Are you real or is it just me?

@Absolution phil,

Absolution;97068 wrote:

One could imagine a brain could generate its own reality and its own rules, if not already doing so.

I guess it could, if it was really bored. But I tend to take things at face value.

A human has several aspects. There is the creative aspect that conjures up new ideas and experiments. But there is also the sensory aspect. This is what the whole central nervous system is all about. Why does it exist? It exists in order to communicate with the outside world. No reason to conjure up a sensory system if it is just there to make believe.

I don't take the stance that the world is a illusion, a dream, or something that is just conjured up for the heck of it. If something exists, e.g. a sensory system, I just try to understand why. Clearly, if the human being is designed to communicate with the outside world, it has need of a sensory system to perform this function.

Rich

@Absolution phil,

Absolution;97068 wrote:

I know Descartes and Hume really wondered if they could justify anything outside of themselves. There is that whole brain in a vat kind of thought experiment. I have always wondered what fully functioning brain would observe if completely removed from all senses. There is evidence of sensation of phantom limbs and of the physical effect of dreaming. One could imagine a brain could generate its own reality and its own rules, if not already doing so.

Who put the brain in the vat, and who oversees its maintenance? And why have they put your brain in a vat? I suppose a brain in a vat could even imagine a brain in a vat imagining a brain in a vat. Imagine that. Could a brain in a vat imagine it was posting and being answered on philosophyforum.com?

@kennethamy,

This is how I perceive you or me or God etc

The essential complete you, or your whole real essence, is a field of awareness that interacts with its own self (Soul) and then becomes both mind/brain and body. In other words, you are consciousness or spirit, which then conceives, constructs, governs, and becomes the mind/brain and the body. The real you are inseparable from the patterns of intelligence that permeate every fibre of creation.

At the deepest level of existence, you are an infinite eternal Being, and you are nowhere and everywhere at the same time. There is no other "you" than the entire cosmos. The God + cosmic mind create the physical universe, and the personal mind/brain (Soul) experiences the physical universe. But in truth, the cosmic mind and our personal mind are both permeated by "God the Infinite Consciousness". "God the Infinite Consciousness" is our source, and all manifestation is inherent within it.

"God the Infinite Consciousness" observing itself creates the notion of observer, or the soul; the process of observation, or the mind; and that which is observed, or the body and the world.

The observer and the observed create relationships between themselves; this is space. The movement of these relationships creates events; this is time. But all these are none other than the "God the Infinite Consciousness" itself.

In other words, we are "God the Infinite Consciousness" with a "localized point of view" An aspect or facet of the great reality we call God. And yet our whole system of thought divides the "Great Observer God" from the observed us; it divides the "God the Infinite Consciousness" into a world of objects separated by space and time.

The "the intellect of the brain" imprisons us momentararily in a cage of fictitious images, a web of space, time, and causation. As a result, we lose touch with the true nature of our reality, which is powerful, boundless, immortal, and free.

The intellect of the brain". Mistakes the image of reality for reality itself. It squeezes the soul into the volume of a body, in the span of a lifetime, and now the spell of mortality is cast. The image of the self overshadows the unbounded Self, and we feel cut off or disconnected from "God the Infinite Consciousness", our source.

The real you is a non-material soul and therefore not subject to the limitations of space, time, matter, and causation. The soul, the spirit, the essential you, is beyond all that. In this very moment, you are surrounded by a pure consciousness. Pure consciousness illuminates and animates your mind and body, and it is powerful, nourishing, invincible, unbounded, and free. Pure consciousness, "God the Infinite

Eternal Spirit", animates and sustains everything in existence, which means it is omniscient (all knowing), omnipresent (present in all locations simultaneously), and omnipotent (all powerful). "And when we learn and grow and evolve into understanding we shall be all those things also, indeed co- creators with God.

Well that is how I see my metaphysical self in relation to you God and everything else

@TickTockMan,

TickTockMan;97098 wrote:

I have a variety of questions for you.

If that is true, then I must be one of your 'fake people'. If this is so, what is my purpose in communicating with you? I feel that I have all the features and faculties one associates with a 'real person', so how can you (or I, for that matter) tell that I am actually a 'fake person'?

Which I would think means that they must also have a 'fake' version of you. Are you okay with that idea? That there are potentially 6.8 billion or so fake versions of you?

How do you know you are not a 'fake person' in my 'personal world'? In which case, what am I doing right now? Posting to myself?

Do people who have been sent to the 'literal world' know that they once existed in a 'personal world' full of 'fake people'? If not, what is the point of the change of cast and scenery? Do you imagine that you will be treated differently when you are in the company of 'real people'? Will you treat them differently?

@#1 that is a hard thing to answer because A) for all i know you are just one of the fake people, and are just saying that because i am here to be learning a lesson.

@#2 Yeah that kind of goes with the whole idea.

@#3 I know this because right now i am thinking and typing this.

@#4 I don't know

@Zacrates,

Zacrates;97264 wrote:

@#1 that is a hard thing to answer because A) for all i know you are just one of the fake people, and are just saying that because i am here to be learning a lesson.

What lesson do you think you are learning?

Zacrates;97264 wrote:

@#3 I know this because right now i am thinking and typing this.

How do you know? As I am typing my response to you, I am also thinking, yet you proposed that I might be one of the "fake people."

