhetoric.)
Sir Refutes A Lot at last came upon the Dragon Metaphor in the darkest patch of the forest and repeated his magic word: Fallacy !! Fallacy!! The Dragon Metaphor saw no threat to his territory,cracked a joke and flew away, to meet with a Lady Dragon known as Sophia.


Not another parable, please.
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Sat 19 Dec, 2009 02:24 am
@Reconstructo,
Sir Refutes-A-Lot became more laconic as his good steed Logic began to rust. Metaphor was not merely a dragon but rather a Hydra constantly growing new heads, with new sets of eyes and different voices. What's more, Metaphor was resistant to the bright blade Fallacy, which could cut only the tautological. Sir Refutes-A-Lot was reduced to brief dismissive comments, which only stirred the Hydra to self-creation.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Sat 19 Dec, 2009 02:32 am
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;112580 wrote:
Sir Refutes-A-Lot became more laconic as his good steed Logic began to rust. Metaphor was not merely a dragon but rather a Hydra constantly growing new heads, with new sets of eyes and different voices. What's more, Metaphor was resistant to the bright blade Fallacy, which could cut only the tautological. Sir Refutes-A-Lot was reduced to brief dismissive comments, which only stirred the Hydra to self-creation.

:whistling::surrender:
 
 

 
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