Why did God create humans?

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salima
 
Reply Sat 10 Apr, 2010 11:55 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;150470 wrote:
If Man invented God, then God must exist (or have existed). Man invented the automobile, so the automobile exists. Is this a new proof of God? I never knew that God was supposed to be an invention.


actually, i think you might have really come up with a logical answer to the question of whether or not god exists. but is there a god for every man who believes there is? or is it a collective effort, like an assembly line producing the model t?

then again, man creates stories and songs...they exist, they are real, etc

i like sometime's answer best. because if there was no one around, what is the fun of being god? maybe we were created to give god purpose...
 
KaseiJin
 
Reply Sun 11 Apr, 2010 06:46 am
@NecromanticSin,
NecromanticSin;147537 wrote:
I just got done reading Genesis, and I plan to make my way into Exodus next. . . This has only provoked more questions as I was assuming it would.

One of the questions being, why did God create humans in the first place?


The question which I'd like to ask you (and there have been some very level-headed responses here, along with jest, fun, and wild imaginations as well), NecromanticSin, is what field do you want an answer from?

If we were looking at it from the literary document field, then the answer will eventually be found as an deduced conclusion from many passages in the overall Genesis document, as supported by later understandings of Jewish religious scribal tendencies.

Of course, in that case, we are talking about YHWH, so if we were to attempt to look at it from a more realistic pragmatical field, then we might first wish to demonstrate that there is any YHWH being which existed, or exists. That will demand that we draw out that god-model form the textual documents which report on, or make claims towards that model.

So, anyway, for now, what field are you interested in looking at it in?
 
William
 
Reply Sun 11 Apr, 2010 07:50 am
@NecromanticSin,
NecromanticSin;147537 wrote:
I just got done reading Genesis, and I plan to make my way into Exodus next. So far I have gathered, God is a prick by my standards. The amount of lying, stealing, brother aganist brother, one using their servent as a baby making machine when the wife cannot have children, and even alittle bit of incest was thrown into the mix. This has only provoked more questions as I was assuming it would.

One of the questions being, why did God create humans in the first place?


Why don't we let other humans tell us that? Oops! Uh oh, how can we trust what they say? They lie, steal and kill each other. Seems like you are in a pickle here, N Sin. Then I guess you're going to have to ask god then? Uh oh, he's a prick! Damn!

Maybe if that human could speak with out lying and he didn't have to steal he wouldn't kill his brother, huh? Ya know there's a whole bunch of things he does because he is young and stupid and not nearly as smart as he thinks he is. That might have something to do with it. It's just easier to blame god and call him a prick. That solves a lot of problems, doesn't it?

He knew what he was doing; it just pisses us off because we don't know why he did it. Maybe he felt like it was just a good thing to do, huh! It felt right at the time. Trying to figure out why god does stuff is like putting puzzle together with 6 billion pieces, blindfolded. If he created us then the pieces need to figure that out for themselves.

Well, come to think about, that's what we are doing now, isn't it! We are discussing it piece to piece. We will eventually get that puzzle together. What the hell do you think we are here for. We need to communicate together and in doing that we will solve our own problems. Maybe if we just forgave each other for all the stupid crap we have done since we've been here, stop pointing guilty fingers, holding grudges, and stopped worshiping objects we might be able to do that. It's just easier to blame god. Ha! I think he understands that and why he is so forgiving.

I'm a thinkin' man is the prick! You see not all humans have those. Yep, that's what he is all right. He's his favorite toy. Like a little boy trying to figure out what that toy is good for. That's his most fun thing to do; play with it alone or with somebody. God, does he love to do that. Perhaps if he took more caution as to how he used it, things might be different. Especially in regards to those others he likes "sticking it" to; among those, woman in particular. He will most definitely lie, steal and cheat to stick it to her, huh?

Something to think about, huh! I could go on and on about how much of prick man is but I don't have that much ink in my computer, ha!