@TickTockMan,

TickTockMan;97281 wrote:

How do you know? As I am typing my response to you, I am also thinking, yet you proposed that I might be one of the "fake people."

Because I am not you, and you are not me, than neither of us can truly know if one another is real or not. That is pretty much my point here.

@Zacrates,

Zacrates;97303 wrote:

Because I am not you, and you are not me, than neither of us can truly know if one another is real or not. That is pretty much my point here.

Then what is the point of creating such a complicated scenario?

Zacrates;97040 wrote:

Here is a review of what i am thinking:

I have my own world full of fake people

The real versions of these other people have their own worlds just like me

When we die in our personal worlds we are sent to the literal world where there are no fake people, only the other "real people" who have died in their personal worlds.

If you can't tell the difference between what (or who) is real or fake, what difference does it make?

How would you know you are not, in fact, living in the real world right now but are unable to distinguish it from the previous fake-populated 'personal world' where you once may have existed?

@TickTockMan,

TickTockMan;97307 wrote:

Then what is the point of creating such a complicated scenario?

If you can't tell the difference between what (or who) is real or fake, what difference does it make?

How would you know you are not, in fact, living in the real world right now but are unable to distinguish it from the previous fake-populated 'personal world' where you once may have existed?

I don't i guess.......

@Zacrates,

Zacrates;97308 wrote:

I don't i guess.......

So what is the solution then?

@TickTockMan,

TickTockMan;97310 wrote:

So what is the solution then?

Solution to what?

@Zacrates,

Zacrates;97312 wrote:

Solution to what?

Coming to terms with the idea that one might be unable to tell the difference between what is real and what is fake.

My apologies. I left my post, and my thought, half-finished, as I am at work and trying to get things wrapped up so I can go home.

@TickTockMan,

TickTockMan;97314 wrote:

Coming to terms with the idea that one might be unable to tell the difference between what is real and what is fake.
trying to get things wrapped up so I can go home.

I guess we can't tell the difference which is why i thought that this is an interesting thing to discuss.

@Zacrates,

Zacrates;97317 wrote:

I guess we can't tell the difference which is why i thought that this is an interesting thing to discuss.

It seems to be a problem without a solution then. Do you think it might be interesting to discuss how we could/should conduct our lives, in light of your conclusion that we cannot tell the difference between real and fake?

@TickTockMan,

TickTockMan;97414 wrote:

It seems to be a problem without a solution then. Do you think it might be interesting to discuss how we could/should conduct our lives, in light of your conclusion that we cannot tell the difference between real and fake?

One should just accept everything as is - subject to change.

Rich

@richrf,

richrf;97423 wrote:

One should just accept everything as is - subject to change.

Rich

What do you think, Zacrates? This is your thread.

Would you accept living your life the way richrf seems to be proposing?

@Zacrates,

Zacrates;97317 wrote:

I guess we can't tell the difference which is why i thought that this is an interesting thing to discuss.

It is all that you think it is - and whatever you think it is will probably change. If you think it is real, it is real. If you think it is fake, it is fake. And if you think what was real is now fake, then that is what it is until something happens to change your mind. And something probably will.

Rich

@TickTockMan,

TickTockMan;97314 wrote:

Coming to terms with the idea that one might be unable to tell the difference between what is real and what is fake.

My apologies. I left my post, and my thought, half-finished, as I am at work and trying to get things wrapped up so I can go home.

You don't think that a gemologist, or even the ordinary jeweler can tell the difference between a real diamond and a fake diamond? I cannot believe you really think that. He would go out of business if he couldn't tell the difference between a real diamond and a fake diamond. And so would a pawnbroker.

@kennethamy,

kennethamy;97518 wrote:

You don't think that a gemologist, or even the ordinary jeweler can tell the difference between a real diamond and a fake diamond? I cannot believe you really think that.

No. I would not think this at all. But I would like to know such a jeweler, if one existed, as my grandmother has a drawer full of costume jewelry that she no longer wants, and which I would be willing to sell to him.

I was continuing a thought that seemed to be implied by Zacrates, in his original post.

@TickTockMan,

TickTockMan;97519 wrote:

No. I would not think this at all. But I would like to know such a jeweler, if one existed, as my grandmother has a drawer full of costume jewelry that she no longer wants, and which I would be willing to sell to him.

I was continuing a thought that seemed to be implied by Zacrates, in his original post.

Any reputable jeweler can tell the difference between costume and real jewelry. (Costume jewelry is, of course, real costume jewelry, unless someone is trying to pass off a real diamond as costume jewelry). I don't understand why anyone would think that experts cannot tell the difference between fake and real. They are hired to do just that.

---------- Post added 10-14-2009 at 08:12 PM ----------

richrf;97448 wrote:

It is all that you think it is - and whatever you think it is will probably change. If you think it is real, it is real. If you think it is fake, it is fake. And if you think what was real is now fake, then that is what it is until something happens to change your mind. And something probably will.

Rich

If I think that a gem made of glass is real, then it is real? Would you care to buy a real diamond from me? I can offer you a good price.

@kennethamy,

kennethamy;97520 wrote:

If I think that a gem made of glass is real, then it is real? Would you care to buy a real diamond from me? I can offer you a good price.

Rich

Yes, if you think it is real, then it is real until you learn otherwise. And even then you might be just part of a scam. Such is life.

Rich

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