William
 
altruist80
 
Reply Fri 16 Apr, 2010 03:27 am
@NecromanticSin,
NecromanticSin;147537 wrote:
I just got done reading Genesis, and I plan to make my way into Exodus next. So far I have gathered, God is a prick by my standards. The amount of lying, stealing, brother aganist brother, one using their servent as a baby making machine when the wife cannot have children,and even alittle bit of incest was thrown into the mix. This has only provoked more questions as I was assuming it would.

One of the questions being, why did God create humans in the first place?


Why exactly are you attributing the actions of men to God? It was never said that God condoned any of these examples you gave. It sounds like you need to reread Genesis before you move on to Exodus.

This, of course, begs the question proposed by countless atheists and Christians alike of why God ALLOWS these things.

I think the question is beyond silly because if God came down and stopped every possible incidence of evil, free will would not exist. Without free will, there would be no choices, and hence no consciousness, only robotic animations.

Some hate the concept of God for this reason. The attack occurs on His omnipotence according to whatever definition of omnipotent they use. They seem to feel that an all-powerful God should not need concepts such as growth or time... that He should have bestowed perfection upon us at creation. Since this appears to violate either omnipotence or omnibenevolence, they reject the idea of a God.

I think this ignores a fundamental drive in humans. We seem to be fixers. We build, grow, explore, and learn. I find it beautiful. If a lowly mortal such myself can see the beauty and elegance in the human spirit, I must assume that the Creator thought of this long before I did. Instant perfection would totally void all of this and likely shred our existence as conscious, growing, learning, reasoning beings. If the bible can be believed, God already created that "perfect" race before He created us. It OBVIOUSLY lacked something vital, or we wouldn't be here at all.

There is an inherent problem to the concept of omnibenevolence. Such a being could have a drive to continue doing good... impossible if the entire canvas is already painted. We seem to think paradoxically as one of our flaws. I see ridiculous logic concerning ultimate power such as:

God cannot be self-limiting. (The rock so heavy He can't lift it)

All of the arguments really boil down to this one, and we are stuck having ridiculous debates as to why God cannot create paradoxes as opposed to why God created a universe free of them. If He chose to create a consistent universe, He would have to be consistent in His consistency... and on and on.

So really, the question of why God "allows" evil is meaningless and nonsensical. It just is because that is how it must be. The anthropic principle can be easily applied here. We create personal twisted definitions of omnipotence and attempt to apply it nonsensically to God.

I will borrow this from a user named Fredrik on physicsforums.com:

I'm fine with unrealistic assumptions, like "if I just ate a million hamburgers", but not self-contradictory assumptions like "if I just ate myself".


 
Night Ripper
 
Reply Fri 16 Apr, 2010 03:52 am
@trismegisto,
trismegisto;148122 wrote:
Your first mistake is assuming that you will ever be able to understand the story of Genesis. It wasn't written for you. You are completely removed from the both the authors and the audience. Nobody that reads the bible today in English can ever grasp the nuance, the intent, the mounds of information that lay implicit between the lines. Unless you have the time and patience to exhaustively study every aspect of the the people who authored those books over a 1000 years then of course it is going to seem stupid.


You know what else is stupid? Writing a subtle, nuanced book with mounds of information that will never be understood by most people because most of the ideas within it won't be relevant after a few centuries. Yes, that's definitely an idiotic way for a supreme being to author what is supposedly the most important book ever.
 
Wisdom Seeker
 
Reply Fri 16 Apr, 2010 04:04 am
@NecromanticSin,
because of his over flowing love he needs a container and that is the humans

what's the use of power who has no use?
=he created us to give his power some use

without use --> non-sense
 
Naiche
 
Reply Fri 16 Apr, 2010 04:47 am
@Wisdom Seeker,
You make the mistake of differentiating between God and man. God is inside of all of us in the form of the human spirit. Reality, as we call it, is only an experiment in consciousness. We/God created ourselves/humans in order to experience separateness/consciousness since in our pure form we are all directly interacting with each other at all times and cannot know what it feels to be separate from each other. That is God/Heaven, God being the result of the merging of spirit and Heaven being that return to the collective spirit where all things make sense and all questions are answered. A state of being where all emotional experiences are pure and collective knowledge is available to all.

To blame God for the failings of man, is like blaming your parents for your actions. Was it your fathers fault that you decided to drive drunk after last weekends party? Was it your mothers fault that you beat your wife and children? If you answer yes, then you are not allowing yourself the benefit of free will, which is an integral part of the consciousness experiment.

People rant and rave on a daily basis. Why does God allow "this" or "that" to happen!? How can He be so cruel as to allow such a horrible thing to happen!? Perhaps we should ask ourselves how We could be so cruel as to allow these things to happen. We live in an imperfect world created by the results of our own free will. We are like children who when given their freedom, burn the house down. **** happens. Consciousness and the experience of singularity is flawed, but the ride must be fun as hell or we would have stopped paying for a ticket after the first thousand years or so. You don't play a video game because everyone is happy and nice all of the time do you? That's all I have to say about that...
 
Wisdom Seeker
 
Reply Fri 16 Apr, 2010 05:00 am
@Naiche,
Naiche;152698 wrote:
You make the mistake of differentiating between God and man. God is inside of all of us in the form of the human spirit. Reality, as we call it, is only an experiment in consciousness. We/God created ourselves/humans in order to experience separateness/consciousness since in our pure form we are all directly interacting with each other at all times and cannot know what it feels to be separate from each other. That is God/Heaven, God being the result of the merging of spirit and Heaven being that return to the collective spirit where all things make sense and all questions are answered. A state of being where all emotional experiences are pure and collective knowledge is available to all.

To blame God for the failings of man, is like blaming your parents for your actions. Was it your fathers fault that you decided to drive drunk after last weekends party? Was it your mothers fault that you beat your wife and children? If you answer yes, then you are not allowing yourself the benefit of free will, which is an integral part of the consciousness experiment.

People rant and rave on a daily basis. Why does God allow "this" or "that" to happen!? How can He be so cruel as to allow such a horrible thing to happen!? Perhaps we should ask ourselves how We could be so cruel as to allow these things to happen. We live in an imperfect world created by the results of our own free will. We are like children who when given their freedom, burn the house down. **** happens. Consciousness and the experience of singularity is flawed, but the ride must be fun as hell or we would have stopped paying for a ticket after the first thousand years or so. You don't play a video game because everyone is happy and nice all of the time do you? That's all I have to say about that...


but logically speaking... that is what i see...

because of his over flowing love he needs a container and that is the humans

what's the use of power who has no use?
=he created us to give his power some use

without use --> non-sense
 
KaseiJin
 
Reply Fri 16 Apr, 2010 08:51 am
@Naiche,
Naiche;152698 wrote:
You make the mistake of differentiating between God and man. God is inside of all of us in the form of the human spirit. We/God created ourselves/humans . . .


I'm afraid that crosses itself out; as in contradiction of terms. Especially is this true in English when the word 'god' gets the capital G. Additionally, if all humans have always been gods, then the term 'god,' again, will have no advantage of meaning above the word 'human.'

It might be good to reconsider the terms.
 
HexHammer
 
Reply Fri 16 Apr, 2010 08:54 am
@NecromanticSin,
Let's not sideste this thread with too many atheistic views.

If God already had his angels, why would he create humans, well we too create new things we don't really need, but do it as a hobby.
 
Pyrrho
 
Reply Fri 16 Apr, 2010 09:07 am
@HexHammer,
HexHammer;152770 wrote:
Let's not sideste this thread with too many atheistic views.

If God already had his angels, why would he create humans, well we too create new things we don't really need, but do it as a hobby.


The trouble is, the choice of hobby tells us something about the man. Likewise, with god, and what god's hobby tells us about him/she/it/them is not pretty. Imagine a man whose hobby it is to breed animals to fight each other and to torture each other. That is god's "hobby", as you put it. Additionally, we may also say that people have hobbies because their lives lack something that they want, and the hobby is to help with this. But this means that god, if he/she/it/them has hobbies, also lacks something, and is not self-sufficient. Thus the god you are describing is very far from perfect, and given the particular choice of hobby, is downright evil. Essentially, people are worshiping a devil when they worship the creator.
 
HexHammer
 
Reply Fri 16 Apr, 2010 09:26 am
@Pyrrho,
Pyrrho;152779 wrote:
The trouble is, the choice of hobby tells us something about the man. Likewise, with god, and what god's hobby tells us about him/she/it/them is not pretty. Imagine a man whose hobby it is to breed animals to fight each other and to torture each other. That is god's "hobby", as you put it. Additionally, we may also say that people have hobbies because their lives lack something that they want, and the hobby is to help with this. But this means that god, if he/she/it/them has hobbies, also lacks something, and is not self-sufficient. Thus the god you are describing is very far from perfect, and given the particular choice of hobby, is downright evil. Essentially, people are worshiping a devil when they worship the creator.
Can't agree with this, The Lightbringer got corrupted by himself, it was not God's work, nor was it God's intend to make humans evil, it's a self taught feature sprung from our free will by eating the apple of wisdom.
 
Pyrrho
 
Reply Fri 16 Apr, 2010 09:37 am
@HexHammer,
HexHammer;152782 wrote:
Can't agree with this, The Lightbringer got corrupted by himself, it was not God's work, nor was it God's intend to make humans evil, it's a self taught feature sprung from our free will by eating the apple of wisdom.


If we take the story in Genesis seriously, God does not reveal the knowledge of good and evil (the moral law) to man at all, and simply expects obedience from man. It is not until man eats of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil that he knows what is good and what is evil (which is why he is suddenly ashamed of his nakedness after eating from the tree; which also makes no sense, because that would mean that God was wrong to have man naked before, if it is wrong to be naked).

(This is in Genesis 3, but one might as well start at the beginning, as the first two chapters are not long.)

In other words, people who do not have knowledge of good and evil are expected to act on that knowledge before they are allowed to have it, and, in fact, are forbidden to have that knowledge. What could possibly be more immoral or unreasonable than for god to do that?
 
HexHammer
 
Reply Fri 16 Apr, 2010 09:48 am
@Pyrrho,
Pyrrho;152785 wrote:
If we take the story in Genesis seriously, God does not reveal the knowledge of good and evil (the moral law) to man at all, and simply expects obedience from man. It is not until man eats of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil that he knows what is good and what is evil (which is why he is suddenly ashamed of his nakedness after eating from the tree; which also makes no sense, because that would mean that God was wrong to have man naked before, if it is wrong to be naked).

(This is in Genesis 3, but one might as well start at the beginning, as the first two chapters are not long.)

In other words, people who do not have knowledge of good and evil are expected to act on that knowledge before they are allowed to have it, and, in fact, are forbidden to have that knowledge. What could possibly be more immoral or unreasonable than for god to do that?
As you vaguely point out youself, only by eating the apple, did humans gain knowledge and understanding of emotions, of emberresment and pride which is the foundation of war, of evil ..etc ..and didn't God try to prevent that by saying Adam and Eve shouldn't eat that apple? ..so I can't see why ur so alarmed by it.
 
Pyrrho
 
Reply Fri 16 Apr, 2010 10:11 am
@HexHammer,
HexHammer;152789 wrote:
As you vaguely point out youself, only by eating the apple, did humans gain knowledge and understanding of emotions, of emberresment and pride which is the foundation of war, of evil ..etc ..and didn't God try to prevent that by saying Adam and Eve shouldn't eat that apple? ..so I can't see why ur so alarmed by it.


Adam and Eve could not possibly know that it was wrong to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil without already knowing what it was to be wrong. They could not possibly know that it was wrong to disobey god unless they knew what it meant to be wrong. And since, according to the story, god denied them that knowledge, they could not possibly know that they ought to obey god until after they got that knowledge, or, since god set it up that way, until after they ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

In other words, god expected Adam and Eve to have knowledge that god knew they did not have, and then blamed them for their actions that resulted from the ignorance in which they were kept by god.

Also, the fact that god put the tree in there shows that god is evil, as otherwise he would not have wanted to have such a thing for them to be tricked into eating of it. God wanted people to go bad, or he would not have put the tree there for them to go bad (which brings to mind another ridiculous part of the story, as having knowledge of good and evil is supposed to be a bad thing!).
 
Wisdom Seeker
 
Reply Fri 16 Apr, 2010 10:35 am
@NecromanticSin,
i think humans are just separated body of god
the humans,nature and god are just different part of a one body
because if they were all bind together, they take advantage to each other
the god's mind, the human's work, and the nature's systems act as one body
if they exist then they are fullness itself, if they are fullness itself then they fill empty

if fullness fill the emptiness and emptiness empty the fullness
then fullness must be the opposite of emptiness
if they are opposite then they must be obstacles to each other
if they are obstacle to each other then they cannot live with each other
if they cannot live each other then they will fight to each other
if they will fight each other then one will win and one will lose

so if nature comes from god and we are part of nature then we are also part of god,
we are different parts of one body, working seperately, to fill the emptiness of the universe, to fully take advantage to the universe, to make a utopia, a paradise for us.
to attain the most valuable and modest pleasure for our lives.
 
sometime sun
 
Reply Fri 16 Apr, 2010 10:37 am
@Pyrrho,
Evil is a choice or compulsion?
Can either one come first or last?
Did evil come first or last?
 
HexHammer
 
Reply Fri 16 Apr, 2010 10:47 am
@Pyrrho,
Pyrrho;152802 wrote:
Adam and Eve could not possibly know that it was wrong to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil without already knowing what it was to be wrong. They could not possibly know that it was wrong to disobey god unless they knew what it meant to be wrong. And since, according to the story, god denied them that knowledge, they could not possibly know that they ought to obey god until after they got that knowledge, or, since god set it up that way, until after they ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

In other words, god expected Adam and Eve to have knowledge that god knew they did not have, and then blamed them for their actions that resulted from the ignorance in which they were kept by god.

Also, the fact that god put the tree in there shows that god is evil, as otherwise he would not have wanted to have such a thing for them to be tricked into eating of it. God wanted people to go bad, or he would not have put the tree there for them to go bad (which brings to mind another ridiculous part of the story, as having knowledge of good and evil is supposed to be a bad thing!).
1) seems you don't really have any knowledge of the bible
2) you speak like an UFO sighter, disregarding means of simple definitions because of your forced belive in other values and definitions.
3) I will put you on ignore, since I won't waste time arguing with such lvl of arugmentation.
 
Wisdom Seeker
 
Reply Fri 16 Apr, 2010 10:55 am
@sometime sun,
sometime sun;152815 wrote:
Evil is a choice or compulsion?
Can either one come first or last?
Did evil come first or last?


Evil is the absence of good
if there is no good, there is evil
evil is also nothingness meaning they are just the absence of fullness.
 
trismegisto
 
Reply Fri 16 Apr, 2010 11:00 am
@Night Ripper,
Night Ripper;152687 wrote:
You know what else is stupid? Writing a subtle, nuanced book with mounds of information that will never be understood by most people because most of the ideas within it won't be relevant after a few centuries. Yes, that's definitely an idiotic way for a supreme being to author what is supposedly the most important book ever.


sheeple believe anything an authority figure tells them. Especially when the authority claims to have a relation with God, or Science for that matter.

Science requires just as much faith and yet sheeple blindly accept almost anything a scientist tells them.

The fault really lies with the very nature of sheeple.
 
 

 
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